Chapstick
Well-Known Member
Alpha does not need damaging holds more than Phase needs parries.
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crext
- Start date
Parries? Like a Sabaki? I would love for P4 to have them. Would make her a much better character.
You don't know your own character very well, do you?
P - i10 high P
6P - i11 mid P
66P - i12 mid P
7P - i13 high P
2P - i13 low P
K - i12 high K
6K - i12 mid K
9K - i12 high K
You can literally poke on every hit level (save low) at 12 frames or less. I'm not trying to be rude, but if you don't even try to learn the frames of your own character, you really have no place to be talking about MUs at this time, let alone debating frame-related issues in them.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
I know this, I'm just saying! I would like to know why they split them up between the two!
@CrimsonWarrior: Just go Leifang! She has holds, parries & sabakis out the ass! XD
Chapstick
Well-Known Member
Nah just Kasumi's normal parry that puts you at the opponent's back.
My mistake. Let me rephrase that sentence. What I was meant to say was "Almost all of Zack's moves besides P are 13 frames and over" (Even this is wrong, but it makes more sense than my other post). The word "almost" clarifies that I'm not certain, and there are moves that are under 13 frames. The first post made me sound like an ignorant idiot. The only thing I didn't know on the slated quote above was the frame data on the 66P and the 2P, and what I said before was an overstatement. Sorry. I do thank you for giving me the frame data on the 66P and 2P though, I'm going to use it a lot like ALOT more.
Ducking P+K is also an i12 high P. 44K is an i13 high K, and BT P is an i11 high P.
I found something new out. Neutral P+K is -1 on block. Even though it is a i20 mid P/K, it is an attack that I like to use to stun opponents, as it's counter hit potential is fairly high. Sway PP is faster than neutral PP also, as the second punch is 8 frames, when neutral PP is 9 frames on second punch.
I'll discard myself from this thread to avoid this happening again.
But even so, Zack has 6 different pokes that are faster than i13, which is way more than almost anyone else. Hayabusa, for reference, has only 1 (which is far less than 6).
And relating specifically to Akira, Zack has an i11 frame mid whereas Akira has an i12 mid, meaning that Zack is just flat-out faster than Akira. All those other i12s I listed tie with Akira's mid in speed. Akira, unlike Zack, does not have i12 high kicks or mid kicks. Just a mid punch. So even in the absence of his i11 mid, Akira has a single mid punch (no string follow-ups) to compete with Zack's mid P, mid K and two high Ks speed-wise.
Now, let's go over damage properties, since if same-frame attacks connect at the same time, the higher damage one wins. Akira's i12 mid P (66P) is 24 damage. Zack's i12 mid P (66P) is less at 20 damage, true, but he has 6P as an i11 mid to compensate. 6K (an i12 mid K) is 25 damage and beats Akira's mid P. Zack's standing K is 28 damage at i12 and thus also beats Akira's 66P. Zack's 9K (high K) is 26 damage, and thus also beats Akira's 66P.
However you look at it, Zack has way more options at way more hit levels that are faster than Akira.
I'd recommend that. Again, not trying to flame you, but maybe go back and study a bit more and get more experience before engaging in these types of discussions.
Thanks for the understanding.
I do need to go back into that Dojo stage. I need to study Zack's poking potential a bit more, because all I know with Zack is how to be completely relentless.
The_King_Edo
Well-Known Member
Whoooooaaaa.... wait i agree with everything on this tier list but 2 things, It's impossible (In my head) for marie rose to be freaking C- O.O and for phase 4 to be B- -.- Plz tell me how that's trueFor those curious, Event Hubs' current list is the following:
S -
A -
B -
C -
D -
Also, the segregation of letter grades has never really been written in stone. As far as I've seen from the Japanese tier lists for games, it's certain amount of match points from the match point neutral total (5 * # of matchups per character). However, I don't know how they determine that range between them, like how many match points before they are deemed "next category".
The way I currently have it is 5 * 31 = 155. So scores between 150-160 = B or 155±5. A & C are 10 points after that, which is ~1/3 of the matchups being advantage/disadvantage. Anything higher/lower than 170 and 140 determine S & D. Eliot is in his category because frankly he's 21 points below the second lowest rated character (Kokoro).
I remember reading on a Japanese fighting game wiki that 8-2 is really where "Character has no chance at winning" starts happening. so 6-4 and 7-3 are still "Has disadvantages but still can win".
Princess Kasumi
Well-Known Member
I remember zack has many guaranteed setups. and his damage is high too. I have no idea why event hubs list him as an B tier. I'd say he is higher
I'm gonna leave some info here despite me not playing Bass anymore. Two years of knowledge should be enough for forming a meta game and I was fortunate to play two very good Christie players in UK and I also spent time in the lab testing buttons against each other.
vs 4-6
Generally, this is what I consider to be the Gief-dictator/Hugo-Chun/Potemkin-Zato1 of this game except the rather one-dimentional approach a Bass player needs to have in regards to this MU.
Most often used Bass tools will be p+k, pk (a whole lot), 6p, 6k (for beating crush attempts and priority mostly) 2p, 1p (mostly for advantage, resets and mixup) and true mids with tracking like 66p and 214p. The decent tool he has for mid range is 66p+k which should be used only sparingly and as a whiff punisher since it can be easily crushed or SSed. Similar case for 33p as a whiff punisher except that it's also used to beat crush attempts as a true mid or situations like 3p+k transitions.
For Christie on the other hand, it's pretty much the case of pretty much having the liberty to use anything from pp string mashing to mid string 2/8p+k transitions until you're punished, to baiting a range of things at mid range with 214p to just crushing pretty much most of his pokes with 3p or 33p. 6pp at midrange is also a given with 9p for tracking and kp to beat slower crush attempts. As a mid weight she also benefits from opportunities to get out of pressure easily from his blender or his 6h+p mixups.
The guessing is mostly in the Bass player's court as even after a throw punish, he's guessing and opting for a different set of tools as the regular pokes like 6p, 3p, 3k, which are pretty much the pokes with good priority can be easily crushed and SSed. At +10, it's still normal to treat the situation as neutral and more often go for a hail Mary than sticking to the normal meta game. This is one of those things that he doesn't have to deal with in MUs like the Sarah MU once he has the ball in his court, since she doesn't have those get out of jail free cards.
For Christie players, having MU knowledge means that even at major frame disadvantage (if it's not throw punishable that is), they have a chance to avoid most mid attempts. Though if they're really looking for high damage, they have to look more for counter hit launchers and building up thresholds. Throw punishing holds, even psychologically may not convince a Bass player to stop attempting to hold you however, as Bass players are aware that Christie has the weakest throws outside of her wall throws and most are willing to take the damage. His holds have good damage and a well timed mid P hold is a good momentum shifter and his mid K holds are also no joke, so it's usually well worth the risk.
An effective tactic which Christie players opt for are long string delays and SS transitions. The first one is pretty effective as it can throw people off often, but the latter can be risky against a player who knows the MU and can react and punish for good damage with 6p.
One other thing that shuts down 2/8 p+k transitions is his PK which kills SSs very well and gives him a free launcher. The string transitions are also decent but very limited, which always leads to Bass players having to improvise with limited tools.
In terms of range game, Christie can stick to close range while Bass has to go back and forth between close and mid range to not get overwhelmed. His game mostly about forcing a mistake from an opponent or picking up on something and punishing that.
Generally, this MU isn't that bad, but at times it becomes tedious with Bass players need a good knowledge of what they're going against beforehand, which turns into an academic study. My advice to any Bass player is to put in lab time if they actually care and ask other Bass players for help, because this one of the more time consuming MUs in this game, an most Bass players play the character differently. Christie players on the other hand don't really need that much to get started as Bass' tools are limited. Be random.
Bass players, be very very patient and develop your reaction times.
vs 4-6Generally, this is what I consider to be the Gief-dictator/Hugo-Chun/Potemkin-Zato1 of this game except the rather one-dimentional approach a Bass player needs to have in regards to this MU.
Most often used Bass tools will be p+k, pk (a whole lot), 6p, 6k (for beating crush attempts and priority mostly) 2p, 1p (mostly for advantage, resets and mixup) and true mids with tracking like 66p and 214p. The decent tool he has for mid range is 66p+k which should be used only sparingly and as a whiff punisher since it can be easily crushed or SSed. Similar case for 33p as a whiff punisher except that it's also used to beat crush attempts as a true mid or situations like 3p+k transitions.
For Christie on the other hand, it's pretty much the case of pretty much having the liberty to use anything from pp string mashing to mid string 2/8p+k transitions until you're punished, to baiting a range of things at mid range with 214p to just crushing pretty much most of his pokes with 3p or 33p. 6pp at midrange is also a given with 9p for tracking and kp to beat slower crush attempts. As a mid weight she also benefits from opportunities to get out of pressure easily from his blender or his 6h+p mixups.
The guessing is mostly in the Bass player's court as even after a throw punish, he's guessing and opting for a different set of tools as the regular pokes like 6p, 3p, 3k, which are pretty much the pokes with good priority can be easily crushed and SSed. At +10, it's still normal to treat the situation as neutral and more often go for a hail Mary than sticking to the normal meta game. This is one of those things that he doesn't have to deal with in MUs like the Sarah MU once he has the ball in his court, since she doesn't have those get out of jail free cards.
For Christie players, having MU knowledge means that even at major frame disadvantage (if it's not throw punishable that is), they have a chance to avoid most mid attempts. Though if they're really looking for high damage, they have to look more for counter hit launchers and building up thresholds. Throw punishing holds, even psychologically may not convince a Bass player to stop attempting to hold you however, as Bass players are aware that Christie has the weakest throws outside of her wall throws and most are willing to take the damage. His holds have good damage and a well timed mid P hold is a good momentum shifter and his mid K holds are also no joke, so it's usually well worth the risk.
An effective tactic which Christie players opt for are long string delays and SS transitions. The first one is pretty effective as it can throw people off often, but the latter can be risky against a player who knows the MU and can react and punish for good damage with 6p.
One other thing that shuts down 2/8 p+k transitions is his PK which kills SSs very well and gives him a free launcher. The string transitions are also decent but very limited, which always leads to Bass players having to improvise with limited tools.
In terms of range game, Christie can stick to close range while Bass has to go back and forth between close and mid range to not get overwhelmed. His game mostly about forcing a mistake from an opponent or picking up on something and punishing that.
Generally, this MU isn't that bad, but at times it becomes tedious with Bass players need a good knowledge of what they're going against beforehand, which turns into an academic study. My advice to any Bass player is to put in lab time if they actually care and ask other Bass players for help, because this one of the more time consuming MUs in this game, an most Bass players play the character differently. Christie players on the other hand don't really need that much to get started as Bass' tools are limited. Be random.
Bass players, be very very patient and develop your reaction times.
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DontForkWitMe
Well-Known Member
How adorable...Leon bottom tier or anywhere near it
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DontForkWitMe
Well-Known Member
Haven't played in a while but from my own personal experience and comparing his tools/advantages/disadvantages with theirs he has an advantage however slight or major over...
Eliot
Ein
Bass
Rachel
Tina
Phase 4
Nyotengu
Kokoro
Brad
the majority of the cast are mostly 5-5 with him while the usual S tier suspects like gen, ayane, christie etc are at advantage over him at 6-4 at the most, his major weakness overall is his range so characters with amazing zoning while also being faster than him give him the most trouble.
His problem along with other super heavies is that people automatically plop them down to low tier simply for being slow grapplers without giving any thought to what else they're capable of. In Leon's case hes the only character on the roster with full 360 degree environmental control after any of his launches which a huge tool in a game like DOA not to mention the only character with a chargeable CB which adds to his mixup/delay pressure and depending on the stun lvl leads to his CB stun or into his hit throw launcher into guaranteed air grab..
this is without even including what hes capable of in certain stages which easily shifts matchups in his favor if they weren't already so overall i feel hes a solid upper mid to mid tier character.
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Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
How adorable...Leon bottom tier or anywhere near it
"No more drinks for that man!" in response to: "I would like to take his face ... OFF!" XD
I play both Bass and Leon and I'd rate Leon higher due to due poke speed, environmental control and just raw damage. His mixups is pretty good too, solid safe low-mid mixups with potential to be intimidating up close. He also has a decent answer to things like special sidesteps (/) and a really good high crush ().
His major weakness is his range, which means that he has to be careful when approaching someone and you have to be a bit more creative in terms of mixups because by now people have seen all/most of his tricks and there are options that people have yet to fully explore or can use, but generally, they can stick to one gameplan and just wreck the shit out of someone with one throw on a table.
I myself can't think of a MU where he is at major disadvantage, because he always has a tool to deal with something within his range.
/) and a really good high crush ().His major weakness is his range, which means that he has to be careful when approaching someone and you have to be a bit more creative in terms of mixups because by now people have seen all/most of his tricks and there are options that people have yet to fully explore or can use, but generally, they can stick to one gameplan and just wreck the shit out of someone with one throw on a table.
I myself can't think of a MU where he is at major disadvantage, because he always has a tool to deal with something within his range.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
^Perhaps that is where he at a disadvantage when he's not in his range. This could be said for all the characters. However, if you know how to deal when out of range, it'll help you when you get in range. And Bass like everyone else: when all else fails: "Run up and Grab." He has many variations of that tool and does Tina!
Seriously, everybody has tools to deal with everything in the game.
Seriously, everybody has tools to deal with everything in the game.
DontForkWitMe
Well-Known Member
from those i'd say Eliot,Kokoro, and Brad are his easiest matchups
Eliots damage output plummets against super heavies where he can't take advantage of his instant 3p refloats on them at all other than from his throw launcher while Leon can destroy him off any of his launches with him being super light weight. Leon also has faster mids and can beat him out up close where only eliots highs outpoke him which are easily crushed by 33p
Kokoro is in a similar position as eliot in the match up but with faster mids, but due to her short strings and lack of tracking Leon can easily step her offense without much trouble and maximize his damage on her due to being light weight where she can't against him.
Brad is one of the few characters who Leon is faster than so offensively he can out pressure him and his lay-down stance shenanigans easily gets stuffed by low OH's
all 3 of the above have average damage output to begin with but when pitted against a super heavy that average damage becomes mediocre damage vs Leon's highest damage output in the game. none of the above 3 have the zoning tools to keep Leon out which as i mention before is his biggest weakness so they pretty much have to come in close where Leon is at his best and can either match or exceed their close range pressure while dishing vastly higher damage to them in the process
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I can attest to the Brad MU being definitely in Leon's favor. Any character with a low OH ends up being a threat to Brad.
He can't punish some of Brad's lows, but his speed makes up for it when trying to interrupt most of his options.
Just put a stamp of 6-4 on it. It's not too bad, because Brad has better range and some things like can't be throw punished if ranged right, but otherwise, it's still unsafe. Best thing about Brad is his maneuverability and crush options. If he has something which crushes a mid, then it probably crushes a lot of em, unless it's a true mid. He has instant crushes for everything and they're all good. Things like Leon's or does tend to stop em if used right though.
He can't punish some of Brad's lows, but his speed makes up for it when trying to interrupt most of his options.
Just put a stamp of 6-4 on it. It's not too bad, because Brad has better range and some things like
can't be throw punished if ranged right, but otherwise, it's still unsafe. Best thing about Brad is his maneuverability and crush options. If he has something which crushes a mid, then it probably crushes a lot of em, unless it's a true mid. He has instant crushes for everything and they're all good. Things like Leon's or does tend to stop em if used right though.