DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crext
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UpSideDownGRUNT
Well-Known Member
That's interesting to note, I always thought FSD was just secluded to holding up or down .
You learn something new everyday.
You learn something new everyday.
UncleBiscuits79
Active Member
That does usually work until she starts doing that damn OH that spins you around and then guarantees BT damage. So many mixups . . . .
Hoi, you should probably add Raidou and Honoka at 5-5-5 match-ups against everyone until we're wiser (just color them purple or something to indicate that it is no where near finished/quality controlled).
TN is also hinting at more characters as DLC, so prepare the list for being fluid until DoA6 comes around... xD
Edit: Nvm, too lazy to even read the post before.
TN is also hinting at more characters as DLC, so prepare the list for being fluid until DoA6 comes around... xD
Edit: Nvm, too lazy to even read the post before.
UncleBiscuits79
Active Member
One thing I have noticed about my recent honoka matches though is that she has terrible reach, and it seems hard for her to get in on opponents with those super short arms of hers
. I would think this could pose a problem for her when facing characters that have decent space control (ninja characters, lisa, even hitomi to a lesser extent).thinking that may be a factor, but need more insight, as I haven't played with honoka yet, but I fought against her quite a few times online already. As an hitomi player, I haven't had any trouble keeping her out of close range unless I want to get close to her.
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
You're absolutely right. Honoka's range is very poor. That would make it difficult to play against zoners like Ayane, Ein or Jann Lee.One thing I have noticed about my recent honoka matches though is that she has terrible reach, and it seems hard for her to get in on opponents with those super short arms of hers
thinking that may be a factor, but need more insight, as I haven't played with honoka yet, but I fought against her quite a few times online already. As an hitomi player, I haven't had any trouble keeping her out of close range unless I want to get close to her.
These are some of her other weaknesses I've noticed:
Honoka relies heavily on a stun (preferably a counter hit) to get her mix-ups and pressure going. So my guess is that she's not going to be quite effective against defensive characters like Bayman or Lei Fang. She doesn't have much options to open up people on NH either, aside from 3K or 8P.
Furthermore, if her moves are blocked they generally are semi-safe or unsafe.
synce
Well-Known Member
Actually opening people up with Honoka is pretty simple for me. Just cancel strings and put the squeeze on 'em 8) It is true though if you compare something like her 6p to Kasumi or Christie's death stabs she seems kind of stubby, so spacing is a little more important. She's not braindead but easily top 10 IMO, maybe even top 5. I mean she can get like 100 damage off just KK
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say she's going to be top 10, judging from what I've seen. Somewhere around the range of 12th/15th is my guess (upper-mid tier to mid tier).
Getting a stun on someone with a good defense is gonna be hard. Combine this with throw punishment and you will get wrecked. However, the combo and damage potential is extremely good when she has the stun.
Also, I don't find your KK example a very good example for various reasons:
1) KK is a static string. Meaning if the opponent gets hit by the first high K, the opponent knows a follow-up mid K is coming and can react with a mid kick hold.
2) KK is very unsafe on block and thus should be used sparingly.
Overall, Honoka has too many weaknesses to be high tier.
Revision for Leon vs. Rig
I would put it at 4 - 6 in Rigs favor. Playing @Jaeger at WB last weekend kind of solidified my thoughts on it.
Rig has faster speeds and general kick safety and kick strings that can be freely canceled to be made safe. Rig has an easier time getting an opponent into a corner (where Leon is probably at his weakest) than Leon in most cases and with most of his strings he can freely cancel into his Bending stances (despite the stance transition being i5 throwable) and in general against the super heavies has an easier time out poking them. Rig has better and faster tracking moves at all levels and when played aggressively and in a mixup situation he has difficult to react to tracking kicks (which a smart Rig will throw out almost all the time). This definitely isn't a 3 - 7 (even though in some stages it may feel that way) due to the amount of damage Leon can get with a correct hold, crush, or throw (if you look at my matches on Bifuteki's stream archive at 1:17:05 against Jaegar I was still able to knock a lot his health bar with reads and combos) but this match really isn't in Leon's favor largely due to how much mixup and speed Rig has over Leon.
I would put it at 4 - 6 in Rigs favor. Playing @Jaeger at WB last weekend kind of solidified my thoughts on it.
Rig has faster speeds and general kick safety and kick strings that can be freely canceled to be made safe. Rig has an easier time getting an opponent into a corner (where Leon is probably at his weakest) than Leon in most cases and with most of his strings he can freely cancel into his Bending stances (despite the stance transition being i5 throwable) and in general against the super heavies has an easier time out poking them. Rig has better and faster tracking moves at all levels and when played aggressively and in a mixup situation he has difficult to react to tracking kicks (which a smart Rig will throw out almost all the time). This definitely isn't a 3 - 7 (even though in some stages it may feel that way) due to the amount of damage Leon can get with a correct hold, crush, or throw (if you look at my matches on Bifuteki's stream archive at 1:17:05 against Jaegar I was still able to knock a lot his health bar with reads and combos) but this match really isn't in Leon's favor largely due to how much mixup and speed Rig has over Leon.
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
Yeah Honoka's problem for me seems to be her reach. Which usually doesn't happen with the blonde chicks, Fu, Fang or Busa. She does have long-range moves but they're either too slow (drop kick into Carrera) or just not good at all (Her Dragon Kick).
EDIT: Also, is it me or Honoka's Fujin has shorter reach than Tomi's and Ein's¿
EDIT: Also, is it me or Honoka's Fujin has shorter reach than Tomi's and Ein's¿
Too early to say where she's going to end up or any other character imo. Match ups probably won't change too much though. She has to keep stun to actually hurt you. I can tell you that much. Her true punishment throw gives her +8 & doesn't give you a legit punish. It's a set up. She has frame traps out the ass though.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Honoka Strengths
- Speed
- Frame Traps
- Stun Game
- Wall Game
- Movement
- Versatile toolset
- Juggles and throws play off the environment (Except the ceiling)
- High damage output on anybody that is not a Super heavyweight at all points in stun.
- 92 damage minimum on CH > splat on all weight classes.
- Her size allows her to avoid some setups and moves during spacing situations.
Honoka Weaknesses
- Her size limits her range forcing her to play closer to the opponent to make the most of her range tools.
- Difficult to followup on some frame advantage with ideal counter-poking tools due to limited range.
- Throw punishment is weak. Only 7i throw is a forced mixup at a meager 28 points.
- Retaliation options are limited vs strings with push-back. You have to resort to things other than your fastest poke which means she is not always in a position to deal her best damage.
- Stun > launch damage output suffers greatly and mid threshold damage output reduced from high to moderate by Super heavies.
- Some stance mixups are forced and do not allow you to improvise. This actually gives you less freedom in the stun game than other characters in the cast.
From my experience the way I see it the character is definitely a close range fighter that wants to get you to the wall where you have no escape from anything she has. The knockback from her juggles helps her with this. As for her range it is short but she does have tools that aid her in this department albeit them being slow. Some of these moves gain + frames or become safer the farther away she is from the opponent when they block it such as 46P and 3H+K. 3H+K can become safe enough to allow you to out poke 12i mids with her jab. Her lows are non-existent so she has to use frame traps, her 6T and string delay to open players up.
She has a 60 damage 6T at walls on NH which is 20% or 1/5th of your life bar. This becomes 72 damage NH on a electric wall which is 24%; Almost 1/4th life. These do not allow you to wakeup kick. At walls the minimum she gets is 92 on all weight classes from CH 6P > splat of choice on any hit level. 7P with your back to the wall guarantees her a 6P which is a must hold situation because she has splats within that string and on other hit levels that will hit you into the wall for around 70 points.
Her stun to launch damage on characters up to Gen Fu weight is good from proper starters like her 6P/3P string or 6K/4K. 75 at minimum from high kick, 82 from mid kick. So I disagree with the bolded and underlined statement; Especially when she has stance transitions that play the stun game for the player and lead to setups that deal 90ish damage at worst on heavyweights (105+ on everybody else). All of these numbers do not factor in the additional damage she will get from knocking somebody into a wall or dangerzone.
All things considered this character is not a high tier candidate atm IMO. Too many flaws and lack of reach doesn't help her. She will struggle fighting anybody that is godlike at spacing. I give her high mid tier at best; Mid tier at worst based off my week 1 impression.
It is. She has to stay closer to her opponent to "space" because while she does have range tools she does not have reach on anything but 8P, 46P and 3H+K. Gotta make use of her walkspeed, hitbox and KBD. Her crouch dash is good too.
- Speed
- Frame Traps
- Stun Game
- Wall Game
- Movement
- Versatile toolset
- Juggles and throws play off the environment (Except the ceiling)
- High damage output on anybody that is not a Super heavyweight at all points in stun.
- 92 damage minimum on CH > splat on all weight classes.
- Her size allows her to avoid some setups and moves during spacing situations.
Honoka Weaknesses
- Her size limits her range forcing her to play closer to the opponent to make the most of her range tools.
- Difficult to followup on some frame advantage with ideal counter-poking tools due to limited range.
- Throw punishment is weak. Only 7i throw is a forced mixup at a meager 28 points.
- Retaliation options are limited vs strings with push-back. You have to resort to things other than your fastest poke which means she is not always in a position to deal her best damage.
- Stun > launch damage output suffers greatly and mid threshold damage output reduced from high to moderate by Super heavies.
- Some stance mixups are forced and do not allow you to improvise. This actually gives you less freedom in the stun game than other characters in the cast.
From my experience the way I see it the character is definitely a close range fighter that wants to get you to the wall where you have no escape from anything she has. The knockback from her juggles helps her with this. As for her range it is short but she does have tools that aid her in this department albeit them being slow. Some of these moves gain + frames or become safer the farther away she is from the opponent when they block it such as 46P and 3H+K. 3H+K can become safe enough to allow you to out poke 12i mids with her jab. Her lows are non-existent so she has to use frame traps, her 6T and string delay to open players up.
She has a 60 damage 6T at walls on NH which is 20% or 1/5th of your life bar. This becomes 72 damage NH on a electric wall which is 24%; Almost 1/4th life. These do not allow you to wakeup kick. At walls the minimum she gets is 92 on all weight classes from CH 6P > splat of choice on any hit level. 7P with your back to the wall guarantees her a 6P which is a must hold situation because she has splats within that string and on other hit levels that will hit you into the wall for around 70 points.
Her stun to launch damage on characters up to Gen Fu weight is good from proper starters like her 6P/3P string or 6K/4K. 75 at minimum from high kick, 82 from mid kick. So I disagree with the bolded and underlined statement; Especially when she has stance transitions that play the stun game for the player and lead to setups that deal 90ish damage at worst on heavyweights (105+ on everybody else). All of these numbers do not factor in the additional damage she will get from knocking somebody into a wall or dangerzone.
All things considered this character is not a high tier candidate atm IMO. Too many flaws and lack of reach doesn't help her. She will struggle fighting anybody that is godlike at spacing. I give her high mid tier at best; Mid tier at worst based off my week 1 impression.
It is. She has to stay closer to her opponent to "space" because while she does have range tools she does not have reach on anything but 8P, 46P and 3H+K. Gotta make use of her walkspeed, hitbox and KBD. Her crouch dash is good too.
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@Tenryuga I was going by my experience. I have limited knowledge on the character in terms of how she functions through her stance transitions & her damage numbers across the board, but the Honokas' that I've run into didn't do a lot of the said things that was posted. When I asked them of her damage from the 2 players, they mentioned that it was sub-par & she needed stuns to remotely damage. This was why I asked you, Nanhou Drops, & Hajin about her basic juggles & what all else did you guys find out about her because I figured that you may have known something that they didn't.
The main thing that I did notice when I went to figure out her frames were her frame traps & her safety. The next that I noticed was her lack of range & lack of a "true" throw punish since her 7i throw (6T) gives her +8 with mixup potential. This was the 1st time that I took her into the lab. Haven't went back to look more into her yet because I wanted to keep my focus on Kasumi.
The main thing that I did notice when I went to figure out her frames were her frame traps & her safety. The next that I noticed was her lack of range & lack of a "true" throw punish since her 7i throw (6T) gives her +8 with mixup potential. This was the 1st time that I took her into the lab. Haven't went back to look more into her yet because I wanted to keep my focus on Kasumi.
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