RoboJoe
Well-Known Member
I'm more worried that it's the ONLY concession.
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- Thread starter Raansu
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I'm more worried that it's the ONLY concession.
Maybe you can still get your concerns in through this second survey... it's worth a try.
http://www.gamecity.ne.jp/form/doa5_londonexpo
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Someones been hiding under a rock....
Master_Thespian
Active Member
This, to me, is like when the Soulcalibur team made moves more and more unsafe until people just turtled and blocked all day. So their solution was to add guard meter, guard crush, critical finish, and whole host of other things instead of fixing the root of the problem (thankfully as of 5 they corrected this by improving frames for most of the cast and removing critical finishes). DOA's central problem is that we have holds from stun/there are too many holds. I won't deny tightening the active window and lengthening the recovery window of holds helps, too. So I'm glad they're doing that. The fact still remains that they're appearing to tap dance around the elephant in the room. Fixing that would set off a domino effect and get this game going down the right path.
Einzelkind
Active Member
I think of it more like a process. The players have to adapt to holds not being as good anymore first. If you look at the video of the London "tournament" you see that the players are still stuck in DOA4's mindset. Once people realize that the hold is already much less rewarding and even riskier they're gonna change their playstyle (at least that's what I think). I also hope that there will be more situations where the holds are rendererd useless and players will have to focus and different aspects of defense like blocking and sidestepping, but weakening the hold so much that it becomes completely useless isn't the right way either in my opinion. Personally I'd really like to see a system like DOA1's implemented where the holds get more complicated and risky in stun (more complicated inputs, shorter active window, less damage something like that).
The change back to 4 point holds is a good start and opens up so many more options for most characters. Just curious what they're going to do with the expert holds now. Having to use one more directional input doesn't really warrant more damage in my opinion.
The change back to 4 point holds is a good start and opens up so many more options for most characters. Just curious what they're going to do with the expert holds now. Having to use one more directional input doesn't really warrant more damage in my opinion.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
This is what should happen to holds when being used coming out of stun. There are several other ways of defending yourself.
Good to have 4-Point back.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
You should wait a week...
Arnell Long
Active Member
I like the fact that Hitomi has her advance hold which is her 6 Hold aka kick counter from DOA4. Basically meaning regular counters don't take away much anymore because being easy as ever to pull off, but a successful advance hold is a bit harder, thus granting you a free juggle with more damage output. Glad to see Team Ninja adjusted that...now I'm currently awaiting the E3 information while DrDogg continues to get us hype.
i dont know what the big deal is ..
the stages are narrow ...
guaranteed damage is alot more ...
the high/mid/low mixup is more due to changing height properties of moves ... (doa3 style .. if not better)
so what the hell is the point of advanced holds then ? or .. now that mid is 2 point ... what that the hell is the point of doing a less damaging hold ?
the whole point of advanced holds was to give you more reward for a more accurate guess .. and normal mid hold gave you crap health ...
like i dont mind 4 point .. but its annoying considering i really liked the new system ... and that it really did fit well and work ...
so what now ? to compensate they're gonna add more active frames ?
that brings us back to doa4 ... no1 fricken wants that ...
I can appreciate that a 4 point changes the balance as well ... genfu , leifang , and eliot for example had too many mids ... but this means theres no point in updating them ... or changing their properties ... and that kind of sucks as well ..
i really hope this decision doesnt backfire ...
not to mention that casuals are gonna get fricken pissed knowing their holds arent as useful anymore ... but who cares about 90% of the community right? ...
theres a reason we all saw doa3.1 as a great game ... and apart from the engine tweaks ... it was the most accessable .. and i think the reason was that it became 3 point ... (although at the time it was looked as a downgrade from doa2)
i dont know what to think about this anymore to be honest ...
the stages are narrow ...
guaranteed damage is alot more ...
the high/mid/low mixup is more due to changing height properties of moves ... (doa3 style .. if not better)
so what the hell is the point of advanced holds then ? or .. now that mid is 2 point ... what that the hell is the point of doing a less damaging hold ?
the whole point of advanced holds was to give you more reward for a more accurate guess .. and normal mid hold gave you crap health ...
like i dont mind 4 point .. but its annoying considering i really liked the new system ... and that it really did fit well and work ...
so what now ? to compensate they're gonna add more active frames ?
that brings us back to doa4 ... no1 fricken wants that ...
I can appreciate that a 4 point changes the balance as well ... genfu , leifang , and eliot for example had too many mids ... but this means theres no point in updating them ... or changing their properties ... and that kind of sucks as well ..
i really hope this decision doesnt backfire ...
not to mention that casuals are gonna get fricken pissed knowing their holds arent as useful anymore ... but who cares about 90% of the community right? ...
theres a reason we all saw doa3.1 as a great game ... and apart from the engine tweaks ... it was the most accessable .. and i think the reason was that it became 3 point ... (although at the time it was looked as a downgrade from doa2)
i dont know what to think about this anymore to be honest ...
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Not even. lol.
Arnell Long
Active Member
In DOA5...Holds last longer and have small windows all together...like in DOA4, you get someone in a stun but they low counter to recover thus making your advantageous situation a disadvantage because depending on the character, the person who low counter will be at an advantage...like lets say Lisa stunned Kasumi, but Kasumi low countered and proceeded with her pokes...8 times out of 10 Kasumi will win that exchange due to her being better overall and it doesn't help Lisa's recovery is horrific...
Now in DOA5 you get someone in a stun and they low counter, well, they'll be stuck in that position long enough to where you can see them and react with a free launcher without them being able to do anything but guess right the next go around. I also love the fact that in DOA5 each counter "High, Mid, Low" all look vastly different, unlike in DOA4 with some character's High and Mid looking the same and bigger character's Low counters looking like Mid counters...
Players won't be able to easily hold and get stupid amount of damage unless they advance hold or juggle. In DOA4, a well played counter and or grab took away more than most juggles lmao, so DOA5 adjusted that and is now more balanced as it shoulda been in the past, now that E3 is coming, we'll be getting more solid information to go off of instead of just an Alpha Demo.
And Emperor, the reason characters like Hitomi got Adavance Hold was because the overall damage of counters was lessen but for a more damaging hold you'll have to work a bit harder which grants you a free launcher thus adding more damage ala Bayman...basically the changes were to compliment the new Hold system in DOA5.
Now in DOA5 you get someone in a stun and they low counter, well, they'll be stuck in that position long enough to where you can see them and react with a free launcher without them being able to do anything but guess right the next go around. I also love the fact that in DOA5 each counter "High, Mid, Low" all look vastly different, unlike in DOA4 with some character's High and Mid looking the same and bigger character's Low counters looking like Mid counters...
Players won't be able to easily hold and get stupid amount of damage unless they advance hold or juggle. In DOA4, a well played counter and or grab took away more than most juggles lmao, so DOA5 adjusted that and is now more balanced as it shoulda been in the past, now that E3 is coming, we'll be getting more solid information to go off of instead of just an Alpha Demo.
And Emperor, the reason characters like Hitomi got Adavance Hold was because the overall damage of counters was lessen but for a more damaging hold you'll have to work a bit harder which grants you a free launcher thus adding more damage ala Bayman...basically the changes were to compliment the new Hold system in DOA5.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
I really don't think he's trying to hype anyone...He's just telling people to wait to see the progress with E3. I'm curious to see how much has actually changed.
i agree with everything you said !
so why the step back ?! ... i dont like it ...
the 3 points are clear to distinguish now .. and the recovery is long enough to either extend stun or punish with a throw .. or carry on attacking like you said if the opponent went low ... so ... why the hell go back to 4 point ?
the system tweak was already solid enough ..
im not happy with this decision and I hope they bring it back to 3 point + advanced hold
Arnell Long
Active Member
There are various reasons why they went back to 4-Point Holds, but the one I like most is because some people want Holds removed in Stuns all together while others still want Stuns in but with some tweaking...so by adding in 4-Point Holds to the already improved Hold System, it'll lessen the chances of people Holding out of every Stun, thus making both sides happy...or at least it's a step forward.
And Rannsu, I'm also itching to see what other tweaks they made to the game since it's Alpha showing.
And Rannsu, I'm also itching to see what other tweaks they made to the game since it's Alpha showing.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
No, I'm hyping.
You're not going to happy with anything the rest of us consider a step forward, just like we're not happy with the Alpha demo that you see as a huge step forward. It's clear that we want two different games. Assuming the rest of us get the game we want come September, at least you'll still have the Alpha demo to play.
Einzelkind
Active Member
The 3 point holds take away a huge amount of mix-up possibilities. High low mix-ups in general aren't that good in DOA because the low hold evades highs, mid mix-ups don't work as well in the demo because you can counter both with the same input and there aren't as many options to work around the counter as there were in DOA3, so there's only mid low and high mid left. Maybe I'm missing something here, but if they keep the hold properties like they're in the demo, I only see the attacker benefitting from bringing back the 4 point hold, because it makes guessing for the defending player harder (see Rikuto's sticky).
We'll have to wait and see what happens to the mid expert holds. They at least should make them harder to use if they keep them around or everyone will just use those all of the time (if I remember correctly their active window is bigger than the normal holds' in the demo? That should be changed) like it was with Bayman's and Leifang's mid advanced holds in DOA4.
Arnell Long
Active Member
Dont get me wrong guys.. dont mind the 4 point in general...
I just liked the new emphasis on high/mid/low..
Like whats the point of normal mid p or k holds if advanced holds serve the same purpose with the same risk but more reward...
I think having both is stupid..
Unless like.. advanced hold gives u crazy damage at the risk of critical threshold launch then maybe.. but then no1 wants crazy damage holds... And if advanced leads to threshold that would screw with stun count for the attacker as he might reset or knockdown instead.. ruining offensive potential in another way..
Another way to play it out is to maybe add more recovery to advanced holds.. but i personally think the current window is long enough...
I understand the offensive potential in 4 point.. and the more options in attack...
But you cannot distinguish mid p or mid k hold... Nor can you distinguish norm/advanced holds.. So if u see it u might as well go high or low anyway... Atleast thats how i see it..
Im gonna stay neutral on this n see how team ninja play it out..
But like i said i did like the system they had in alpha and i had no problems with it..
I just liked the new emphasis on high/mid/low..
Like whats the point of normal mid p or k holds if advanced holds serve the same purpose with the same risk but more reward...
I think having both is stupid..
Unless like.. advanced hold gives u crazy damage at the risk of critical threshold launch then maybe.. but then no1 wants crazy damage holds... And if advanced leads to threshold that would screw with stun count for the attacker as he might reset or knockdown instead.. ruining offensive potential in another way..
Another way to play it out is to maybe add more recovery to advanced holds.. but i personally think the current window is long enough...
I understand the offensive potential in 4 point.. and the more options in attack...
But you cannot distinguish mid p or mid k hold... Nor can you distinguish norm/advanced holds.. So if u see it u might as well go high or low anyway... Atleast thats how i see it..
Im gonna stay neutral on this n see how team ninja play it out..
But like i said i did like the system they had in alpha and i had no problems with it..
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Having both is fine. 4 point hold with the current advanced hold can still work. The concept hasn't changed any. You have the 4 basic holds, but if you want a bigger hold then do the advanced hold (such as Hitomi's mid kick hold launcher or Busa's izuna).
And why is there a need to distinguish between a normal/advanced hold? A hold is a hold, if you see the animation then react to it. I don't care if its a normal or advanced, I'm going to treat it like a hold.