Balance The Karate Master
- Thread starter Zeo
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TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
@Saber I'll knock this shit out the park real quick.
6P+K and 4K are things you and me are probably never going to agree on. Regardless, the stun of 6P+K would not be THAT bad, especially considering instant holding out of it dwindles it down to +13 which is a jab for him. That's still a guess, and it's SUPPOSED to be a whiff punishment tool. This makes him unique in what he does. If you wait too long also you'll still lose the follow ups. He needs moves to instill fear and as a 14i whiff punisher that starts STUN GAME, he'll get that. People yell about his stun to launch game all of the time, well give him the chance. As for the damage, he's a heavy hitter. I think the damage buff is fair since it doesn't overtake 236P (or come close). It's just like Hayate's 8P+KP being a little more powerful than his regular stuns because that's HIS thing.
As for 4K, I'm bringing 33K, 7K and Hayate into this situation. Launchers, SHOULD. MAKE. SENSE. Lets break down 4K. 4K has a large range, but lower base damage and usability than 33K. 33K is FASTER, MORE DAMAGING, and it has better juggle potential. It's better in every way except range. That being said, no matter how fast 4K is, it will never out damage 33K. For that sacrifice of more than 2 things, it should have one more perk. Speeding it up means a faster launcher that's more unsafe but has a large range. If you use it over 33K you sacrifice damage and juggle potential. Make sense? This would be better to show in Vanilla gravity for sure though.
7K was picked up for a buff because even as a low crush launcher, Hayate's 8K is useful. This one is that same thing but lacking in juggle damage. The adjustment of the heights are to make it feel more useful when it's thrown out but the only reason I'd agree with you is because I like 4K and 33K better visually anyway. Being that it's slower, it should be reasonably better.
That's how Hayate's launchers worked in DOA4. 33K was low as hell for a launcher but the fastest speed. 9K was the middle ground, not too good but definitely reliable. 8K (4.0 only when it was mid) was clearly the best launcher in his arsenal for sure at the sacrifice of speed. This should be the breeding ground for launchers. Making a comparison, what is that launcher doing that the others aren't. Speed should be a major determining factor but there are others. This is my reason for 4K 13i, in a word: Risk vs Reward.
P+K follows suit since it's already 20i. Even with the follow up it's not that serious. Kokoro's 7P has a 2KP follow up. Helena has follow ups too... so if you're gunna complain about follow ups, start there.
4PP I don't agree with you on so I'm leaving it but if they don't take that idea, it's not that serious.
6KK, for a knockdown this is definitely fine. Agreed though that more characters should have this property. Hayate already does though (9PP uncharged). I at least want that safety on 6KK though, even if the 2 in 1 doesn't come.
Ein does need the stun so he can play his "almighty stun to launch game" in the first place. Like Hayate and Ryu, I'm trying to give him a solid mid kick that can give him his better launchers right then and there (4K/33K/4H+K/6H+K/9P). If I can get him +18 (+16 in reality), I'm solid. 9P into BT cancel PP6PK would be solid. 4H+K and 6H+K (with height buffs) would be solid. 4K and 33K would be solid as well.
On NH though, this is to add a 50/50 to his whiff punishment game. Given the same stun quality as 6P+K (minus the unSEable stun), if he can have only +13 off of it on NH, i'll be solid. Right now, were just aiming high. I'm not completely disagreeing with you on the 2 in 1, just on him not getting better stuns to work with.
For 6P+K unnecessary I agree. For 4K it'd be fine, in fact I recently picked up that it might be true already. I'll have to try it on Brad today again.
9K/3KK - Thank you <3
4K, I'll just hit this one again. It's still not topping out 33K. It stands.
7K: "Not necessary when 33K is a far better option.". This is a stupid argument against a slower launcher becoming better than a faster one, but like I said. I don't like this one very much, mostly because Hayate has it too... We'll see.
WR K - The juggle you placed isn't even the max damage juggle. 3KK, PP6PK wouldn't really work out though. I'm dropping it because the hitbox of 3K was only consistent in a juggle in DOA4 because of how WR K launched. If anything, I'll ask for a buff to the 3KK relaunch which will fix the problem and give PP6PK back in WR K's case. Regardless, it doesn't increase the damage by much but it adds a stylish juggle.
Not necessary but well appreciated as a change. It's staying.
On NH, 8K and like moves guarantee nothing on highest SE, not that it's useless though. I'll be willing to drop the 8K SD but know that this was made in comparison to Hayabusa. His 4H+K guarantees both 666P and 6KK. This basically would create the same situation for Ein except Hayabusa would still be out damaging him by a long shot (3P, 8K, 3KK = 3P, 4H+K, 6KK and 3P, 8K, 33K, = 3P, 4H+K, 666P). Difference is, 8K would be SEable down to 4K which is even less guaranteed damage. I'll let @Zeo make the call on this part of it.
As for the safety, there's many safe launchers in this game and the only consistent juggle that this one offers on NH/CH is 46P/236P. It's not that serious, but for a disadvantage guard break, this isn't doing anything but getting him space when people are too close on him. He's not allowed to attack after using it at the wall. So it's not real guard pressure. I'm sticking with this one.
9KK/3KKK cannot be delayed. If you were to 3KKK, that means if you DO land 3KKK, you're generally not getting anything. PLUS 9KK/3KKK jail so there's no mix-up on it either. Basically by sacrificing the possibility at a juggle (besides on NH). Now if 9KK didn't jail and was two mids, I'd understand because then there's a REAL mix-up. Otherwise, it's just a sacrifice at damage. Regardless, it was a typo anyway. I want -6.
Hitomi has tracking from her PP strings. If her PPP was safe it'd be stupid. If Ein gets PP4P or PP6K (goes into H+K but only the mid kick part), then I'll settle for it being fully unsafe. This is it.
7P guaranteeing 22 damage isn't that serious and even at the wall it's not much. This was done because 7P is high anyway. I'll drop it though...
3P. If this was a high crush, i'd agree. Otherwise, no. If you get hit by this, you simply shouldn't be at disadvantage especially when unlike Hayate, Kasumi's and really anyone else's 6P's are faster and have follow ups, his is stand alone. Hayabusa's is just good. 13i, deep stun allowing any height of a launch on highest SE and instant hold, AND a cb. +1 is fair. +0 is pushing it but also accepted. -2 is fucking stupid for hitting someone for not blocking.
1K6P - Yea I wrote that wrong. I wanted frame advantage, not follow ups. +2 is good. +1 is more than enough to continue pressure if I see someone likes not guarding. More importantly, straight advantage not a stun.
PP4P. This comes, safe PPP goes back to unsafe.
1K2K/2K6K - 2K6K would probably be less to worry about than so I'm still down with it. 1K2K I thought was too much because of the double low. If I get enough support on 2K6K I'll keep it, otherwise I'll drop both. All in favor?
1P. Ten talked to you about this. Hitomi's 1P is a +19 and a trip stun on CH+. You hold out of that, you give her more advantage. With Ein, he'd also get a height buff from the trip stun if he launched with 4K. We don't need this. The light stun is like Hayate's, gives you space.
236H+K/214H+K/Running H+K - No problems here either, not my idea. Credit Zeo.
6P+K and 4K are things you and me are probably never going to agree on. Regardless, the stun of 6P+K would not be THAT bad, especially considering instant holding out of it dwindles it down to +13 which is a jab for him. That's still a guess, and it's SUPPOSED to be a whiff punishment tool. This makes him unique in what he does. If you wait too long also you'll still lose the follow ups. He needs moves to instill fear and as a 14i whiff punisher that starts STUN GAME, he'll get that. People yell about his stun to launch game all of the time, well give him the chance. As for the damage, he's a heavy hitter. I think the damage buff is fair since it doesn't overtake 236P (or come close). It's just like Hayate's 8P+KP being a little more powerful than his regular stuns because that's HIS thing.
As for 4K, I'm bringing 33K, 7K and Hayate into this situation. Launchers, SHOULD. MAKE. SENSE. Lets break down 4K. 4K has a large range, but lower base damage and usability than 33K. 33K is FASTER, MORE DAMAGING, and it has better juggle potential. It's better in every way except range. That being said, no matter how fast 4K is, it will never out damage 33K. For that sacrifice of more than 2 things, it should have one more perk. Speeding it up means a faster launcher that's more unsafe but has a large range. If you use it over 33K you sacrifice damage and juggle potential. Make sense? This would be better to show in Vanilla gravity for sure though.
7K was picked up for a buff because even as a low crush launcher, Hayate's 8K is useful. This one is that same thing but lacking in juggle damage. The adjustment of the heights are to make it feel more useful when it's thrown out but the only reason I'd agree with you is because I like 4K and 33K better visually anyway. Being that it's slower, it should be reasonably better.
That's how Hayate's launchers worked in DOA4. 33K was low as hell for a launcher but the fastest speed. 9K was the middle ground, not too good but definitely reliable. 8K (4.0 only when it was mid) was clearly the best launcher in his arsenal for sure at the sacrifice of speed. This should be the breeding ground for launchers. Making a comparison, what is that launcher doing that the others aren't. Speed should be a major determining factor but there are others. This is my reason for 4K 13i, in a word: Risk vs Reward.
P+K follows suit since it's already 20i. Even with the follow up it's not that serious. Kokoro's 7P has a 2KP follow up. Helena has follow ups too... so if you're gunna complain about follow ups, start there.
4PP I don't agree with you on so I'm leaving it but if they don't take that idea, it's not that serious.
6KK, for a knockdown this is definitely fine. Agreed though that more characters should have this property. Hayate already does though (9PP uncharged). I at least want that safety on 6KK though, even if the 2 in 1 doesn't come.
Ein does need the stun so he can play his "almighty stun to launch game" in the first place. Like Hayate and Ryu, I'm trying to give him a solid mid kick that can give him his better launchers right then and there (4K/33K/4H+K/6H+K/9P). If I can get him +18 (+16 in reality), I'm solid. 9P into BT cancel PP6PK would be solid. 4H+K and 6H+K (with height buffs) would be solid. 4K and 33K would be solid as well.
On NH though, this is to add a 50/50 to his whiff punishment game. Given the same stun quality as 6P+K (minus the unSEable stun), if he can have only +13 off of it on NH, i'll be solid. Right now, were just aiming high. I'm not completely disagreeing with you on the 2 in 1, just on him not getting better stuns to work with.
For 6P+K unnecessary I agree. For 4K it'd be fine, in fact I recently picked up that it might be true already. I'll have to try it on Brad today again.
9K/3KK - Thank you <3
4K, I'll just hit this one again. It's still not topping out 33K. It stands.
7K: "Not necessary when 33K is a far better option.". This is a stupid argument against a slower launcher becoming better than a faster one, but like I said. I don't like this one very much, mostly because Hayate has it too... We'll see.
WR K - The juggle you placed isn't even the max damage juggle. 3KK, PP6PK wouldn't really work out though. I'm dropping it because the hitbox of 3K was only consistent in a juggle in DOA4 because of how WR K launched. If anything, I'll ask for a buff to the 3KK relaunch which will fix the problem and give PP6PK back in WR K's case. Regardless, it doesn't increase the damage by much but it adds a stylish juggle.
Not necessary but well appreciated as a change. It's staying.
On NH, 8K and like moves guarantee nothing on highest SE, not that it's useless though. I'll be willing to drop the 8K SD but know that this was made in comparison to Hayabusa. His 4H+K guarantees both 666P and 6KK. This basically would create the same situation for Ein except Hayabusa would still be out damaging him by a long shot (3P, 8K, 3KK = 3P, 4H+K, 6KK and 3P, 8K, 33K, = 3P, 4H+K, 666P). Difference is, 8K would be SEable down to 4K which is even less guaranteed damage. I'll let @Zeo make the call on this part of it.
As for the safety, there's many safe launchers in this game and the only consistent juggle that this one offers on NH/CH is 46P/236P. It's not that serious, but for a disadvantage guard break, this isn't doing anything but getting him space when people are too close on him. He's not allowed to attack after using it at the wall. So it's not real guard pressure. I'm sticking with this one.
9KK/3KKK cannot be delayed. If you were to 3KKK, that means if you DO land 3KKK, you're generally not getting anything. PLUS 9KK/3KKK jail so there's no mix-up on it either. Basically by sacrificing the possibility at a juggle (besides on NH). Now if 9KK didn't jail and was two mids, I'd understand because then there's a REAL mix-up. Otherwise, it's just a sacrifice at damage. Regardless, it was a typo anyway. I want -6.
Hitomi has tracking from her PP strings. If her PPP was safe it'd be stupid. If Ein gets PP4P or PP6K (goes into H+K but only the mid kick part), then I'll settle for it being fully unsafe. This is it.
7P guaranteeing 22 damage isn't that serious and even at the wall it's not much. This was done because 7P is high anyway. I'll drop it though...
3P. If this was a high crush, i'd agree. Otherwise, no. If you get hit by this, you simply shouldn't be at disadvantage especially when unlike Hayate, Kasumi's and really anyone else's 6P's are faster and have follow ups, his is stand alone. Hayabusa's is just good. 13i, deep stun allowing any height of a launch on highest SE and instant hold, AND a cb. +1 is fair. +0 is pushing it but also accepted. -2 is fucking stupid for hitting someone for not blocking.
1K6P - Yea I wrote that wrong. I wanted frame advantage, not follow ups. +2 is good. +1 is more than enough to continue pressure if I see someone likes not guarding. More importantly, straight advantage not a stun.
PP4P. This comes, safe PPP goes back to unsafe.
1K2K/2K6K - 2K6K would probably be less to worry about than so I'm still down with it. 1K2K I thought was too much because of the double low. If I get enough support on 2K6K I'll keep it, otherwise I'll drop both. All in favor?
1P. Ten talked to you about this. Hitomi's 1P is a +19 and a trip stun on CH+. You hold out of that, you give her more advantage. With Ein, he'd also get a height buff from the trip stun if he launched with 4K. We don't need this. The light stun is like Hayate's, gives you space.
236H+K/214H+K/Running H+K - No problems here either, not my idea. Credit Zeo.
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TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
I swear it tripped yesterday on CH in the lab. Ok you got me, I still don't think Ein should have it though. Give him that trip stun and people are gunna have a little trouble with 1P, 4K. I'm down if ya'll are but... it's just something to be careful about.
@Saber I skipped over another explanation and forgot to thank you for your opinion. So thank you.
As for 6PP. Saying that's like PPP is like saying PP6P for Hayate is like his 9PP. The main reasons I brought up 6PP for Ein are three things:
1. To sever this shared moves bond between a Ninja and a Karate Master.
2. To open up room in Hayate's move list for something new with the 9P input. (See the Hayate list for my idea).
3. To let Ein get the max potential out of the 9PP string 2 in 1 considering he has no wall blow back on 6P. It comes together great. Yea he doesn't need it but it'd help his wall game a little allowing him to instill some real fear at the wall from 6KK and 6PP.
No one can say Ein doesn't have wall pressure anyway. 46P/236P/3KK into the wall is probably anyone's worst nightmare.
@Saber I skipped over another explanation and forgot to thank you for your opinion. So thank you.
As for 6PP. Saying that's like PPP is like saying PP6P for Hayate is like his 9PP. The main reasons I brought up 6PP for Ein are three things:
1. To sever this shared moves bond between a Ninja and a Karate Master.
2. To open up room in Hayate's move list for something new with the 9P input. (See the Hayate list for my idea).
3. To let Ein get the max potential out of the 9PP string 2 in 1 considering he has no wall blow back on 6P. It comes together great. Yea he doesn't need it but it'd help his wall game a little allowing him to instill some real fear at the wall from 6KK and 6PP.
No one can say Ein doesn't have wall pressure anyway. 46P/236P/3KK into the wall is probably anyone's worst nightmare.
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ScattereDreams
Well-Known Member
Well I'll say I do agree that if Ein's 4K goes back to being i13 or i14 (whatever it was) then it doesn't need to be a a NH launcher. It should go back to being a flop knock down if the opponent doesn't tech immediately like in 4.1. Because of the speed, range, and hitbox of 4K you were always using it to CH launch your opponent. Now why 6P+K being i14 and causing a unshakable stun is necessary because it was his main whiff punish tool used to get in and start his offense. Like said, Ein isn't a mix up heavy character, and even though 236P is i14 it knocks the opponent down which resets everything. With the current Ein you're not always going to win relying on the possibility that your opponent is always going to whiffing moves.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Well the thing is I don't want 4K to be that low on usability.
Why not make it lift stun or SEable guts stun (Kokoro's 6K) on NH like 8K for Kasumi and 8K for Rig? That way nothing is guaranteed but he can at least work with it.
Even with the launcher honestly, he's only doing like what on NH... 4K, 6KK. So what is that? Someone find out the damage then compare it to 46P and 236P... if it doesn't beat those, lets talk. If he does, then I'll agree on dropping that NH launch period and going back to the DOA4 knockdown.
[Edit] So here's the low down. 4K is 25 damage on NH. 6KK is 24+28. On NH scaling is 100%, 50%, 40%. We skip 50% cause there's no stun game. So in the end the juggle is 25+9+11. This comes out to 45. In other words, he's matching 236P. I still don't think it's that serious but I doubt anyone would agree with me. I aim high.
So yea I think the lift stun is the best fit.
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Zeo
Well-Known Member
@Saber Just gonna leave this tag here to get your attention as I'm addressing and responding to you primarily and using some of Takeda's quotes.
INCREDIBLE WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.
(You should still read it though. You'll want to.)
Yeah, let's just look at the logic here. Assume Ein gets some of these buffs or maybe he doesn't at all. Let's look at his mid kick launchers.
33K - Best mid kick launcher, incredibly fast, gives an extremely high launch on crouched/low holding opponents and the 2nd most optimal launcher in the game behind only WR K.
3KK - Difficult to react to, mash out of on block and his fastest mid kick launcher, assuming it becomes a 2 in 1 it becomes his fastest mid kick launcher at i14. It loses out in damage to 33K but has it's use outside of the stun game as well as a viable option within it.
7K - Prime example of a useless launcher, slow, inferior to the other two and overall lower damage output. It's only use is that it tracks and can beat out low wake up kicks, all in all it's not viable as a launcher.
Now we have those 3, and we have 8K which sits down on NH and ground bounces (technically a "launch") on CH and in stun Now, I'm going to point out 8K's current use in Ein's arsenal below, you ready?
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Hard to miss, right? Well let's just do some comparisons here: It's the slowest launcher of them all at i23, doesn't track like 7K, gains no bonus on low holders, loses out to just about every other launcher in damage and to top it off, it's unsafe. So tell be, where is this move's current use and how is it fine as is? At what point playing as Ein do you find a use for this move? I'm honestly really curious and stumped.
Point being, Ein's got an excess of mid kick launchers and only 2 of them are actively used at any given point. Now, 8K sits down on NH but you're never getting this on NH and in the case that you're using it in the spacing game, there are best options with more damage, range, speed and reliability. Point being, it needs the sit down on CH and in stun as well as 8P. Neither need to guarantee any big launchers and would be fair at +15 on highest SE for a guaranteed 3P or 4K for a reasonable damage juggle.
It's what 8K (and 8P) always should have been and would give them both a real and active use in his arsenal not as something Ein uses to get in, but something to make you scared when he finally does. Now, that being said. Taking into account the SDS properties, it has no business being safe or pressure worthy and can/should stay unsafe if this were to be implemented. 1KK on the other hand would function as it currently does and I'd be fine with it being safe.
If you can provide a case for 8K, why it shouldn't be changed and why it's fine as is, please do so now. I'm more than interested in hearing your answer. But I say, useless move needs a change and a place in Ein's viable arsenal.
I had a few ideas for 7K but I ultimately gave up on it. It could give a higher launch, maybe a bit more damage but ultimately it would needlessly complicate things for Ein's mid kick launcher game. I would love for it to be unholdable but I wouldn't see that flying. It's useless as a mid kick launcher but that's ok, it has it's uses no matter how meager. It crushes low wakeup kicks and tracks steppers. It's not much but it's what it is and that's honestly fine with me. The days of easy-mode NH unholdable mid kick launchers (DOA2) are long behind us.
He said some other things but I'll just quote this, ScattreDreams mentioned it as well. Ein's a character that is meant not to be a pressure monster but to capitalize on his opponent's mistakes. On the other hand he has issues getting in to start his own offense. Well, this was the answer. He started his offense as a reward for punishing an opponent's mistake and it felt good to do so. It was crazy unsafe and guaranteed nothing if it landed as it was a guess like any other. This doesn't break Ein and never did. I don't see any issue with it being re-gained and see it more as a necessity as it was at the very core of his arsenal. I don't need to beat a dead horse though, Scattre, Takeda and Tenryuga already elaborated on why he needs this back, we're good here.
Exactly. Nevermind the fact that Hitomi has tracking off of PP4P and PPK as well as a mid kick option in PP6K. A completely different game from Ein.
I'm fine with this. As long as it keeps the Hitomi speed charge. i35 is nonsense no matter the scenario.
He pretty much explained it more or less how I would have or better, can't really add anything and I agree completely. It may not look like it should be safe but it makes perfect sense and the string enders are otherwise pointless except for their unholdable property which you will seldom see in action unless your opponent blocked the previous hit and foolhardily attempted to hold the next.
It's things like this that baffle and astound me. Maybe I'm spoiled by playing Akira but I don't understand how and why people see to be ok with seemingly useless moves. Akira has a 14 to 17 frame high (can't remember) GB which guarantees stun game or 60 damage clean without a wall. Ein has a 30, 30 frame non tracking high which guarantees nothing but MAYBE a 22 damage high punch IF you were lucky enough to touch them blocking at tip range.
Now, unlike Akira's GBs which leave you at negative on NH, Ein gives you a reward, that being said maybe stun game is a little too much to ask for off the move, he after all, is not Akira and not about getting in. That's why I didn't ask for something like +20 even though I wanted to. I simply want what's ALMOST guaranteed to be guaranteed, which is 46P. I really don't understand the problem there and why people seem to be ok with moves being useless or semi-useless. The time you spend using that i30 high you could use an i7 throw with a better reward. There's something wrong with that. I'm just wondering why I'm the only one who sees it.
Couldn't have said it any better myself. I'd even go as far as +2 on NH. Most would say that's overboard though probably, so I'd settle for the +1 or even neutral. -2 however, is a load of utter bull.
1K2K as you know was my idea. Considering it was taking from Hayate I liked the fact that it would live on through Ein (who imo it makes more sense for) as well as rounding out his 1K mixups with a high, mid p, mid k and tracking low. Considering the disadvantage on NH. The low would be welcome and a nice way to get in and put pressure on the opponent. I also remember that Ein is not a character about pressure however, and giving him tools like that to add pressure would bring him into Hitomi territory which is not something he needs. For that I'm willing to give 1K2K up.
As for 2K6K, I think he should keep that. It's not about giving him a bunch of pressure tools in that regard, but simply making 2K and PP2K viable tools in general. NH 2K gives you disadvantage in any situation. Just because opponents respect it doesn't mean the tool itself is good and a player that catches wind of that will take advantage of any Ein player gutsy enough to put it on the screen. It doesn't track and when you do it out of PP all they really need to do is step or block low. What will they eat for it, PPP? who cares?
The idea of 2K6K and PP2K6K is to have a quick striking linear and unsafe mid kick ender which would stun crouched opponents. This would give Ein 3 options out of 2K and would be fast enough to catch opponents attempting to fuzzy guard 2K2K (Ala 66PP). This not only eliminates fuzzy guarding being the ultimate answer to 2K/PP2K (Blocking the unsafe low and ducking under the high) but at the same time makes 2K2K and 2KK (which gives a +6 GB) viable options as your opponent will be less inclined to fuzzy or even block low as it would no longer be the ultimate answer to the string.
That's why I'm in favor of the string. Now, does Ein need it? In the scheme of things, it's not necessity. It's a welcome change that I think he deserves but it's not one of his more mandatory changes and he would be fine without it with the other changes. But It's something I think helps him more than overpowering him. No 1K2K is fine but I stand by 2K6K. I can live without it but it's a string I think helps in evolving him as a character.
I wanted this to be a bound at one point, SDS (Sit down Stun) at another and even i12 (with neither previously mentioned properties) 2-in-1. Now however I can see it doesn't need all that. Being a semi-safe 2-in-1 knockdown with potential force tech opportunities is more than enough and not too much to ask for either. It's fair and if you think otherwise like I keep saying, elaborate.
I'd even go as far to say as if it didn't get the 2-in-1 or the altered knockdown, shave off a frame and make it i12. I'm not safe if I try to use this to slam my opponent into the wall because the 2nd kick can be held, it gives nothing if it lands but a knockdown with no force tech possibilities, it's unsafe, and it can be slow escaped to death in stun. Outside of a combo ender it's nothing too great. Even with it's +5 on NH. Being i12 would give it a whole new array of possibilities for utility without making it over the top and maybe even give him a few new combo possibilities.
Point being however, it needs something, you don't seem to think that.
This was one buff I actually didn't really agree with tbh. I can understand it but I really just feel like we're turning him into Hitomiyate. I don't really want that but I wouldn't argue with the buff. I could live without it though.
All in all I suppose it's refreshing to see someone with a different take on what he needs and doesn't need. We continue to work out the kinks in how we want our character to play but at the end of the day I don't see many of the tools we have given (and haven't already taken away) him to make him any better than the likes of Christie, Gen, VFs, Lei and the rest of the better half.
This isn't just about taking him out of bottom tier. It's about making him viable at the highest level and making him one of the characters that make you shiver when you see him appear on screen, and doing that without breaking him. But you also have to realize that it's changes like this that set the standard for what characters should already be in DOA. Other characters have their players who analyze them and determine what should be improved and that's their job. This character is ours. Now let's get our bottom tier hero out of bottom tier.
INCREDIBLE WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.
(You should still read it though. You'll want to.)
Yeah, let's just look at the logic here. Assume Ein gets some of these buffs or maybe he doesn't at all. Let's look at his mid kick launchers.
33K - Best mid kick launcher, incredibly fast, gives an extremely high launch on crouched/low holding opponents and the 2nd most optimal launcher in the game behind only WR K.
3KK - Difficult to react to, mash out of on block and his fastest mid kick launcher, assuming it becomes a 2 in 1 it becomes his fastest mid kick launcher at i14. It loses out in damage to 33K but has it's use outside of the stun game as well as a viable option within it.
7K - Prime example of a useless launcher, slow, inferior to the other two and overall lower damage output. It's only use is that it tracks and can beat out low wake up kicks, all in all it's not viable as a launcher.
Now we have those 3, and we have 8K which sits down on NH and ground bounces (technically a "launch") on CH and in stun Now, I'm going to point out 8K's current use in Ein's arsenal below, you ready?
v
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Hard to miss, right? Well let's just do some comparisons here: It's the slowest launcher of them all at i23, doesn't track like 7K, gains no bonus on low holders, loses out to just about every other launcher in damage and to top it off, it's unsafe. So tell be, where is this move's current use and how is it fine as is? At what point playing as Ein do you find a use for this move? I'm honestly really curious and stumped.
Point being, Ein's got an excess of mid kick launchers and only 2 of them are actively used at any given point. Now, 8K sits down on NH but you're never getting this on NH and in the case that you're using it in the spacing game, there are best options with more damage, range, speed and reliability. Point being, it needs the sit down on CH and in stun as well as 8P. Neither need to guarantee any big launchers and would be fair at +15 on highest SE for a guaranteed 3P or 4K for a reasonable damage juggle.
It's what 8K (and 8P) always should have been and would give them both a real and active use in his arsenal not as something Ein uses to get in, but something to make you scared when he finally does. Now, that being said. Taking into account the SDS properties, it has no business being safe or pressure worthy and can/should stay unsafe if this were to be implemented. 1KK on the other hand would function as it currently does and I'd be fine with it being safe.
If you can provide a case for 8K, why it shouldn't be changed and why it's fine as is, please do so now. I'm more than interested in hearing your answer. But I say, useless move needs a change and a place in Ein's viable arsenal.
I had a few ideas for 7K but I ultimately gave up on it. It could give a higher launch, maybe a bit more damage but ultimately it would needlessly complicate things for Ein's mid kick launcher game. I would love for it to be unholdable but I wouldn't see that flying. It's useless as a mid kick launcher but that's ok, it has it's uses no matter how meager. It crushes low wakeup kicks and tracks steppers. It's not much but it's what it is and that's honestly fine with me. The days of easy-mode NH unholdable mid kick launchers (DOA2) are long behind us.
He said some other things but I'll just quote this, ScattreDreams mentioned it as well. Ein's a character that is meant not to be a pressure monster but to capitalize on his opponent's mistakes. On the other hand he has issues getting in to start his own offense. Well, this was the answer. He started his offense as a reward for punishing an opponent's mistake and it felt good to do so. It was crazy unsafe and guaranteed nothing if it landed as it was a guess like any other. This doesn't break Ein and never did. I don't see any issue with it being re-gained and see it more as a necessity as it was at the very core of his arsenal. I don't need to beat a dead horse though, Scattre, Takeda and Tenryuga already elaborated on why he needs this back, we're good here.
Exactly. Nevermind the fact that Hitomi has tracking off of PP4P and PPK as well as a mid kick option in PP6K. A completely different game from Ein.
I'm fine with this. As long as it keeps the Hitomi speed charge. i35 is nonsense no matter the scenario.
He pretty much explained it more or less how I would have or better, can't really add anything and I agree completely. It may not look like it should be safe but it makes perfect sense and the string enders are otherwise pointless except for their unholdable property which you will seldom see in action unless your opponent blocked the previous hit and foolhardily attempted to hold the next.
It's things like this that baffle and astound me. Maybe I'm spoiled by playing Akira but I don't understand how and why people see to be ok with seemingly useless moves. Akira has a 14 to 17 frame high (can't remember) GB which guarantees stun game or 60 damage clean without a wall. Ein has a 30, 30 frame non tracking high which guarantees nothing but MAYBE a 22 damage high punch IF you were lucky enough to touch them blocking at tip range.
Now, unlike Akira's GBs which leave you at negative on NH, Ein gives you a reward, that being said maybe stun game is a little too much to ask for off the move, he after all, is not Akira and not about getting in. That's why I didn't ask for something like +20 even though I wanted to. I simply want what's ALMOST guaranteed to be guaranteed, which is 46P. I really don't understand the problem there and why people seem to be ok with moves being useless or semi-useless. The time you spend using that i30 high you could use an i7 throw with a better reward. There's something wrong with that. I'm just wondering why I'm the only one who sees it.
Couldn't have said it any better myself. I'd even go as far as +2 on NH. Most would say that's overboard though probably, so I'd settle for the +1 or even neutral. -2 however, is a load of utter bull.
1K2K as you know was my idea. Considering it was taking from Hayate I liked the fact that it would live on through Ein (who imo it makes more sense for) as well as rounding out his 1K mixups with a high, mid p, mid k and tracking low. Considering the disadvantage on NH. The low would be welcome and a nice way to get in and put pressure on the opponent. I also remember that Ein is not a character about pressure however, and giving him tools like that to add pressure would bring him into Hitomi territory which is not something he needs. For that I'm willing to give 1K2K up.
As for 2K6K, I think he should keep that. It's not about giving him a bunch of pressure tools in that regard, but simply making 2K and PP2K viable tools in general. NH 2K gives you disadvantage in any situation. Just because opponents respect it doesn't mean the tool itself is good and a player that catches wind of that will take advantage of any Ein player gutsy enough to put it on the screen. It doesn't track and when you do it out of PP all they really need to do is step or block low. What will they eat for it, PPP? who cares?
The idea of 2K6K and PP2K6K is to have a quick striking linear and unsafe mid kick ender which would stun crouched opponents. This would give Ein 3 options out of 2K and would be fast enough to catch opponents attempting to fuzzy guard 2K2K (Ala 66PP). This not only eliminates fuzzy guarding being the ultimate answer to 2K/PP2K (Blocking the unsafe low and ducking under the high) but at the same time makes 2K2K and 2KK (which gives a +6 GB) viable options as your opponent will be less inclined to fuzzy or even block low as it would no longer be the ultimate answer to the string.
That's why I'm in favor of the string. Now, does Ein need it? In the scheme of things, it's not necessity. It's a welcome change that I think he deserves but it's not one of his more mandatory changes and he would be fine without it with the other changes. But It's something I think helps him more than overpowering him. No 1K2K is fine but I stand by 2K6K. I can live without it but it's a string I think helps in evolving him as a character.
I wanted this to be a bound at one point, SDS (Sit down Stun) at another and even i12 (with neither previously mentioned properties) 2-in-1. Now however I can see it doesn't need all that. Being a semi-safe 2-in-1 knockdown with potential force tech opportunities is more than enough and not too much to ask for either. It's fair and if you think otherwise like I keep saying, elaborate.
I'd even go as far to say as if it didn't get the 2-in-1 or the altered knockdown, shave off a frame and make it i12. I'm not safe if I try to use this to slam my opponent into the wall because the 2nd kick can be held, it gives nothing if it lands but a knockdown with no force tech possibilities, it's unsafe, and it can be slow escaped to death in stun. Outside of a combo ender it's nothing too great. Even with it's +5 on NH. Being i12 would give it a whole new array of possibilities for utility without making it over the top and maybe even give him a few new combo possibilities.
Point being however, it needs something, you don't seem to think that.
This was one buff I actually didn't really agree with tbh. I can understand it but I really just feel like we're turning him into Hitomiyate. I don't really want that but I wouldn't argue with the buff. I could live without it though.
All in all I suppose it's refreshing to see someone with a different take on what he needs and doesn't need. We continue to work out the kinks in how we want our character to play but at the end of the day I don't see many of the tools we have given (and haven't already taken away) him to make him any better than the likes of Christie, Gen, VFs, Lei and the rest of the better half.
This isn't just about taking him out of bottom tier. It's about making him viable at the highest level and making him one of the characters that make you shiver when you see him appear on screen, and doing that without breaking him. But you also have to realize that it's changes like this that set the standard for what characters should already be in DOA. Other characters have their players who analyze them and determine what should be improved and that's their job. This character is ours. Now let's get our bottom tier hero out of bottom tier.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
"But you also have to realize that it's changes like this that set the standard for what characters should already be in DOA. Other characters have their players who analyze them and determine what should be improved and that's their job. This character is ours. Now let's get our bottom tier hero out of bottom tier." Quoted by Zeo-Sama.
@Saber I hope this sticks with you.
@Saber I hope this sticks with you.
Zeo
Well-Known Member
When a guy posts essentially saying Ein doesn't need his core tools, Ein loyalists should be expected to rally lol. 4 different people all responded to his one post. It was kinda difficult to say something that you guys hadn't said already, actually. lolLmao damn one post and you guys just bombard him like "wait...HOLD UP!"
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Like I said, I appreciate his input. Even if it sounds like I'm chewing him out I'm just dropping my opinion against his. Ein isn't unplayable but he's definitely not doing great things right now.
As for the rest of you. Lets set it here, one word responses at the top of your post. Explain your reasoning afterward if you see it necessary.
13i 4K NH Property
1. Retain it's current launch. Grants only 6KK. Damage levels out to 45 which matches up to 236P which is also 45 damage (not including close hit). 46P comes in at 42 damage (without close hit as well).
2. Give it a lift stun. Possibly may allow launchers and stun game.
3. DOA4 Knockdown
Personally I don't like 2 or 3 because 2 would just be awkward to deal with and look at in the grand scheme of things. 3 on the other hand feels empty as an option. 4K may be a pretty good amount of damage as a launcher but it still doesn't overshadow any launchers before it. 33K still beats it as well as 8K. This is just my opinion.
What do you guys think in the end? Still the DOA4 knockdown? @Nereus @Saber @ScattereDreams
As for the rest of you. Lets set it here, one word responses at the top of your post. Explain your reasoning afterward if you see it necessary.
13i 4K NH Property
1. Retain it's current launch. Grants only 6KK. Damage levels out to 45 which matches up to 236P which is also 45 damage (not including close hit). 46P comes in at 42 damage (without close hit as well).
2. Give it a lift stun. Possibly may allow launchers and stun game.
3. DOA4 Knockdown
Personally I don't like 2 or 3 because 2 would just be awkward to deal with and look at in the grand scheme of things. 3 on the other hand feels empty as an option. 4K may be a pretty good amount of damage as a launcher but it still doesn't overshadow any launchers before it. 33K still beats it as well as 8K. This is just my opinion.
What do you guys think in the end? Still the DOA4 knockdown? @Nereus @Saber @ScattereDreams
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NinjaSol1988
Member
hmmm i see the frist choice happen only for the fact it seems more useful i dont mind the knockdown from choice three but was it a hard knockdown in DOA4 cause i dont remember for the life of me if it was but we will see ein though could be better the buff he got are good but i still feel he needs more fix his tools give him some better options he wouldnt have a hard time hell ive seen the match up list for him i would be if he was even across the borad agaisnt most of the cast but thats asking to much i just to see him be able to go toe to toe with whom ever he fighting at that time just saying still im await for the day when ein is back to or at least improved from where he is ill still play him but its always a up hill battle for him least we can do is help him make it eaiser for to get to the top of the hill rather than slow him down but all i like what i see i support anything that imrpoves him