How could you lie to someone like that though? Don't you have any morals?
Nope, just the entire fighting game community...
Using Online Tournaments to push Offline Events?
- Thread starter Game Over
- Start date
Relius Starkiller
Active Member
Erm, ok. Do me a favor - name me three great online players who came offline and didn't turn out to be just as good?
Take as long as you wish my man.
Oh and I must have missed the memo that Ransuu, Dr Dogg, yourself and a few of the other top tier DOA players are the entire fighting game community.
You're making this easy guys.
I am the Stalin of the fighting game community. Master is Hitler.
Wah is Trotsky.
Wah is Trotsky.
Relius Starkiller
Active Member
So then the guy from DOAWorld would be Hirohito?
Hmm, well if Master is Hitler then I'd be Josef Mengele.
Hmm, well if Master is Hitler then I'd be Josef Mengele.
You first: name these people who take online tournaments seriously and do well in "secondary" offline ones.
I noticed you're not promoting this on SRK. Care to explain why? Is it because you'd get laughed at out of existence? For the record, you don't know what the term "top tier" means.
Relius Starkiller
Active Member
Ok, those who started in online tournaments.
Perfect Legend, Black Mamba, Master, Hatrify, Dave Cheppelle, Offbeat Ninja. . .need I keep going, because I can.
Even if they don't take it seriously now, they once did and thats why they are where they are now.
And I'm not over at SRK because I don't feel like posting SRK. I'm too busy going to koeiwarriors.co.uk, tecmo forums, neoseeker, DOAworld, DOAwiki, Xbox.com, Gamespot.com, IGN.com, ect promoting TKP/DOAT3 tournaments and trying to win people over.
Now, you can stay trying to convince capcom and namco fans that DOA is worth their time but go look at BlazBlue, Virtua Fighter and Super Smash Brothers communities and you'll realize that its a waste of time.
If the game is solid they might flirt with it for a while and thats good but the people you need to focus on are the ones who you know enjoy the series.
MK has a fan base and it doesn't have much overlap with the rest of the hardcore community; same with Smash, KOF, BB, VF and Melty.
You need to face facts that the games that are super popular over there were in every arcade in the country, DOA wasn't so you don't get that nostalgia factor drawing people in or those who were beasts at their local arcade trying to showcase their skill against the world - however the DOA series has sold in the millions across 5 platforms so there are people out there who enjoy the game enough to keep buying the new iterations.
And as far as what I'm doing to push the community forward, read this.
http://tkplayers.com/forum/index.php?/topic/11246-we-are-tkplayers/
You do the SRK thing, I'll do everything else.
Relius Starkiller
Active Member
Hell, Smash Bros is only as popular as it is because other than Mario64, Ocarina of Time, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark and Diddy Kong Racing it was the only other major killer app on the system and it went on to sell 4.9 million copies in north america (The N64 only sold 32.92 units whole sale in the US. . .so thats an attachment rate of about 16%?)
And heres some more fun facts.
Melee sold 4.50 million. (as of 2008) and the gamecube SHIPPED 12.94 million unit in north america. So, what. . .40% give or take?
DOA4 sold around 1 million (as of 2007) and the xbox 360 has sold 57.6 million units worldwide . .so less than 3 % of xbox owners have the game.
Maybe you guys can convince the people over at SRK to buy the game but, knowing their history, it'll be on the used game shelf just as soon as MK9 was.
Lucky for us DOA5 is being released on Multiple platforms, so the community is going to expand on that alone. Now the projects I'm working on with TKP, if they are executed and advertised correctly that might bring in some new faces but I have no illusions about how unlikely that is and I'm really doing it because I want people who play the game casually now to become part of the competitive community later on.
So lets try not to scare off the people who like online, em kay?
And heres some more fun facts.
Melee sold 4.50 million. (as of 2008) and the gamecube SHIPPED 12.94 million unit in north america. So, what. . .40% give or take?
DOA4 sold around 1 million (as of 2007) and the xbox 360 has sold 57.6 million units worldwide . .so less than 3 % of xbox owners have the game.
Maybe you guys can convince the people over at SRK to buy the game but, knowing their history, it'll be on the used game shelf just as soon as MK9 was.
Lucky for us DOA5 is being released on Multiple platforms, so the community is going to expand on that alone. Now the projects I'm working on with TKP, if they are executed and advertised correctly that might bring in some new faces but I have no illusions about how unlikely that is and I'm really doing it because I want people who play the game casually now to become part of the competitive community later on.
So lets try not to scare off the people who like online, em kay?
These people did not at any point play in online tournaments exclusively and then moved on to offline. I'm fairly certain they, like any serious fighting game player, took online play with a grain of salt and that's why they do go to offline competitions. Master might be the exception but I can't say for certain but he does regularly hold DiD, so take that with what you will.
Yeah, if we would try to convert people to DOA, it won't be with the worst game in the series. I'm fairly MK9 is still also very much liked and respected at SRK, despite the constant "re-balancing" of the game.
I'm not trying to scare anyone from playing online; go ahead and play. I'm just saying that you shouldn't lie to people and tell them online tournaments are comparable to offline ones. When you do that, you tell people that there's no reason to go offline since online is "just as good" and you therefore do the community more harm than good. At it's height, DOA4 couldn't even fill the 64 minimum bracket at Evo because of this attitude. How many did MK9 get last year? Just over 500. Enough to warrant it being held again this year. What's the biggest number of players we've ever had at a DOA tournament, off or online? No where near that. We're trying to build an offline scene, stop sticking tree branches in our wheels.
Relius Starkiller
Active Member
And what if DOA5 isn't something they like?
These are the same people that bash DOA2U and, I'm reasonably certain, we all really liked that game.
Everyone got their start online - Every single one of us and the only reason a competitive DOA player would fly 2000 miles to an offline event
is because they got it in their minds that he or she could win based off of the way they progressed online. Now, maybe a few of you were lucky enough to live near people who you could practice against but the majority of players didn't so the only indication that you had that you could contend was online play.
See X Dest and Offbeat Ninja. . .who the hell did they live near to test themselves against and how did they know they were good enough to go offline in the first place?
What about Punishere?
Calijared lived near who?
Dave Chappelle?
Vanessa?
Swoozie?
Should we go through the list of every solid game that hasn't done well at EVO? Its a long list buddy.
I personally think you're throwing branches into the wheels every time you disparage online players.
And I really hate to pull this card, but how would you know how different online and offline really are?
When did you compete and what did you win?
Fact is that even if I can't 100% of the time counter on reaction online, I'm still trying. No one that I know gets online and adjusts their play style. The people that win online generally win offline.
Matter of fact, ask some of your friends here about the old ranking tournaments they used to have in 2U. That was the barometer before offline events.
I've told you many a times grape, don't try to pour Kool Aid into my beer hat.
These are the same people that bash DOA2U and, I'm reasonably certain, we all really liked that game.
Everyone got their start online - Every single one of us and the only reason a competitive DOA player would fly 2000 miles to an offline event
is because they got it in their minds that he or she could win based off of the way they progressed online. Now, maybe a few of you were lucky enough to live near people who you could practice against but the majority of players didn't so the only indication that you had that you could contend was online play.
See X Dest and Offbeat Ninja. . .who the hell did they live near to test themselves against and how did they know they were good enough to go offline in the first place?
What about Punishere?
Calijared lived near who?
Dave Chappelle?
Vanessa?
Swoozie?
Should we go through the list of every solid game that hasn't done well at EVO? Its a long list buddy.
I personally think you're throwing branches into the wheels every time you disparage online players.
And I really hate to pull this card, but how would you know how different online and offline really are?
When did you compete and what did you win?
Fact is that even if I can't 100% of the time counter on reaction online, I'm still trying. No one that I know gets online and adjusts their play style. The people that win online generally win offline.
Matter of fact, ask some of your friends here about the old ranking tournaments they used to have in 2U. That was the barometer before offline events.
I've told you many a times grape, don't try to pour Kool Aid into my beer hat.
Yeah, DOA2U was a great game but it wasn't flawless either. The FGC's main complaint about DOA is being able to hold during stun, which is present in 2U and was made exponentially worse in 4. It's also hard to respect a game, regardless of one's own personal preference, if the game's supporters aren't showing up and playing it.
Which posts are you responding to? We were arguing online and offline tournaments. Where did I say online play wasn't considered practice? That's all it should be considered.
Saying "go ahead and play online" is "disparaging" online players? Again, go ahead and play online just don't try and put it up there with actual offline competition. They're entirely two different things and you're doing nothing but misinforming people.
Where am I supposed to go to compete? Disregard the fact that DOA4 is trash and I hate playing it. Are you holding any offline events for it? My offline play is limited to a single Dead of Winter and some casuals with Just Ownin a few years back and with Kobayashi a few months ago. I sure would like a good game and a healthy offline scene so I could play some more games offline. You're not really helping that.
Really good players win regardless of where they play, news at 11! No shit? Really?! It doesn't change the fact that online play is very casual and shouldn't be considered anything other than practice and every other FGC agrees.
And they've hindered the offline scene as a result, good job. I didn't know any better back then and took those way too seriously as well.
I'm pretty sure your beer hat's full of bleach. It's the only possible way to explain your idiocy.
Why am I arguing with a retard? I'm pretty sure I can't win since your entire view of the world is skewed.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Xdest lives near me, actually. We've had a couple small tournaments before up in toronto. He can take my money embarrassingly well.
Offbeat lives in deepest darkest canada so he was isolated, but he doesnt take online play seriously either. He apparently destroys Xdest, yet I can beat him. Wierd shit, eh?
That did not correctly answer the question though. Save master, none of those players take online seriously. You can try to use their names as examples, yet every one of them will likely refuse to endorse your theory. It's also worth pointing out that when online players first came offline most of them get their asses pounded by the ones who had always been offline.
Many of us still tried abusing lag tactics like slow sweeps and whatnot as part of main strategy for getting stuns. We didn't yet realize what could and couldn't be reacted to. It didn't work, and we all had to take a few tournaments to really figure out worked and what didn't. Look at a player like Subway for example. His entire game relies on using Tengu's slow ass moves that can all be reacted to offline. He literally doesn't play anything else at tournament level, online or off. If he was to suddenly travel offline, just how well do you think he would fair?
Anyway, Julius, I invite you to post your thoughts on SRK and see how it is handled. I expect it to be quite negative, and rightly so. The majority of currently existing DOA players are newbloods to the FGC and don't understand the standards we value, so you're going to get a much different outlook from them than veterans who have been in the community for years.
You should try not to exploit their naive nature while burning your bridges to other much larger communities.. That is not the proper way to grow.
Offbeat lives in deepest darkest canada so he was isolated, but he doesnt take online play seriously either. He apparently destroys Xdest, yet I can beat him. Wierd shit, eh?
That did not correctly answer the question though. Save master, none of those players take online seriously. You can try to use their names as examples, yet every one of them will likely refuse to endorse your theory. It's also worth pointing out that when online players first came offline most of them get their asses pounded by the ones who had always been offline.
Many of us still tried abusing lag tactics like slow sweeps and whatnot as part of main strategy for getting stuns. We didn't yet realize what could and couldn't be reacted to. It didn't work, and we all had to take a few tournaments to really figure out worked and what didn't. Look at a player like Subway for example. His entire game relies on using Tengu's slow ass moves that can all be reacted to offline. He literally doesn't play anything else at tournament level, online or off. If he was to suddenly travel offline, just how well do you think he would fair?
Anyway, Julius, I invite you to post your thoughts on SRK and see how it is handled. I expect it to be quite negative, and rightly so. The majority of currently existing DOA players are newbloods to the FGC and don't understand the standards we value, so you're going to get a much different outlook from them than veterans who have been in the community for years.
You should try not to exploit their naive nature while burning your bridges to other much larger communities.. That is not the proper way to grow.
Relius Starkiller
Active Member
No fighting game is flawless.
I'm referring to the online experience as a whole - endurance matches, tournaments, just playing seriously.
Heres a question; how did your offline play differ from your online play? Matter of fact, you can't even comment on that because you didn't take the game seriously.
The FGC didn't take it seriously because of the heavy damage inflicted and, yet, to drive a further nail into that people from this site (orginally DOAC) insisted that the game be played on NORMAL life AT EVO. So, all of the stereotypes about how easy it is to win in DOA and how the counter button ends more matches than specific strategy got reinforced - Thats shooting yourself in the foot.
Thats why the offline scene is dead, because instead of taking the FGC's crituqes and using them to encourage cross over, everyone said "Blow us, we know DOA, this is how it should be played." Maybe you guys are doing the right thing now but if you had just played the game on largest life back then I bet you wouldn't have so many people with bad tastes in their mouths.
I need you to stop trying to argue with me Grap3. I know your mother told you that you're special but I think you misunderstood
what she was impling on the count of you being an inbred piece of monkey shit - you've been knocking on a door with those comments
for a while dude, now its open and standing on the other side is Julius Rage.
P.S I remember you being so P.O'd back in the day because "People on DOAC were A-holes' and yet you're now neck and neck with Ransuu as the biggest jerkass of them all.
Lastly, I'm not done: Instead of assuming things go to google, find the old DOA threads (Because they still exist) and read what people were saying. Thats what I'm basing my points on, what was actually said and what actually happened.
And people wonder why I was such an asshole back in the day - its because of these kinds of discussions.
I don't care what SRK thinks - if we all had the same idea on how to make DOA successful and it doesn;t work, then what?
I'm working on people who had the opportunity to go offline but never did. Some of them didn't go because we were assholes,
some didn't think they were good enough. I'm trying to disprove both of those ideas and empower them to take the leap offline.
And guys like Ransuu and Grapefruit man poo pooing their accomplishments are hindering that.
Realize that we aren't all cut from the same competitive cloth and that most people need coaxing.
And hell, if I'm only able to scare up 10 more people from these online events to take it offline then thats 10 more people who might not have played before.
Stop cock blockin me.
I'm referring to the online experience as a whole - endurance matches, tournaments, just playing seriously.
Heres a question; how did your offline play differ from your online play? Matter of fact, you can't even comment on that because you didn't take the game seriously.
The FGC didn't take it seriously because of the heavy damage inflicted and, yet, to drive a further nail into that people from this site (orginally DOAC) insisted that the game be played on NORMAL life AT EVO. So, all of the stereotypes about how easy it is to win in DOA and how the counter button ends more matches than specific strategy got reinforced - Thats shooting yourself in the foot.
Thats why the offline scene is dead, because instead of taking the FGC's crituqes and using them to encourage cross over, everyone said "Blow us, we know DOA, this is how it should be played." Maybe you guys are doing the right thing now but if you had just played the game on largest life back then I bet you wouldn't have so many people with bad tastes in their mouths.
I need you to stop trying to argue with me Grap3. I know your mother told you that you're special but I think you misunderstood
what she was impling on the count of you being an inbred piece of monkey shit - you've been knocking on a door with those comments
for a while dude, now its open and standing on the other side is Julius Rage.
P.S I remember you being so P.O'd back in the day because "People on DOAC were A-holes' and yet you're now neck and neck with Ransuu as the biggest jerkass of them all.
Lastly, I'm not done: Instead of assuming things go to google, find the old DOA threads (Because they still exist) and read what people were saying. Thats what I'm basing my points on, what was actually said and what actually happened.
And people wonder why I was such an asshole back in the day - its because of these kinds of discussions.
I don't care what SRK thinks - if we all had the same idea on how to make DOA successful and it doesn;t work, then what?
I'm working on people who had the opportunity to go offline but never did. Some of them didn't go because we were assholes,
some didn't think they were good enough. I'm trying to disprove both of those ideas and empower them to take the leap offline.
And guys like Ransuu and Grapefruit man poo pooing their accomplishments are hindering that.
Realize that we aren't all cut from the same competitive cloth and that most people need coaxing.
And hell, if I'm only able to scare up 10 more people from these online events to take it offline then thats 10 more people who might not have played before.
Stop cock blockin me.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Ignorance is bliss, and you JR are very ignorant. I believe Rikuto's offer still stands about SRK. Seriously, go post your theory there and see how long it lasts till you are laughed out of existence. I then invite you over to 8wayrun or testyourmight, or vfdc, or zaibatsu... Lets see how long you last on those sites before they ban you for sheer stupidity.
There is nothing wrong with playing online, but pushing online tournaments only breeds ignorance and WILL hurt the community overall. You were not around during the time of doa2u and early doa4 days, but most of the vets here have already seen what happens to a community that attempts to recognize online play. This is seriously deja vu of the old DoA2U days and its pretty damn pathetic. Encouraging online tournaments hurts the community because people WILL NOT bother to leave their house if the feel online is on equal grounds to offline. Why bother getting off the couch when they can brag about winning online? Of course you're an idiot so you can't see the issue here.
There is nothing wrong with playing online, but pushing online tournaments only breeds ignorance and WILL hurt the community overall. You were not around during the time of doa2u and early doa4 days, but most of the vets here have already seen what happens to a community that attempts to recognize online play. This is seriously deja vu of the old DoA2U days and its pretty damn pathetic. Encouraging online tournaments hurts the community because people WILL NOT bother to leave their house if the feel online is on equal grounds to offline. Why bother getting off the couch when they can brag about winning online? Of course you're an idiot so you can't see the issue here.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
That is because they are not accomplishments, and nobody outside of TKP acknowledges that they are.
I am now going to impart holy wisdom onto this thread, and it will tell you exactly what is necessary to make an online fighting game actually work in a competitive environment.
1. Dedicated server nodes that host matches in each region, eliminating peer to peer. This makes latency 100% consistent across every match. Every player is responsible for his own connection, and if his latency is shit it does not effect his opponent at all.
2. Throw break mechanics. Tick throws are and have always been a fundamental problem with DOA online, as there is no real way around them other than straight guessing an interrupt. It has been proven you can break throws on reaction though, even in online fighters. It's done in street fighter, its done in tekken, it's done in soul calibur. it could be done here too.
3. The complete and utter nerfing of all abusable lows. low attacks in any 3d fighter are the absolute bane of online play, and creates an entire new layer of mixups into the game that were never intended to be as deadly and game breaking as they are.
4. The complete removal of delayable strings. These strings, especially online, essentially create a situation where you don't always need frame advantage as you can't really tell when your opponent is done attacking or not. The idea behind frame advantage is to create pressure and keep your opponent defensively guessing, and these strings create kind of a more localized effect of that. With online delay, there is just no way to react properly. If however these strings were removed and it worked like, oh i dont know, every other fighter in existence, it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.
5. The addition of specific frame advantage strings to compensate for lack of pressure options. Since these strings would not be delayable, you can logically analyze the situation you are being put into since that specific string was used and not every other string in the whole damn game.
6. Really damn good netcode.
If all of those things were done in a modern fighter, then yea, it could be played competitively on the interwebs. In fact it'd be fucking huge as esports and casuals would just jump all over it. It's not going to happen though, primarily because of the dedicated regional node thing. The companies that make fighting games are cheap as hell and wouldn't see the benefit in running their own servers for that.
The ones who think they actually have a chance only make up about 5-10% of the entrants on average, based on my experience. My main reason of attending offline events was the gatherings and meetups that occurred outside of the tournament itself. If I happened to win the event, cool, if not it didn't really bother me (except when playing DOA3.1 - that's the only one I took seriously, but again it was a secondary reason). It was just nice to meet up with other people who had a passion for DOA, regardless of what that passion specifically was towards.
Second, there's nothing wrong with having an online tournament for the fun of it. But putting a focus on it, especially one where you're focusing on trying to convert online players to offline by pandering to what they already have a "side" to, is where it goes in a gray area and legitimizes online play to a status of equal to or better than offline play.
There are people who just aren't able to attend offline tournaments and gatherings for various reasons: (1) Distance, (2) Local Competition, (3) Age restrictions, (4) Money issues, or (5) Personal Conflicts. They give such players a chance to compete in a competitive tournament that simulates the offline experience.
For everyone else, "Lag is bad mmkay...".
Let me ask you this JR, would you ever consider requiring the entrants to put money down towards the prize money pool saying the winners get 70-20-10% a'la offline events?
Relius Starkiller
Active Member
Hmm, I think I had a blow up.
I'm sorry, that was wrong.
I think you all have good points but at the end of the day I have a vision and I'm going to do everything that I can to fulfill that vision. Its like Sorwah said, some people just won't be able to travel and an online tournament is something cool for them.
And I wouldn't require anyone to put any money down unless I could guarantee their would be no lag and since I can't do that then I can't ask them to put up anything more than their own time. No one is ever going to make the proclamation that online is better than off because we all know, even people who don't play it competitively know, it isn't.
We aren't going to agree here guys so, I'm done posting in this thread. I appreciate all of your comments, keep doin what you're doin.
Deuces.
I'm sorry, that was wrong.
I think you all have good points but at the end of the day I have a vision and I'm going to do everything that I can to fulfill that vision. Its like Sorwah said, some people just won't be able to travel and an online tournament is something cool for them.
And I wouldn't require anyone to put any money down unless I could guarantee their would be no lag and since I can't do that then I can't ask them to put up anything more than their own time. No one is ever going to make the proclamation that online is better than off because we all know, even people who don't play it competitively know, it isn't.
We aren't going to agree here guys so, I'm done posting in this thread. I appreciate all of your comments, keep doin what you're doin.
Deuces.
Relius Starkiller
Active Member
I know its about a month late on this but, no, I'd never require that.