DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[Intelligent Alpha]

I must say, I am a bit puzzled over that Rachel would be so low when so many top tier players use her and continue to use her? I don't play her that much, so I can't really comment in details, but if the western high tier community would be the equality of "close to perfect" play, then Rachel got such high representation for a D tier. Last TFC was even Rachel vs Rachel in the grand final. Of course player > tier list any day, but if it really was about increasing their chances, then swapping secondary characters would apply for so many.

I dunno, maybe she is a pocket ace people use because one ain't familiar with her or something.

Tools! Then again, Brute said (I hope he was joking), it's based on how cheap a character is and how easily said character can win! Yet, based on that, how is Alpha B tier? And I hear far too often about how cheap she is!

 

[Matt Ponton]

TFC 2013 Rachel is not TFC 2014 Rachel. That ground stomp "game" was stupid, and losing it easily made her drop a peg.

As for the tier list, since a year has passed (and that's generally when a first draft of a tier list for a game should happen), I've taken it on myself to reach out to the higher level competitive american players for their take on their characters' match-ups. You can see that in the spreadsheet.

 

[Crext]

As for the tier list, since a year has passed (and that's generally when a first draft of a tier list for a game should happen), I've taken it on myself to reach out to the higher level competitive american players for their take on their characters' match-ups. You can see that in the spreadsheet.

That is awesome. Keep up the good work!

 

[Heikou]

That makes me think, do we actually know why Kokoro is considered a top tier character?

I don't think so. Nobody's ever been able to answer me with anything solid. Mainly I just hear that it's because she does well in tourney and that's what they base tier lists off of, but I'm 99% sure that's bullshit, too.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

TFC 2013 Rachel is not TFC 2014 Rachel. That ground stomp "game" was stupid, and losing it easily made her drop a peg.

As for the tier list, since a year has passed (and that's generally when a first draft of a tier list for a game should happen), I've taken it on myself to reach out to the higher level competitive american players for their take on their characters' match-ups. You can see that in the spreadsheet.

Just let me know when you need the information for the Ayane match ups.

 

[Zero Beat]

Phase-4 is ranked B on that Events Hub list. Are people just not discussing her in-depth?

 

[Tenryuga]

Phase-4 is ranked B on that Events Hub list. Are people just not discussing her in-depth?

Phase 4 is ass.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Phase 4 is ass.

A tier for Ass

 

[Zero Beat]

Phase 4 is ass.

Yeah, I know. She's bottom C tier at best. You can't take away most of what made Kasumi viable and replace it with some extra damage here and there. She needs parries at the least, and I'd be surprised if they aren't added to LR or 6 (assuming she's in 6).

Also, lol @ Mr. Wah.

 

[UncleKitchener]

I think now is a good time to ask people about MUs since after a year, people have pretty much figured out their character's meta game. It's also a good idea to ask other competitive regions and what they think too because America is not the be all end all of the DOA community as a whole.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

Yeah, I know. She's bottom C tier at best. You can't take away most of what made Kasumi viable and replace it with some extra damage here and there. She needs parries at the least, and I'd be surprised if they aren't added to LR or 6 (assuming she's in 6).

Also, lol @ Mr. Wah.

Wait a minute! You didn't just go there! I need some actual holds if Phase 4 needs parries! I have one, but it's not the shit, like people were/are led to believe - it really isn't! I thought there was a reason they split holds and parries between Alpha and Phase 4 - which to me, is fair! It's a give & take thing! If I were to agree with your opinion, all three of them should have holds + parries, but the shitstorm that will arise from that!

 

[crapoZK]

I'mma make a small MU list for Zack, for what I know.

Spoiler

vs. Kokoro: 6-4 Kokoro or 5-5.
vs. Kasumi: 5-5
vs. Brad: 6-4 Zack
vs. Rig: 5-5 or 7-3 Zack. This is because Zack can duck under almost all of his moves.
vs. Phase 4: 6-4 Zack
vs. Hayabusa: 5-5 or 6-4 Hayabusa. Counter mid for DAYS!
vs. Momiji: 6-4 Momiji.
vs. Alpha: 6-4 Alpha. This is because everything he can do, she can do better. In terms of attack speeds, that is.
vs. Leifang: 5-5
vs. Mila: 5-5
vs. Eliot: 7-3 Zack
vs. Pai: 6-4 Pai
vs. Hitomi: 5-5
vs. Ein: 6-4 Zack
vs. Sarah: 5-5
vs. Akira: 7-3 Akira. (Being reconsidered.)
vs. Jacky: 6-4 Jacky.
vs. Jann Lee: 5-5
vs. Gen Fu: 5-5 or 6-4 Gen Fu.
vs. Ayane: 6-4 Ayane.
vs. Hayate: 6-4 Zack.
vs. Nyo-Tengu: 7-3 Nyo.
vs. Marie Rose: 7-3 Zack.
vs. Bayman: 5-5
vs. Leon: 5-5
vs. Tina: 5-5 or 6-4 Tina. Zack really can't do much once he's locked in GBs and fast OHs.
vs. Bass: 5-5 or 6-4 Zack. Bass can't really SS Zack, and barely anything Zack has is easily throw punishable. Zack players don't really finish their strings, or 6KK in front of Bass for him punish you like he does with other characters.
vs. Helena: 6-4 Helena.
vs. Lisa: 6-4 Zack.
vs. Rachel: Either 6-4 Racher or 6-4 Zack. I don't really know, as I've not studied the match up far enough.
vs. Helena: 7-3 Helena. SHE IS HIS BOSS! No, but, she can Bokuho Duck under everything he has apart from , , (Duck) , , , and /

 

[Heikou]

vs. Kokoro: 6-4 Kokoro

Elaborate, please?

vs. Akira: 8-2 Akira. Probably Zack's WORST MU. Like really.

8-2? what

 

[crapoZK]

Elaborate, please?

8-2? what

Kokoro beats Zack in many ways. She can shut down his mix-up rush with 7P, and other sabaki moves, if she SS K's at the right time when SSing his 3KKKK, she goes under the mid kick, getting him on counter hit, and trip stunning him. Her hold game is brilliant against Zack, as she pushes him away, forcing him to either, run back into range, or space, which is isn't Zack's strong point. But he's got 4K. Her PB goes under his K. Doing this at the right time, causes Zack to take SEVERE damage because he might have made a mistake with PP, pressing PK instead.

8-2 is because of his amazing pressure, which easily matches up to Zack's. Akira never really gives Zack any room, and because of this, he cannot do anything. All of Zack's attacks besides P are over 13 frames, and if Zack uses SS, Akira is like, "You sidestepped? Oh that's cute. Let me just 66P you, and put you back in stun."

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Pretty sure Zack's neutral K and 6K are good tools to be using, both are i12. There is no way a match up is as lopsided as an 8-2 in this game.

Also Ayane v Zack is 6-4 Ayane. He does not get anything free on this character.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Kokoro beats Zack in many ways. She can shut down his mix-up rush with 7P, and other sabaki moves, if she SS K's at the right time when SSing his 3KKKK, she goes under the mid kick, getting him on counter hit, and trip stunning him. Her hold game is brilliant against Zack, as she pushes him away, forcing him to either, run back into range, or space, which is isn't Zack's strong point. But he's got 4K. Her PB goes under his K. Doing this at the right time, causes Zack to take SEVERE damage because he might have made a mistake with PP, pressing PK instead.

8-2 is because of his amazing pressure, which easily matches up to Zack's. Akira never really gives Zack any room, and because of this, he cannot do anything. All of Zack's attacks besides P are over 13 frames, and if Zack uses SS, Akira is like, "You sidestepped? Oh that's cute. Let me just 66P you, and put you back in stun."

66P does not track. No offense to you at all, but just by what you wrote and that last particular sentence makes it seem you just made something up out of the blue. I use Akira and I strongly disagree that Zack has a 8-2 match up against Akira or rather any character in the roster.

The only way characters can have such a huge outcome of such numbers is if the characters don't have a kick or throw button.

I tend to watch threads rather than post but that particular one I had to post to avoid confusion.

 

[Heikou]

66P does not track. No offense to you at all, but just by what you wrote and that last particular sentence makes it seem you just made something up out of the blue. I strongly disagree that Zack has a 8-2 match up.

I think he means that Zack's SS attacks don't come out fast enough to sidestep P or 2P and and gain the offensive, which goes for just about every character in the game. He might also just be mistiming his sidesteps.

I'm not extremely familiar with Zack, but from what's been posted in this thread so far, he's said to be decent at mid range, which is where Kokoro excels. I can't say for sure that the matchup isn't in Kokoro's favor, but judging from the other matchups you posted, I'm willing to assume the matchup is 5-5 as I'm fairly sure Bushido posted earlier.

Kokoro's sabakis also seem just as likely to work on most other characters just as well as they would on Zack. Maybe even less since she only has a mid punch and high sabaki, and he uses more mid kicks than other characters. Since her holds pushing you back to mid range was another one of the points you brought up, if Zack really is just about as strong as Kokoro is at mid range, then that's not really an issue.

 

[crapoZK]

66P does not track. No offense to you at all, but just by what you wrote and that last particular sentence makes it seem you just made something up out of the blue. I strongly disagree that Zack has a 8-2 match up.

I know 66P doesn't track. But, like, if I SS, and try to do my SS attack, you can easily counter me by using your 66P. But I do understand, and I don't take any offense to this at all. I'm not too sure about 8-2, actually. It's probably 7-3 or 6-4 Akira. But by a long shot, Akira vs. Zack is his worst match-up.

Pretty sure Zack's neutral K and 6K are good tools to be using, both are i12. There is no way a match up is as lopsided as an 8-2 in this game.

Also Ayane v Zack is 6-4 Ayane. He does not get anything free on this character.

Zack's 6K is great. I like to use his NK a lot. But, I feel like if I try to use it, when being pressured, it really get's stuffed out, and hard.

Ayane is a formidable opponent to Zack, really. I always struggle against Ayane with him.

I always like to take in constructive criticism. So what do guys recommend? I will change my Ayane one, and I need to re-think Akira's, and maybe study him a bit more.

EDIT: Made Zack vs. Akira a 7-3 Akira MU. Also made vs. Ayane a 6-4 Ayane MU.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Ayane basically has a difficult time against Zack is if she cannot figure out his mix up game (which will always vary). Zack is the kind of character whose momentum lies in how well the player potentially set ups his mix up, including his 6T and throws from Duck and Sway, he's not really doing much else without it. He's got plenty of ways to get it started, including his side step P (which I honestly think is one of the best side step strikes in the game).

The problem though is that if he cannot get his mix up game going, he's not exactly going to win, unless the opponent is making lots of mistakes.

A character like Ayane actually has a fine time not allowing other characters get their engine running. Jab stops everything against Zack, except high crushes and his 2P low (which is -1 and actually makes him slower). Jab always puts Ayane in a good position, no matter what match up it is. Putting jab out there often enough forces Zack to commit to everything else that aren't his 6P and 6K strikes, allowing Ayane to use her own. Jab also gives her the option to get away and begin her range game to bait out Zack or just keep him out.

Ayane really just has to ensure he has no flow, and cannot get it started. And that's not exactly difficult to do with this character.

As for things to consider in general, mixing up your neutral poke strike speed is a good start. Zack actually has a good neutral game. Neutral K beats Akira's 66P, 6K ties with it at i12 and 25 damage. Akira has the high/low parry but he cannot exactly spam that because it'll become very predictable (just like any other parry), he has to do use it on read.

Akira is only that much better when he's picking up his +1's from jab or 2P. It helps knowing what this character's strings are and where the advantages actually are because the thing I notice a lot of players have a hard time with when fighting Akira, is that they aren't familiar with him (and Akira mains do thrive off of that lol).

When it comes down to neutral strike speed, Zack has it better. Akira just gets better because he has easy access to +1's and he has an i13 high punch that guard breaks, coupled with an already beefy i12 frame mid punch, and a good low that high crushes and stuns on neutral hit.

One thing I will not advise though is to go mid for mid with Akira if he gets his +1 from 2P, he has WR 46P at i13 frames with like 40 damage. After the +1 it's i12 and Zack has nothing to outdamage that. Zack has an i11 6P but Akira's 66P is i11 after a +1 with more damage, so it is a mix up worth respecting. Of course, it loses to block and the hold.

 

[crapoZK]

Ayane basically has a difficult time against Zack is if she cannot figure out his mix up game (which will always vary). Zack is the kind of character whose momentum lies in how well the player potentially set ups his mix up, including his 6T and throws from Duck and Sway, he's not really doing much else without it. He's got plenty of ways to get it started, including his side step P (which I honestly think is one of the best side step strikes in the game).

The problem though is that if he cannot get his mix up game going, he's not exactly going to win, unless the opponent is making lots of mistakes.

A character like Ayane actually has a fine time not allowing other characters get their engine running. Jab stops everything against Zack, except high crushes and his 2P low (which is -1 and actually makes him slower). Jab always puts Ayane in a good position, no matter what match up it is. Putting jab out there often enough forces Zack to commit to everything else that aren't his 6P and 6K strikes, allowing Ayane to use her own. Jab also gives her the option to get away and begin her range game to bait out Zack or just keep him out.

Ayane really just has to ensure he has no flow, and cannot get it started. And that's not exactly difficult to do with this character.

As for things to consider in general, mixing up your neutral poke strike speed is a good start. Zack actually has a good neutral game. Neutral K beats Akira's 66P, 6K ties with it at i12 and 25 damage. Akira has the high/low parry but he cannot exactly spam that because it'll become very predictable (just like any other parry), he has to do use it on read.

Akira is only that much better when he's picking up his +1's from jab or 2P. It helps knowing what this character's strings are and where the advantages actually are because the thing I notice a lot of players have a hard time with when fighting Akira, is that they aren't familiar with him (and Akira mains do thrive off of that lol).

When it comes down to neutral strike speed, Zack has it better. Akira just gets better because he has easy access to +1's and he has an i13 high punch that guard breaks, coupled with an already beefy i12 frame mid punch, and a good low that high crushes and stuns on neutral hit.

One thing I will not advise though is to go mid for mid with Akira if he gets his +1 from 2P, he has WR 46P at i13 frames with like 40 damage. After the +1 it's i12 and Zack has nothing to outdamage that. Zack has an i11 6P but Akira's 66P is i11 after a +1 with more damage, so it is a mix up worth respecting. Of course, it loses to block and the hold.

So Ayane vs. Zack is a shut down match. And Ayane is trying to shut me down every time I try to gain momentum. I see why Zack loses this MU, as in my eyes, she is the master of poke and disengage. Thank you for making me understand it better.

Also, did you know that his 66K crushes?