The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

[Allan Paris]

The reason I posed the question 5-5 between Zack and Eliot is becuase they both play the same game, stun;launch;stun;throw. That's the basic game play of DOA and they both do not excel at using the new system mechanics (guaranteed launchers from stuns, easily accessed sit-down or faint stuns, quick CB setups, or any other new mechanic I left out). No matter how fancy or top level Zack or Eliot player you are, you will forever be playing the stun;launch;stun;throw game. Again, this is why I put this match up at 5-5.

Eliot and Zack both have solid damage outputs. On CH and HCH Zack does well and Eliot got a damage buff in DOA5 and now his damage is up to par.

Zack's holding game is a little better because he picks up guaranteed damage from all of them. Eliot, has to play a 50/50 game on some of his holds.

Eliot's throw punishment is better than Zack's. Eliot has launching throw for any juggle in his arsenal and his 7i punish throw grants him 58 points of damage (this damage is pretty good the majority of the cast can't produce this from a 7i punish throw) when completed (38pts when it's not completed).

Zack's throws only hurt when he catches you holding. He can't launch you from any of his throws and his punish throw is the weakest in the game. Zack's 7i frame punish throw is only 15 pts of damage but he is guaranteed a jab or his 6p, making the throw 25pts( jab) of damage or 33pts( 6p) of damage. Neither guaranteed hit extends the stun, both hits are on NH.

At long range, it is a stalemate because both of their options are linear. SS at range will get them away from both of their best options. Though, if you take out SS because most players don't, then Eliot wins at range. He has GB options and moves that either give him frame advantage or a neutral situation. Zack has to wait for him to be at least at mid range for some of his range options to connect.

At close range, Zack has the upper hand slightly. Zack is evasive with sway and his duck and Eliot's 7p will be tough to land to consistently interrupt Zack. The speed of Zack will keep Eliot on the defensive end but Eliot's parries will slow up zack's mix up. At close range it can go back and forth with these 2. But with both characters played at their potential, Zack has the upper hand.

At the wall, Eliot is stronger because after a wall splat he can relaunch you back into the wall for more damage. Zack's wall game is not that efficient. However, Zack will be able to land a CB more than Eliot becuse 1 of them is built into Zack's sway stance which is a part of his mix up.

I honestly do not see how anyone is getting a 6-4 in either of their favor. But if your knowledge is there on both characters, please do explain.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Ayane vs Brad Wong

At R1F (Round 1 Fight), Ayane is going to win things out assuming both she and Brad attempt to use there fastest poke. His laydown stance will do nothing to her at R1F because 2P will slap him out of it or counter hit him if he throws or attacks.

Up close, this is the only time Ayane will have issues with Brad (like everything else because this is where things happen in the game anyway). Ayane needs to respect his options unless she see's an opening then act on it (PP, P6P*?* strings, cancels, PP2K *delay*, etc). But Ayane still has better speed than Brad does, so even up close it's not that difficult for her.

Brad is pretty decent at crushing highs with his sway duck into launch( launches on CH or HCH I believe). He has 1P (and followups) for high crushing too, as well as his 2P.

Brad's throw that puts him behind opponents or headbutt them does nothing to Ayane if he chooses not to use the headbutt followup. She can just do BT8P to get out of it. However, Ayane can do P > BT8P to put things back at neutral and make Brad come to her to try it all over again. Or she can do P > BT8P > followup and win it out since he doesn't have anything with sufficient range that will hit her before she can block anything (if she see's him attempting to attack her).

At range, there is nothing Brad has that scares Ayane from doing anything, except for his running headbutt. This is the "only" move he has that can mess her up at range if she isn't being careful.

Ayane has;

- 11/33
- 8P/BT8P
- 11P
- 11K
- BT2P
- BT2K
- BT33KK
- BT6P
- BT 6K
- BT4K
- 3P
- 3H+K

---to keep Brad at bay within mid range.

Old DOA4 match, but the match-up itself is still relevant for an example;

 

[TakedaZX]

The reason I posed the question 5-5 between Zack and Eliot is becuase they both play the same game, stun;launch;stun;throw. That's the basic game play of DOA and they both do not excel at using the new system mechanics (guaranteed launchers from stuns, easily accessed sit-down or faint stuns, quick CB setups, or any other new mechanic I left out). No matter how fancy or top level Zack or Eliot player you are, you will forever be playing the stun;launch;stun;throw game. Again, this is why I put this match up at 5-5.

Eliot and Zack both have solid damage outputs. On CH and HCH Zack does well and Eliot got a damage buff in DOA5 and now his damage is up to par.

Zack's holding game is a little better because he picks up guaranteed damage from all of them. Eliot, has to play a 50/50 game on some of his holds.

Eliot's throw punishment is better than Zack's. Eliot has launching throw for any juggle in his arsenal and his 7i punish throw grants him 58 points of damage (this damage is pretty good the majority of the cast can't produce this from a 7i punish throw) when completed (38pts when it's not completed).

Zack's throws only hurt when he catches you holding. He can't launch you from any of his throws and his punish throw is the weakest in the game. Zack's 7i frame punish throw is only 15 pts of damage but he is guaranteed a jab or his 6p, making the throw 25pts( jab) of damage or 33pts( 6p) of damage. Neither guaranteed hit extends the stun, both hits are on NH.

At long range, it is a stalemate because both of their options are linear. SS at range will get them away from both of their best options. Though, if you take out SS because most players don't, then Eliot wins at range. He has GB options and moves that either give him frame advantage or a neutral situation. Zack has to wait for him to be at least at mid range for some of his range options to connect.

At close range, Zack has the upper hand slightly. Zack is evasive with sway and his duck and Eliot's 7p will be tough to land to consistently interrupt Zack. The speed of Zack will keep Eliot on the defensive end but Eliot's parries will slow up zack's mix up. At close range it can go back and forth with these 2. But with both characters played at their potential, Zack has the upper hand.

At the wall, Eliot is stronger because after a wall splat he can relaunch you back into the wall for more damage. Zack's wall game is not that efficient. However, Zack will be able to land a CB more than Eliot becuse 1 of them is built into Zack's sway stance which is a part of his mix up.

I honestly do not see how anyone is getting a 6-4 in either of their favor. But if your knowledge is there on both characters, please do explain.

Agreed.

What about Pai on Hayate? I have no take on this but I want to know.

 

[Allan Paris]

Pai Vs. Hayate is 6-4 (Pai).

The damage output of both characters are good. In this match up Pai's way to deal her damage is better than Hayate's. With every exchange between them, Pai is shaving off almost quarter of his life bar or more (80-107 pts of dmg; not including walls) guaranteed while Hayate has fight for that same damage without guaranteed setups to do it. So he has to play harder than Pai does to deal damage in this match up.

There are 2 categories Hayate beats Pai in. That's his punish throw being better than hers and his long range game is better than hers.

In a close range fight Pai runs over him, Hayate's options on defense is to try and hold, use his command SS, or try to find an opening for a Jab or 6P to start his offense. His 2P will reset things back to neutral but Pai wins the close range neutral game against Hayate. But interrupting Pai is almost impossible for him because she's fast and her pokes allow her to pick up frame advantage. So Hayate will have to bank on trying to hold her or SS out her offense to try and start his. Hayate could try and crush Pai with 8P or 1K but if his timing is off or he tries it when she is at frame advantage, he will get counter blown.

Hayate's chances of winning against Pai is keeping her off him.

Hayate's holds are better than Pai's because he picks up guaranteed damage from his. His advanced mid-kick gives him max launch height for any juggle of his choice. Only 3 of Pai's holds guarantee a launcher for damage and only the mid-kick will allow her to get significant damage. Her other holds guarantee a hit a in which everything becomes a 50/50 after it.

Although Hayate's punish throw is better than Pai's, Pai's throws overall are better than Hayate's. The majority of Pai's throws guarantee follow ups that lead to juggles because the throws are sit-down stuns. They are more like lay down stuns but whatever about that. Her throw game is better than Hayate's.

Whiff punishment is also in Pai's favor. Her best whiff punisher 66H+K causes an unholdable sit down guaranteeing a launcher every time, it's safe, and hold resistant. Hayate's whiff punishment causes a stun leading into a 50/50 or a knock down.

When it comes to range, this is where Pai lacks in the match up. Hayate excels here with more options than her. 214K, 3H+K, 214P, and wind dash options also help. This allows Hayate to try and control the fight in his favor by keeping a distance from Pai. 2 of his ranged options gives him enough frame advantage (+2) to start an offense on Pai. Outside of Pai's whiff punisher she has 66K and her unblockable dragon kick. 2 of the 3 are mid ranged attacks and do not give her frame advantage but they are not throw punishable. If they are blocked it allows Hayate an opening point to attack. The dragon kick is not really a viable range option. She has it but its not to be relied on.

Once Hayate's offense is done, which would be after he knocks Pai down. He has to make sure he guesses right on holding her wake up kicks or getting his timing down on crushing them. Pai's offense is overwhelming and better than Hayate's. She accesses unholdable sit downs easily and quickly. She also has a solid force tech game (p+k) which eliminates wake up kicks. Hayate does not have a solid force tech. Most importantly Pai can keep up a real offense because she picks up frame advantage from her attacks.

Hayate is forced to play stun;launch;stun;throw the entire time becuse he lacks guaranteed options. Pai on the other hand is all about guaranteed setups and she doesn't have to play in the stun game as much as Hayate. From her sit down stuns, to her throws that give her unholdable stuns and her holds that allow her to keep up her offense, topping it all off with a force tech game. Pai easily beats Hayate 6-4 in this match up.

 

[TakedaZX]

I see, that's what I thought. In theory though, If a Hayate was constantly beating her out by throwing something slightly unsafe to bait her out then using his command sit step to avoid her retaliation with a strike what would be her best bet to stop that?

She does have a lot of linear moves and his command step seems a to some high crush properties as well. I was thinking 66H+K on point because sure it's not the fastest move but it doesn't hit immediately and since everything retracks, I was thinking that since it's a bit slower it might catch him in the sidestep giving her the sitdown stun into the guaranteed launch.

There's also neutral throwing which becomes 50/50... (but in the case of online/late punishment...)

Am I thinking about this wrong?

 

[Allan Paris]

Posts were removed for being off topic. If there are any questions or confusion about a match up, just ask for something be clear. It's an open discussion and anyone can challenge anything if the information is incorrect on a match up.

@Takeda: you are running a scenario between an exchange of Pai and Hayate. When both are played at their potential you will not bait a Pai player to keep beating her. It is a strategy that may get him 1 of his wins but at the end of the day she has an easier time at doing what he is doing, getting to damage with guaranteed setups.

 

[TakedaZX]

Posts were removed for being off topic. If there are any questions or confusion about a match up, just ask for something be clear. It's an open discussion and anyone can challenge anything if the information is incorrect on a match up.

@Takeda: you are running a scenario between an exchange of Pai and Hayate. When both are played at their potential you will not bait a Pai player to keep beating her. It is a strategy that may get him 1 of his wins but at the end of the day she has an easier time at doing what he is doing, getting to damage with guaranteed setups.

I see, alright.

 

[MasterHavik]

The reason I posed the question 5-5 between Zack and Eliot is becuase they both play the same game, stun;launch;stun;throw. That's the basic game play of DOA and they both do not excel at using the new system mechanics (guaranteed launchers from stuns, easily accessed sit-down or faint stuns, quick CB setups, or any other new mechanic I left out). No matter how fancy or top level Zack or Eliot player you are, you will forever be playing the stun;launch;stun;throw game. Again, this is why I put this match up at 5-5.

Eliot and Zack both have solid damage outputs. On CH and HCH Zack does well and Eliot got a damage buff in DOA5 and now his damage is up to par.

Zack's holding game is a little better because he picks up guaranteed damage from all of them. Eliot, has to play a 50/50 game on some of his holds.

Eliot's throw punishment is better than Zack's. Eliot has launching throw for any juggle in his arsenal and his 7i punish throw grants him 58 points of damage (this damage is pretty good the majority of the cast can't produce this from a 7i punish throw) when completed (38pts when it's not completed).

Zack's throws only hurt when he catches you holding. He can't launch you from any of his throws and his punish throw is the weakest in the game. Zack's 7i frame punish throw is only 15 pts of damage but he is guaranteed a jab or his 6p, making the throw 25pts( jab) of damage or 33pts( 6p) of damage. Neither guaranteed hit extends the stun, both hits are on NH.

At long range, it is a stalemate because both of their options are linear. SS at range will get them away from both of their best options. Though, if you take out SS because most players don't, then Eliot wins at range. He has GB options and moves that either give him frame advantage or a neutral situation. Zack has to wait for him to be at least at mid range for some of his range options to connect.

At close range, Zack has the upper hand slightly. Zack is evasive with sway and his duck and Eliot's 7p will be tough to land to consistently interrupt Zack. The speed of Zack will keep Eliot on the defensive end but Eliot's parries will slow up zack's mix up. At close range it can go back and forth with these 2. But with both characters played at their potential, Zack has the upper hand.

At the wall, Eliot is stronger because after a wall splat he can relaunch you back into the wall for more damage. Zack's wall game is not that efficient. However, Zack will be able to land a CB more than Eliot becuse 1 of them is built into Zack's sway stance which is a part of his mix up.

I honestly do not see how anyone is getting a 6-4 in either of their favor. But if your knowledge is there on both characters, please do explain.

This is a good breakdown. You know your Zack. But I feel this leads Zack's way because of his speed 3P+K pretty much crushes most of Eliot's offense. H+K and ball are another moves you need to consider too. H+K is good at mid range, moves Zack forward, and it's +3 on block and even Eliot's mighty 7P can punish. If you block H+K Zack gets a free p, 6p, and 6k. Even though Eliot has parries they not Gen fu or Lei fang level and can easily be baited out. that's why I feel Zack wins. Btw..Zack kind of benefits from the new system...what do I mean? He can get Cb, but his sit down stuns are awful...well gets a free 33kk from 4H+K if you're fast enough.

How does Zack get free damage from his holds?

 

[Jefffcore]

Everyone can get CB.....

A parry is still a parry.

If he's +3 from H+K then he shouldn't get anything for free. H+K is a high, and linear. Not saying it's a bad move, but it's not going to "crush" a whole lot of anything.

Why is his ball good? It doesn't give him anything.

 

[HiguraShiki]

This is a good breakdown. You know your Zack. But I feel this leads Zack's way because of his speed 3P+K pretty much crushes most of Eliot's offense. H+K and ball are another moves you need to consider too. H+K is good at mid range, moves Zack forward, and it's +3 on block and even Eliot's mighty 7P can punish. If you block H+K Zack gets a free p, 6p, and 6k. Even though Eliot has parries they not Gen fu or Lei fang level and can easily be baited out. that's why I feel Zack wins. Btw..Zack kind of benefits from the new system...what do I mean? He can get Cb, but his sit down stuns are awful...well gets a free 33kk from 4H+K if you're fast enough.

How does Zack get free damage from his holds?

They aren't Gen Fu or LeiFang level how? He gets a guaranteed 9K off of a parry. And easy to bait out compared to Lei/Gen how? They have practically the same frames.

Zack kind of benefits from the new system? The new system actually hurts him even more. Every character can get CB's. Also, what do you mean by 3P+K "pretty much" crushes most of Eliot's offense?

 

[Jefffcore]

Gen Fu doesn't get anything more than Eliot does from a parry. He can get a stun with 9p or put himself at negative with something else.

 

[Allan Paris]

But I feel this leads Zack's way because of his speed 3P+K pretty much crushes most of Eliot's offense. H+K and ball are another moves you need to consider too. H+K is good at mid range, moves Zack forward, and it's +3 on block and even Eliot's mighty 7P can punish. If you block H+K Zack gets a free p, 6p, and 6k. Even though Eliot has parries they not Gen fu or Lei fang level and can easily be baited out. that's why I feel Zack wins. Btw..Zack kind of benefits from the new system...what do I mean? He can get Cb, but his sit down stuns are awful...well gets a free 33kk from 4H+K if you're fast enough.

How does Zack get free damage from his holds?

Nothing that you have typed skews the match up between Eliot Vs. Zack from being 5-5. Like I said, facts are key and not what you feel. You feel he leads in this match up because of 3P+K crushing Eliot's offense, but is that not a mid punch that can be held or in this case parried? It is also a part of Zack's close range game which does aid him in the 5-5 match up but does aid him to completely destroy or have .5 or 1 full match over Eliot.

Again, the ranged options you are speaking on H+K and his ball need Eliot to be at least mid ranged. If H+K is giving you a +3 you are not getting any type of guaranteed attack from it. H+K is a GB and to get a guaranteed attack from it you have to add 2 frames to the guaranteed attack you want to use and if it exceeds the frame advantage from the GB then you get nothing guaranteed. I know for a fact that Zack does not have a 0i move outside of a defensive hold.

I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that the same parry Eliot has is not as effective has another parry with the same frames (0i) and advantage to give a guaranteed hit after it.

As you have been told already, everyone can CB, Zack is also plagued by the 4 Hit rule. Meaning that he can't CB in less than 4 hits, giving the opponent 4 times to guess right out of whatever setup you are using. Zack can CB a little more than Eliot because he has 2 of them with one of being in his stance as I have already said. Still, it does not give him any more matches than Eliot in this match up.

Whenever Zack gets a hold, he get his damage and the situation resets after he knock downs his opponent down from the hold animation. That damage is guaranteed every time Zack performs a hold. If Eliot gets a mid punch hold, the damage from it is insignificant and he is forced into a 50/50 situation to try and get more damage from the hold.

 

[MasterHavik]

Nothing that you have typed skews the match up between Eliot Vs. Zack from being 5-5. Like I said, facts are key and not what you feel. You feel he leads in this match up because of 3P+K crushing Eliot's offense, but is that not a mid punch that can be held or in this case parried? It is also a part of Zack's close range game which does aid him in the 5-5 match up but does aid him to completely destroy or have .5 or 1 full match over Eliot.

Again, the ranged options you are speaking on H+K and his ball need Eliot to be at least mid ranged. If H+K is giving you a +3 you are not getting any type of guaranteed attack from it. H+K is a GB and to get a guaranteed attack from it you have to add 2 frames to the guaranteed attack you want to use and if it exceeds the frame advantage from the GB then you get nothing guaranteed. I know for a fact that Zack does not have a 0i move outside of a defensive hold.

I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that the same parry Eliot has is not as effective has another parry with the same frames (0i) and advantage to give a guaranteed hit after it.

As you have been told already, everyone can CB, Zack is also plagued by the 4 Hit rule. Meaning that he can't CB in less than 4 hits, giving the opponent 4 times to guess right out of whatever setup you are using. Zack can CB a little more than Eliot because he has 2 of them with one of being in his stance as I have already said. Still, it does not give him any more matches than Eliot in this match up.

Whenever Zack gets a hold, he get his damage and the situation resets after he knock downs his opponent down from the hold animation. That damage is guaranteed every time Zack performs a hold. If Eliot gets a mid punch hold, the damage from it is insignificant and he is forced into a 50/50 situation to try and get more damage from the hold.

Uh...you can't hold 3p...you automatically sidestep when you mid punch hold it. It's crush a bro you ain't holding it or parrying it. Also I feel it leads Zack way because Eliot can't take advantage of Zack's biggest weakness...he's free to high crushes and Eliot has none. People like Gen fu, Lisa( Well there is a way around hers), Lei fang, and Mila have that. So yeah 3P+K is blowing Eliot up man. It's the dragon punch move if that helps. And he has a string wit ha crush in it to if I recall it's pp4p or pp6p

It's guaranteed if a person tries to punish it. also...let's not add 2...i don't want to get into those waters. But your fact is correct. He doesn't. It would be cool if his ball was.

Really: According to Eliot broads and players. they have said multiple times he gets shit from his parries. I know Gen fu, lei fang, and Pai get a free hit off of theirs.

Actually....you have point no lie...bu he can cb on one instance. He can cb in three with P+K as the starter. The game, like his ball, reads it as two hits while it's obviously one hit. But I agree with everything else.

And oh...that makes sense sorry if that was kind of a noobish question...i never heard a doa player say that about holds. i heard it about parries. But let's compare notes at FF5 man. I'm learning a lot here.

 

[Dr. Teeth]

Uh...you can't hold 3p...you automatically sidestep when you mid punch hold it. It's crush a bro you ain't holding it or parrying it.

That's not what a crush is. A crush move is a move that is designed to beat an opponent's attack at a certain height. For instance, a high crush is a move that, when timed correctly, will beat any high like Bass' 1P and a low crush is a move that will beat any low like Tina's 6H+K. The crush property has nothing to do with a move being holdable or not. They're not mutually exclusive though, so there are probably some unholdable crush moves (I don't know off the top of my head), but they're not one and the same.

 

[MasterHavik]

That's not what a crush is. A crush move is a move that is designed to beat an opponent's attack at a certain height. For instance, a high crush is a move that, when timed correctly, will beat any high like Bass' 1P and a low crush is a move that will beat any low like Tina's 6H+K. The crush property has nothing to do with a move being holdable or not. They're not mutually exclusive though, so there are probably some unholdable crush moves (I don't know off the top of my head), but they're not one and the same.

you can't hold 3P+K* forgot the extra K. But yeah man 3P+K is what you describe it as is. It's a mid crush. It crushes mid.

 

[Jefffcore]

Eliot has great high crushes. Who needs to try and crush it when you can SS it or stuff it because it's slow.

You're left too far away for anything after the ball to matter.

 

[DR2K]

Highs in general are especially worthless in this game, outside of jabs. Almost everything crushes them. Half the stuns in the game, low hold, lows, low mids, crouching, etc. . .

 

[Allan Paris]

Uh...you can't hold 3p...you automatically sidestep when you mid punch hold it. It's crush a bro you ain't holding it or parrying it. Also I feel it leads Zack way because Eliot can't take advantage of Zack's biggest weakness...he's free to high crushes and Eliot has none. People like Gen fu, Lisa( Well there is a way around hers), Lei fang, and Mila have that. So yeah 3P+K is blowing Eliot up man. It's the dragon punch move if that helps. And he has a string wit ha crush in it to if I recall it's pp4p or pp6p

Ok, so 3P+K diverts and no damage can be done to him when its held. When it is blocked, it's unsafe, and it doesn't matter if he transitions into his duck stance or stands straight up after it. Although, the point is, this move aids him in the 5-5 match up but does not aid him to destroy Eliot.

There you go with your feelings again. Facts are key. Eliot has plenty of high crushes: 3P+K, , 2K, 2H+K(along with the punch follow up), and 6K. I may be missing one. So, that weakness you are saying Zack has Eliot has several moves for it. Eliot also has strings with his crush moves in it as well.

It's guaranteed if a person tries to punish it. also...let's not add 2...i don't want to get into those waters. But your fact is correct. He doesn't. It would be cool if his ball was.

Wait..What? ANY CHARACTER will get punished trying to punish you after being guard broken by that. Someone trying to punish that has absolutely NOTHING to do with this match up or any other character match up for that matter.

Really: According to Eliot broads and players. they have said multiple times he gets shit from his parries. I know Gen fu, lei fang, and Pai get a free hit off of theirs

That's Eliot players being pissed that he doesn't free launchers that he was getting before in the pre launch tournaments. He use to be at +20. Eliot does get a free hit (9K) just like Gen Fu gets 8P after a parry. So they are wrong saying he gets nothing, it may not be what they want, but he gets something.

Actually....you have point no lie...bu he can cb on one instance. He can cb in three with P+K as the starter. The game, like his ball, reads it as two hits while it's obviously one hit. But I agree with everything else

If the 4th hit is the CB then it's 4 guesses that can be made to get out of you setup with P+K. Or better yet, post up your 3 hit CB setup that would be really great.

And oh...that makes sense sorry if that was kind of a noobish question...i never heard a doa player say that about holds. i heard it about parries. But let's compare notes at FF5 man. I'm learning a lot here.

You need to learn what the these characters are doing on an in-depth level before you compare anything with anybody. You made another post about this match up and have yet to type anything that puts Zack above Eliot in the match up, but you are great at professing your feelings on the match up. Things do not work like that, sir. As long as you keep doing it I have nothing else to say to you on the 5-5 match up between Eliot Vs. Zack.

If anyone has factual information that makes the Eliot Vs. Zack match up not 5-5 please say something.

 

[HiguraShiki]

If anyone has factual information that makes the Eliot Vs. Zack match up not 5-5 please say something.

Eliot has an age advantage over Zack.

 

[Blacka Blocka Flocka]

Zack... More or less reliant on mids...

Elliot 9f Sabaki + Parries.... matchup is in Elliots favor