The Insane Combos in Certain Tag Setups.

[Crext]

Hoi, I've just gotten my ass handed to me by some good and some lesser skilled people out there on the interwebs. Needless to say I am looking for advice to tackle the scary Momiji x Rachel combo, where a simple 1 hit level 1 crit can cost you 80% of your life (right?) or more unless they miss, it seems.

That is a lot of guaranteed damage, and I know there are other combos too that are equally braindead and damaging (the leifang kicks, etc.)

Just wondering if you people could share the relaunche moves for each character, and what combos you've managed to do the most damage with?

 

[Chapstick]

Relaunches-

Ayane- PPPK is a good simple one tagging in the other character right after the first kick connects, that's my go-to but I'm sure iHajinShinobi or someone else has other good ones
Kasumi- PP7K(or PKK7K)~6P+KKK; PKK6K

Alternating those into a long chain works well. When the opponent is too low and you end with Kasumi, use 4PKK because it can catch someone practically lying on the ground. It's not 80% but it's still good.

.. I actually just use mostly Kasumi and Ayane so I can't really be more helpful than that, sorry.

 

[Cla]

All Tag Team combinations have insane combos...

...It's up to you to experiment with your chars and figure them out.

In regards to dealing with Rachel x Momiji... let me give you some tips. (I am a Rachel x Momiji player) Stand Guard a lot against Momiji. The only throw from her you have to worry about is her throw after she flips in the air. (this throw leads into a full combo) Momiji doesn't have any terribly threatening lows either, but can try to score a quick stun by doing 1P2K and then Tag Burst. (both of Rachel's Tag attacks are Middle Punches) If she does 1P2K with no Tag, the stun does not last long enough for her to get another hit in. Against Rachel, just overwhelm her with speed and don't do a standing Hold unless you absolutely have to.

In regards to chars' relaunchers... that would take a while to compile that list. (you would have also have to specify the relaunchers that can cause wallsplat, thus ending a combo early if used near a wall) Off the top of my head...

Hitomi - 8PKP, 9PK, 7Pk
Kokoro - 6KP (can wallsplat I think)

Yeah, that's all I got off the top of my head...

he scary Momiji x Rachel combo, where a simple 1 hit level 1 crit can cost you 80% of your life (right?) or more unless they miss, it seems.

I would not say 80% off a level 1 crit launch. I think maybe more like 60% and that's only off a light weight. I will test this to be sure though.

 

[Crext]

That is some good info, thanks. I will test it out.

It is scary to see some even go past the 80% (even though it is crit 3) in that video. But I guess it is fair if everyone can do it, though not very fun to watch. Getting a Tekken X Street Fighter wipe of the game being about hitting the opponent 3 times and the game is over.

 

[d3v]

I dunno about "not being fun to watch." Fast paced, high risk, high damage seems to be a favorite of stream monsters everywhere.

 

[Cla]

These giant combos are the reason no one plays Tag seriously, by the way. "Seriously" as in competitively and in tournaments. I would love to see a major Tag tournament every now and then to see what kinds of crazy combos the hardcore DOA players can come up with, but I understand why people don't like the idea of losing a char over 1 or 2 mistakes.

 

[Crext]

These giant combos are the reason no one plays Tag seriously, by the way. "Seriously" as in competitively and in tournaments.

Aye, that makes sense. I can't wait for single player to get back up. I've had it with some people who I've been outplaying completely, but make these insane comebacks because of that 1 pretraining air juggle. It is hard to respect the defeat if that is the only thing they do. I usually go away with "ah he did that well"-thinking, but these combos are simply too lame and come down to "he hit me once...". It is hard to take any other knowledge away than "screw holds, screw throws, fuck everything, just focus on that one move that give that 1 hit, and that is all that matters".

 

[synce]

These giant combos are the reason no one plays Tag seriously, by the way. "Seriously" as in competitively and in tournaments. I would love to see a major Tag tournament every now and then to see what kinds of crazy combos the hardcore DOA players can come up with, but I understand why people don't like the idea of losing a char over 1 or 2 mistakes.

Such giant combos exist in TT2 and Marvel yet the competitive scene trumps DOA's...

 

[Cla]

Aye, that makes sense. I can't wait for single player to get back up. I've had it with some people who I've been outplaying completely, but make these insane comebacks because of that 1 pretraining air juggle. It is hard to respect the defeat if that is the only thing they do. I usually go away with "ah he did that well"-thinking, but these combos are simply too lame and come down to "he hit me once...". It is hard to take any other knowledge away than "screw holds, screw throws, fuck everything, just focus on that one move that give that 1 hit, and that is all that matters".

Every element of the game is important, but in the end, dealing damage is the most important. Your opponent may be only capable of big damage combos, but that does outweigh everything else you bring to the table. If you added big combos to your repertoire, that in combination with everything else you have been bringing to the table should always overcome the fact that all they have is a big combo.

Such giant combos exist in TT2 and Marvel yet the competitive scene trumps DOA's...

The explanation to this is ugly, but nevertheless true: DOA is the kind of game that appeals more to the less-hardcore fighting gamers who don't understand or straight-up hate that it is a perfectly normal part of fighting games that you lose in only 1 or 2 mistakes. Hardcore fighting gamers want that challenge and intensity, and so TTT2 and MvC does appeal to them greatly. Though to be fair, TTT2 died off because even the hardcore fighting gamers found it was WAY TOO challenging. I really did want to get into TTT2, but the game made me feel like you could not have a life AND be good at it because there was an insane amount of information you had to learn, and nearly every single little aspect of the game required you to pour hours upon hours to commit it to muscle memory.

 

[d3v]

The explanation to this is ugly, but nevertheless true: DOA is the kind of game that appeals more to the less-hardcore fighting gamers who don't understand or straight-up hate that it is a perfectly normal part of fighting games that you lose in only 1 or 2 mistakes. Hardcore fighting gamers want that challenge and intensity, and so TTT2 and MvC does appeal to them greatly.

I take issue with this as it seems that you're trying to say that DOA isn't a game to be taken seriously at competitive levels by those who play fighting games competitively - a sentiment that goes beyond the very reason that FSD exists in the first place.

Though to be fair, TTT2 died off because even the hardcore fighting gamers found it was WAY TOO challenging. I really did want to get into TTT2, but the game made me feel like you could not have a life AND be good at it because there was an insane amount of information you had to learn, and nearly every single little aspect of the game required you to pour hours upon hours to commit it to muscle memory.

Tekken dying has nothing to do with combo length and everything to do with how Namco hasn't really done anything fresh with the series for 3 games now.

Aye, that makes sense. I can't wait for single player to get back up. I've had it with some people who I've been outplaying completely, but make these insane comebacks because of that 1 pretraining air juggle. It is hard to respect the defeat if that is the only thing they do. I usually go away with "ah he did that well"-thinking, but these combos are simply too lame and come down to "he hit me once...". It is hard to take any other knowledge away than "screw holds, screw throws, fuck everything, just focus on that one move that give that 1 hit, and that is all that matters".

I disagree. "Outplay" means that at that one most crucial moment, your opponent was able to capitalize with the one option that they needed to use. If you weren't able to respect the fact that your opponent had that option, then sad to say, you're the lesser player for not being able to do so.

You have to remember 2 things. First, competitive players aren't looking for "intense back and forth fights". Rather we want to be able to finish our fights in the quickest, least stressful, least risky way possible. Second, the game doesn't judge matches by, who used more of the system, or who held more, or who countered more. All it knows is winning or losing.

 

[Cla]

I take issue with this as it seems that you're trying to say that DOA isn't a game to be taken seriously at competitive levels by those who play fighting games competitively - a sentiment that goes beyond the very reason that FSD exists in the first place.

I'm not saying DOA doesn't have it's hardcore players or that the game is not competitive. (but be careful with the argument you are trying to pursue with that sentence. Remember that DOA has never made it as an official Evo game, which is the gesture of true acceptance from the hardcore community) What I was saying is that the reason big combos are not a turn off to the fans of MvC and TTT2 is because those games are typically played by hardcore fighting gamers who understand that big combos are just a normal part of fighting games. It's unfortunate, but DOA tends to attract the not-as-hardcore players who don't understand this. The kind of players who look at long combos as "cheap". The kind of players who look at combos that involve relaunching with the same attack as "spamming". The kind of players who make the same mistake again and again and when their opponent capitalizes appropriately each time, you hear "Stop doing the same thing!" from them. (I just did a match playing as Rachel where someone would immediately Hold EVERY time they were stunned. So I kept doing the same best possible Rachel throw combo every time. And I could hear him over the mic "OMG STOP DOING THE SAME THING". Oh the irony.)

And I'm not saying that these players don't exist for other games. It's just that... as apparent on the FSD forums... DOA has much higher % of these kinds of players. And in a culture where majority rules, this is why it seems like DOA's long combos are a problem to its fans. But for me and the other hardcore DOA players, Tag mode's big combos are really not a problem (because we understand it's all fair game), and are actually a welcome change of pace because of the thrilling intensity that comes from knowing a single mistake will cost you a round. But unfortunately, it would seem we hardcore players are a minority in the entire community of people who like DOA.

Tekken dying has nothing to do with combo length and everything to do with how Namco hasn't really done anything fresh with the series for 3 games now.

I didn't mean for my paragraph structure to imply I was saying the long combos were why TTT2 died. I meant for the "too challenging" part to be a follow up to the idea of hardcore fighting gamers looking for games with challenge in general. The point I meant to get across was that TTT2 died because the game insists upon being way too challenging with how you have to memorize tons and tons and tons of frame data and tons and tons of little things about every single character and every single situation and tons and tons and tons of specific punishes. The game expected you to remember an absurd amount of information, and expected you to pour in A LOT of time to learn all this information, and A LOT MORE time to apply it to muscle memory. It was too much even for many hardcore fighting gamers. One example of proof: Despite the fact that TTT2 doubled the sales of Persona 4: Arena, there were actually a lot more entrants for Persona 4 at Evo 2013. I believe TTT2 was actually the smallest showing of the Evo 2013 roster.

 

[d3v]

The problem is that you seem to be saying that we should accommodate these players when the better choice would be to educate them.

 

[synce]

I'm of the mindset that DOA could definitely attract a bigger audience if tag was the tourney standard. No danger zones, no need for CB or stuns, just nice big juicy punishment for the lesser player.

 

[Cla]

The problem is that you seem to be saying that we should accommodate these players when the better choice would be to educate them.

?

Which players? Accommodate how? I don't remember saying something like that. Or if I did imply it, I didn't mean to.

I'm of the mindset that DOA could definitely attract a bigger audience if tag was the tourney standard. No danger zones, no need for CB or stuns, just nice big juicy punishment for the lesser player.

This could certainly be true. But I think Tag combos would have to be toned down a little bit if Tag became the main mode of play.

 

[d3v]

No, it's tag. By it's very nature alone you're going to need extended combos because you need to take down twice the amount of life as solo. You have to remember that something that does 80% damage only really does 40% on total life.

 

[Aven Kujo-Gin]

This is why I don't take tag seriously, this is not fun at all.

And this is just an example, I saw combos that start with a launcher in NH taking like 50% of the life.

 

[StrikerSashi]

That's very fun. I don't take it seriously, but it's very fun.

 

[Marcio]

Soul Calibur 4 was part of the EVO for 4 consecutive years and this game has no 80%-combos.
What I wanna say is: The amount of damage you can do with one combo has nothing to do with the success
of a fighting game in the competitive scene.
In SF3 you couldn't do more than 50% damage but it stilll was a very successful competitive game.

 

[StrikerSashi]

SCIV banned Hilde.

 

[Marcio]

Hilde got banned because she could ring-out you from the middle of the stage with her
famous "doom combo".