Tiers vs Favorites (Fighting)

[UnD34D]

LOL all you want, but realize that Dom 101 was written by non other than Seth Killian. The stuff written there has been the biggest influence to how fighting games are played at a competitive level.

There's a reason there's so much written about the "scrub mentality." Because being a scrub prevents you from winning. Being a scrub means hiding behind an arbitrary set of rules of "honor" and "fair play." What's fair is what the game's rules, i.e. the code allows you to do. Competitive fighting games are all about pushing what the engine allows It's about creating situations that give you the best chances of winning and, to get back on topic, if that means playing the meta game at the select screen, then so be it.

EDIT:
This mentality of constantly pushing the game and developing tech also means that tier lists can and will keep changing. How a tier list looks during the first month may not be how it looks like years down the line. For example, early MvC2's top tier was Doom, Blackheart, Spiral, Iceman, Cable. People thought the game revolved around zoning and space control. However, that was before people discovered the stuff that Sentinel, Magneto and Storm could do. Same thing with 3rd Strike. The US scene actually rejected the game at first since they thought that it was massively unbalanced. That was before the Japanese opened the game up and discovered stuff like Urien's unblockables and Makotos SA2 on touch kill shenanigans (which actually moved her from low tier, to top 4).

Double postin'. Not givin' a fuck. (Me, not Dev.)

I agree with this post completely. People who say they refuse to pick top tier because it's cheap or because there is less honor in it, well that is just fucking stupid to me. Sure, pick who you like if you want, but as I said before, I like the fucking character that gets me money. I like the character that beats you. I like the character who makes you cry, scream, and call me cheap. You think Jann Lee is cheap and I know you have a hard time fighting him? You damn well better realize I'm going to pick him against you.

Also, to be fair d3v, Spiral and Cable stayed high tier, even after figuring out what the top three could do, thanks to Spiral's stupid meter gain and Cable's AHVB, and only some tier lists considered Makoto top 4, and even then it was really only in the hands of some players...

 

[d3v]

I agree with this post completely. People who say they refuse to pick top tier because it's cheap or because there is less honor in it, well that is just fucking stupid to me. Sure, pick who you like if you want, but as I said before, I like the fucking character that gets me money. I like the character that beats you. I like the character who makes you cry, scream, and call me cheap. You think Jann Lee is cheap and I know you have a hard time fighting him? You damn well better realize I'm going to pick him against you.

We've observed that there are two kinds of low tier players. The ones that simply like the character who they use and think they can do well with them, and the so called "low tier heroes" who do so because they think that they're "sticking it up to the man." The former is fine, as Seth has stated, play who you want, but play to win. The latter however tend to be the worst, most annoying scrubs since they tend to spam the forums with posts about how they're "so much better" and similar shit.

Also, to be fair d3v, Spiral and Cable stayed high tier, even after figuring out what the top three could do, thanks to Spiral's stupid meter gain and Cable's AHVB, and only some tier lists considered Makoto top 4, and even then it was really only in the hands of some players...

Cable yes, Spiral isn't as good as she used to be anymore. Partly because Duc stopped playing as much, mostly because everyone found better teams.

As for Makoto, she still moved up after her SA2 shenanigans were discovered. She's still among the top tier in 3S.

 

[shunwong]

The thing about the debate about scrubs is...I don't think Usain Bolt gives much thought to people who can't run 100 mts in less than 10 seconds, much less writes articles about it.

 

[TRI Mike]

Those three articles were really beautiful things to read. I used to be one of these players with a "scrub mentality". I used to complain about people being good with top tier characters in fighting games. I made A LOT of noise against the MLG modes in Halo 2, 3 and Reach because I used to find them "boring" and taking so much content out of the game. But since I started posting here and reading so many things online I've changed the way I think drastically.

If DOA5 would have come out back in the 2008-2010 years, I'd have probably ended up being a stupid scrub maining Helena simply because she was my main in DOA4. I'd have ended up not traveling at all and focused on playing online but running away from high-ranks and gamertags of people I recognized from here because I'd know I'd get my ass handed down to me before I got the invite in the first place. That's why with all the pain in my heart I'm simply saying good-bye to Helena and waiting to try out the game and general consensus on who the most viable characters are. Because, as those articles say, I want to play to win.

I'm not really familiar with any other game's communities but I'm sure it's like this as well. I now get pissed off a lot when I see so many people talking about bikinis, breast sizes, background music and shit like that in DOA5. I have a friend who's older than me who text messaged me today all excited about Mila's costumes and personality. I though "Is that going to win any matches for you¿" No, of course not. But this is something that I see as a double-edged sword for DOA. It has these beautiful ladies we all like and those bad-ass boys but at the same time, the character design attracts a HUGE pool of casuals and scrubs who simply press buttons without knowing or caring to know what the hell they're doing because they're paying all their attention to secondary things like the soundtrack, what the characters are wearing or what they say when they win. I know there are very few exceptions of people who like to masturbate to a DOA lady but are very good players at the same time, like our Awesmic. But they're the extreme minority.

I am completely in favor of trying to stay as far away as we can from the scrub mentality because not only will it affect our performance in DOA5, it will affect the game itself. We need actually-competitive players to show up at offline events and keep a good tournament scene without mentioning boobs and titties at all. And I just hope I'll be able to live it.

 

[d3v]

Breaking free of your own mental barriers is an important step in you development as a competitive fighting game player.

 

[J.D.E.]

LOL all you want, but realize that Dom 101 was written by non other than Seth Killian. The stuff written there has been the biggest influence to how fighting games are played at a competitive level.

There's a reason there's so much written about the "scrub mentality." Because being a scrub prevents you from winning. Being a scrub means hiding behind an arbitrary set of rules of "honor" and "fair play." What's fair is what the game's rules, i.e. the code allows you to do. Competitive fighting games are all about pushing what the engine allows It's about creating situations that give you the best chances of winning and, to get back on topic, if that means playing the meta game at the select screen, then so be it.

EDIT:
This mentality of constantly pushing the game and developing tech also means that tier lists can and will keep changing. How a tier list looks during the first month may not be how it looks like years down the line. For example, early MvC2's top tier was Doom, Blackheart, Spiral, Iceman, Cable. People thought the game revolved around zoning and space control. However, that was before people discovered the stuff that Sentinel, Magneto and Storm could do. Same thing with 3rd Strike. The US scene actually rejected the game at first since they thought that it was massively unbalanced. That was before the Japanese opened the game up and discovered stuff like Urien's unblockables and Makotos SA2 on touch kill shenanigans (which actually moved her from low tier, to top 4).

I just hope that I don't have to switch mains due to how big the gap is. Because I'm satisfied with the one that I have been maining throughout the entire series. Even when she's outmatched, I used her to overcome the odds. However, I have a ton of other options that I can go with. Does that mean that I'm going to completely abandon the character, no.

I just thought I'd share it because of the fact some people don't go by tiers & use favs. Also, I felt like it was wrong to label people "scrubs" when they're just going by what they know.

 

[xOmniCloudx]

I usually play a variety of characters and often times I have the highest assort of mids with few to no high/top tiers and 1 to no low tiers. I believe in playing a character for fun though I do believe a character that you enjoy playing can have the fun stripped away if they're so bad that you have to work too much for them for it to be an enjoyful experience. It always angers me when I saw a lower tier character have to work their ass off for something and take all these risks and then see higher tier character get anywhere from an equal to better result with little to no risk involved.

 

[Awesmic]

Actually, you're all wrong. A Scrub is a guy that think he's fine and is also known as a Buster. Always talkin' about what he wants and just sits on his broke ass.

/thread

 

[R4712-VR88]

Can't believe it's taken people this like to like or quote me. lol

 

[Zeo]

I used to have somewhat of a tier mentality and the desire to use low tier characters simply because of the annoyance of the frequency of high/top tier character usage and what some (scrubs would) call "cheap" tactics. But eventually I grew out of that and simply became a player that did my best to win.

I was never one to flock to tiers at any point though, I play who I like and if who I like is top tier then It is what it is. I've been pretty fortunate with my preferences in most fighters I've played though (Zero/Vergil/Dante in UMVC3, Jin in TTT1, Akira in DOA5, Ein in DOA2, etc.)

 

[loralei]

This will sound weird, but being a girl, I've always chosen my characters in any video games based on how they appeal to me. Finding out about where they place on tier lists comes as an after thought to me, and after that I will continue doing my best with the character that has earned a place in my heart. Don't get me wrong; I want to be a strong, solid player. I HAVE thought about switching over to "stronger" characters many times. I go to training mode, stick with it for about 5 minutes, and then go crawling back to the character that I'm comfortable with.

 

[J.D.E.]

The

We've observed that there are two kinds of low tier players. The ones that simply like the character who they use and think they can do well with them, and the so called "low tier heroes" who do so because they think that they're "sticking it up to the man." The former is fine, as Seth has stated, play who you want, but play to win. The latter however tend to be the worst, most annoying scrubs since they tend to spam the forums with posts about how they're "so much better" and similar shit.

Cable yes, Spiral isn't as good as she used to be anymore. Partly because Duc stopped playing as much, mostly because everyone found better teams.

As for Makoto, she still moved up after her SA2 shenanigans were discovered. She's still among the top tier in 3S.

reason for this post is because I've seen all kinds of dudes who's been in tournaments & then a newcomer comes in and say "I use my favorite character" & then that ones that's experienced talks down towards the ones who do believe or support tiers. I support tiers. Always have. People get the wrong concept of tiers. They say that "tiers don't matter" Tiers are always in a fighting game. Does it promise you a win if you pick a high/top tier? No. It just means if you choose a character with less tools, you could be fighting an uphill battle against a good player with a high tier. It's really ignorant to say that they don't but at the same time, I don't like how some people insult others who don't. I say let them learn the hard way. Hell, we had to learn, right?

 

[tnzk]

Just reading an old thread...

I think an important thing to remember is that tiers aren't set in stone. They don't come on a fact sheet inside a game cover and explain to you which character is the best. It's the community that figures them out over time, and it's always subject to change.

In saying that, I reckon you're on the good foot if you're part of the avant-garde that actively tries to figure out which characters have the best options. The guy that searches tier lists every six months to switch to the alleged best characters only has half the mentality that the top players have. The top players are actively stressing the mechanics, and are thus able to influence the tier lists themselves. Perhaps the game which most illustrated that was Street Fighter III: Third Strike, when the Japanese fighters opened up the game like no tomorrow.

Perhaps don't stress too much if your favourite character in DOA5 is low tier this early on? See how far you can push your character, and if you can find some good tools, great. If you can't, accept and adapt.

 

[vINv]

I dont belive in tier competive or casual if u want to use a char based on tier makes u a scrub coming from tekken thats not how we pick our chars pick them on if the char feels natural to u the fighting style and the chars personality etc then u study their frames option selection their tools match ups and u use the frames and experince to overcome tier this isnt street fighter where tier owns the game every char has a fighting chance if u do ur home work

 

[d3v]

I dont belive in tier competive or casual if u want to use a char based on tier makes u a scrub...

Uhh... the very definition of scrub is someone who refuses to acknowledge these things and refuses to play to win.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

Perhaps the game which most illustrated that was Street Fighter III: Third Strike, when the Japanese fighters opened up the game like no tomorrow.

And yet the game is still dominated by Yun and Chun at Japanese tournaments (including SBO). Even when Kuroda brough Oro all the way to the finals at SBO, it was still his teammates who were using Chun (MOV) and Yun (Boss) who were doing all the work.

 

[vINv]

Thats why the game has frames tiers only define how safe a char is their frame advantages their mix up options dmg etc u might have to work harder with low tier then a high tier example janlee has lots of options with dmging combos and throw punishes etc zack low tier highly unsafe etc yes u can play to win but if u play by the tier list nothing changes and the tournement becomes dry and stagnent this is from experience u should challnge urself quote on qoute pro players should b able to combat the tier disadvantage with home work and studying......

 

[d3v]

Why would you want to have to work harder when there's an easier, more efficient way to get that win (which in the end is all that matters).

 

[Zeo]

Why would you want to have to work harder when there's an easier, more efficient way to get that win (which in the end is all that matters).

I remember watching that the day it was uploaded. I feel picking a top tier to win... it's smart in a way but a player that dislikes the top tier or even dislikes the characters that are top tier simply won't put in the same amount of effort as the character they like or have a feel for.

Some players are just more comfortable with certain characters, be it their liking of the character, the character suiting their playstyle or a variety of other factors. I'm sure there are people who just pick weaker characters for the "low tier hero" status but there are also players who just can't put in 100% effort to play a character they simply don't like or enjoy playing. I honestly believe players perform better and put more effort into characters they actually enjoy playing. Only in the case of the character simply being too un-viable (SCV Z.W.E.I, anyone?) and forcing to play a higher tier character. Chances are you like more than one character though and if you don't then you're simply out of luck.

Point is, picking top tiers is a legit strategy, but not one that works for everyone. I'm not that current with AE, but I hate Yun, and if I was forced to use him in a tourney I wouldn't see myself putting in all that much effort. If I was playing as Yang or Ken however, I'd be playing my heart out and enjoying every second of it.

 

[vINv]

To me tiers own 2d games but doa is not a 2d game which means can b worked around just takes effort and as zeo said ur not going to give it ur all using a char u dont like just using them for their tier. The point of a tournament is to see who can win by doing their home work frames punishing set ups y b just another high tier player why not b defined by winning with the char u like and over coming the tier disadvantage thats being a pro gammer takeing the easy way out is just not for me im to much of a hardworker

 

[d3v]

I prefer Viscant's take on things. If he (or I) love a game enough that winning in it matters, then he'll sure as heck pick top tier.