Why is DOA 5 considered non-competitive ?

[SilverKhaos]

I agree with this. It's favoring learned execution rather than decision-making made by players, which is really what a good game should favor first and foremost. The more a game tells players they need to spend time thinking about how to maximize one decision versus deciding between different ones, the worse off it is. It also creates somewhat artificial barriers; players who might take the time to learn to make excellent reads and gambits aren't always the same people who will want to string moves together.

Plus, it's unsightly. Seriously, fighting games should be about fighting, not people playing a glorified version of virtual volleyball. Games that have some more fantastic or stylistic elements (say, UMvC3 or P4A) can get away with it and sometimes can even make certain juggle situations strategic (always good); in 3D fighters like Tekken, DOA, and VF, the more extreme that element gets the less interesting and dynamic the game looks.

(Not that some insane stuff like characters flying across the stage is necessarily bad, but that's different.)

THIS. SO HARD.

 

[Mailifang]

What I find funny about the DOA haterz is that the very reasons that they bash DOA (Boob physics, fan service,parries, counters,ect)are now in most if not all 3D fighting games. Tekken got multiple counter and parry options. American fighting game players like their games "textbook" and slightly unbalanced. Games that are easily played by "numbers" defined by frame advantage and character strengths are the games of choice for competitive play. The less variance (ie mind games,randomness) in a fighting game the better for most players in the FGC.

Games like the VF series and DOA leave the skill up to the players when it comes down to out witting your opponent because they are not games that are heavily front loaded with options or have game play reliant on abusing or relying on Meter to add depth to the game play. Tekken has so many options to punish your opponent.While games like MK9 and SCV rely on Meter specific strategy to add depth to their respective games.

What irks people about DOA is that just playing by numbers doesn't guarantee success.And punishing your opponent is not always a sure bet because of the counter hold system.

 

[ItsDaveyJ]

I managed to find a review of the game from 1up that managed to word my concerns about the gameplay more eloquently than my previous post. If anyone would like to address this, please do. I really would like to be able to get into this game but it just feels so random. More random than Marvel.

"...but this elaborate game of rock-paper-scissors -- or as they call it, the Triangle System -- is the game's biggest downfall.


In theory, one would think that it would result in high-level mind games where you're constantly putting the opponent in 50/50 mix-up situations or exposing their predictable attacks patterns. In reality, it ends up being a mind-numbing guessing game where solid defense and the honesty of "waiting your turn" to make your next move is thrown out the window. This can be quite frustrating when you've earned the advantage over your opponent, but instead of being able to continue to pressure them with various attack strings, you'll have to think twice about your approach to avoid running into their counters as they mash hold and hope for the best. It's easy to say the Triangle System keeps everything in check, but in the heat of battle you'll see that this isn't the case, and things can get quite messy and very random at times. Again, Holds can be an effective tool for punishing predictable opponents, and I understand how it can be fun for some players who enjoy a frantic and unpredictable pace. But in the long term, it promotes bad habits and poor fighting game fundamentals."

 

[d3v]

Stream Monsters are just bringing up old arguments against DOA4 just to justify them not playing it in favor of the next flavor of the month.

 

[Rikuto]

The thing about the triangle system...

You've got characters that live in the center of it, you've got characters who live in one end of it, and you've got a characters like rig and kokoro who pretty much just ignore it entirely.

I feel like the people who keep resurfacing with the "triangle system is bad" argument are only playing the characters who live right in the center of that system.

If you've spent your entire fighting game career specializing in one type of character, and I take that away from you, of course you aren't going to be happy. People who want guaranteed damage without the threat of the hold need to pick the characters who have it.

And people who excel at RPS have that character type available to them as well. It's win-win, but people need to start playing the characters that can actually do what they want.


I can't put a gun to your head and make you guys play correctly though. People need to start putting in the work. That work does not simply mean "guess better". This isn't DOA 4. Recognize what is available to you.

 

[Mailifang]

I managed to find a review of the game from 1up that managed to word my concerns about the gameplay more eloquently than my previous post. If anyone would like to address this, please do. I really would like to be able to get into this game but it just feels so random. More random than Marvel.

"...but this elaborate game of rock-paper-scissors -- or as they call it, the Triangle System -- is the game's biggest downfall.


In theory, one would think that it would result in high-level mind games where you're constantly putting the opponent in 50/50 mix-up situations or exposing their predictable attacks patterns. In reality, it ends up being a mind-numbing guessing game where solid defense and the honesty of "waiting your turn" to make your next move is thrown out the window. This can be quite frustrating when you've earned the advantage over your opponent, but instead of being able to continue to pressure them with various attack strings, you'll have to think twice about your approach to avoid running into their counters as they mash hold and hope for the best. It's easy to say the Triangle System keeps everything in check, but in the heat of battle you'll see that this isn't the case, and things can get quite messy and very random at times. Again, Holds can be an effective tool for punishing predictable opponents, and I understand how it can be fun for some players who enjoy a frantic and unpredictable pace. But in the long term, it promotes bad habits and poor fighting game fundamentals."

I disagree. As a fighting game player and a former practitioner of a martial art(Jeet kune do) whenever you are in a fight or a combat situation nothing is guaranteed. The only absolute is a winner or a loser.The triangle system works because its balanced and thrives on risk and reward mechanics. Most American high level play consists of playing as safe and calculating as possible. Which is why most high level tourney fights revolve around poking,spacing,ect. But when you introduce elements that force your opponent to constantly mix up your opponents strategy and style of play than you involve the more mental aspects of playing a game. The great games and even professional sports have a balance by the numbers textbook strategy and mental aspects.But then you do have the random nature that comes with human trial and error. Basically shit happens. DOA's game play system doesn't support bad habits.It incorporates and builds on your read and react instincts. You call it a guessing game I call it forcing my opponent into situations to my advantage. Its no different than football coaches changing formations on defense to disguise coverage's or hide blitzes to confuse the other teams offense. Or a a baseball manager making a pitching change.

The pro fighting game players thrive on mind games.Because at the highest level most players know what a character can and cannot do.They know the move sets and frame data.So at the points it comes down to mind games and execution. I am not a by the "numbers" type of player.I am a read and react person. Life is random and people are random.The problem with most players in the American FGC scene is that they want easily attained success without having to put in high amounts work. Then there are those players who put in tons of work in the lab breaking down characters by frame data and numbers to the point they feel they're hard earned time in the lab should gaurantee positive results. Tons of lab work earns you success for heavily front loaded games like Tekken and most 2D fighters. So when you get "textbook " style players to play games like DOA they tend to hate these type of games. They feel DOA is too "random"but that's because they never took the time to play at a high level.

Any game played at casual or fun level is always gonna lead to bad habits. That comes down to the player and not the game. Every fighting game is different. So "fighting game fundamentals" change from game to game.

 

[shunwong]

After being destroyed by a Tina/Bayman player I think the reason some people think DOA is not competitive is the fact that some characters (not every character, like in DOA4) can get a lot of damage from playing pasively (waiting for the other to attack to throw and offensive hold or an advanced hold). When I got the lead on life-bar all the other guy had to do was wait for me to attack. On the other hand, I have no problem with this myself. I think the hold system is OK. After all, if someone punches you in the face in real life you are not going to go "well, now I'm going to let him punch me 20 more times so everything flashes red and..COMBO TIME", you are going to try to hit them back.

 

[Ace Flibble]

But it seems like what people are doing are just throwing out random strings and staggering the inputs of that string. It seems like they are also adjusting the last hit or so of said strings so as to not get predictable and get countered. In the end though, it still feels like people mainly are mashing. As compared to say, Street Fighter where most characters have one or two moves people tend to mash (Shoryuken for example) in this game it seems like people are randomly throwing out one of the many moves their character has in hopes that "well maybe this will work."

That's because you're new to the game. You can't expect to start playing a new game and instantly recognise attack patterns. Of course, there is an element of scrubby players mindlessly mashing buttons or repeating the same one 'easy' string online, but I'd think everybody can recognise that that happens in every fighting game - 'flowchart Ken', anyone?

Spend more time with the game and learn what each character's fighting style looks like, then you'll soon see there's much more method to the madness.

I'd suggest you read this thread too. Bad to toot your own horn, I know, but I feel like reiterating my post from there:
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa5-counter-hold-system-kinda-repetitive.1735/

After being destroyed by a Tina/Bayman player I think the reason some people think DOA is not competitive is the fact that some characters (not every character, like in DOA4) can get a lot of damage from playing pasively (waiting for the other to attack to throw and offensive hold or an advanced hold).

That's what has always drawn me to DOA. It's about psychology more than anything. More than any other game. DOA is the one fighting game where you actually really can capitalise on tricky your opponent and where the best players aren't just the ones that have a photographic memory of frame data spreadsheets, it's the ones who know the mechanics and can execute them in the coolest manner with the most mental control.
It's a game, not an exercise in OCD muscle memory.

 

[shunwong]

That's what has always drawn me to DOA. It's about psychology more than anything. More than any other game. DOA is the one fighting game where you actually really can capitalise on tricky your opponent and where the best players aren't just the ones that have a photographic memory of frame data spreadsheets, it's the ones who know the mechanics and can execute them in the coolest manner with the most mental control.
It's a game, not an exercise in OCD muscle memory.

I like that about DOA too. I think VF is similar: A good read will take you further than execution. Probably the only two games that are that way nowadays, now that SC5 has been fucked IMO because of meter management. I don't know how many times I have found people online that could do half life combos in VF5FS and still lost to me because I read them well. I am not into execution. I don't have time to grind. I just have to get used to DOA's stun + hold system.

 

[SilverKhaos]

That's because you're new to the game. You can't expect to start playing a new game and instantly recognise attack patterns. Of course, there is an element of scrubby players mindlessly mashing buttons or repeating the same one 'easy' string online, but I'd think everybody can recognise that that happens in every fighting game - 'flowchart Ken', anyone?

Spend more time with the game and learn what each character's fighting style looks like, then you'll soon see there's much more method to the madness.

I'd suggest you read this thread too. Bad to toot your own horn, I know, but I feel like reiterating my post from there:
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa5-counter-hold-system-kinda-repetitive.1735/

That's what has always drawn me to DOA. It's about psychology more than anything. More than any other game. DOA is the one fighting game where you actually really can capitalise on tricky your opponent and where the best players aren't just the ones that have a photographic memory of frame data spreadsheets, it's the ones who know the mechanics and can execute them in the coolest manner with the most mental control.
It's a game, not an exercise in OCD muscle memory.

Agreed. I usually do great against opponents in fighting games because they spend the whole match trying to land strings and guaranteed damage, etc, whereas I fight with purely fundamentals and mindgames, which puts me at the advantage, because I'm constantly outmaneuvering them.

I mean...think about this. It got the point where I was countering nearly everything they tried to do because I got a feel for their patterns and playstyle. They sent me a message saying "stop spamming counters". Just think about that statement for a second. Or even better, when I get a message from people saying something along the lines of "lrn some combos scrub". They are completely missing the point of playing DOA, let alone fighting games in general.

 

[Prince Adon]

Simple like said before with a lack of a competitive offline scene is why DOA is considered non competitive. People just like to accuse it of being a "tit" game because they assume that's the only reason people play it(since there is no serious competitive scene to prove other wise). Because you know, games like Tekken, SC, and KOF don't have any fanservice whatsoever(sarcasm).

FGC don't help with acting no different than dumb reviewers/critics who know nothing about the game and just accuse it of still just being a fanservice fest. I personally hate the FGC.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Again, I stress that what makes a game competitive is the pool size of players showing up at events to represent it.

People argue that Smash isn't a competitive fighting game, then they had to shut up when the number dwarfed any of the FGC's local numbers. Then the argument changed to "It's not a fighting game".

So in point, if there are enough players playing the game at offline events and showing off their skills at putting the game in a higher level play style above "button masher", then there shouldn't be any worry about anyone claiming it's not a competitive fighter. That's because you actually have numbers of people who are playing it competitively. It all falls back to the numbers at tournaments because that's what the FGC looks at to measure a game's validity, it's also what Tournament Organizers look for to make money for the venue.

The complaints about a titty fighter, button-mashing, plastic dolls, etc. will always be there, but if enough players are showing up at majors and locals while upping their game then they can't complain it's "not competitive".

 

[shunwong]

Just think about that statement for a second. Or even better, when I get a message from people saying something along the lines of "lrn some combos scrub".

I got a similar one once in VF5FS. A guy who played El Blaze by spamming the same combo over and over (+ super lag) had the balls to rage quit when I was winning. And when I sent him a message asking why, his answer: "I couldn't let you win. No combos"

 

[ItsDaveyJ]

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my posts! They were both helpful and insightful. I'll try approaching the game with a new mindset about how it works. Hopefully I'll get some results.

 

[SilverKhaos]

I got a similar one once in VF5FS. A guy who played El Blaze by spamming the same combo over and over (+ super lag) had the balls to rage quit when I was winning. And when I sent him a message asking why, his answer: "I couldn't let you win. No combos"

Wow. That's just sad.

 

[shinryu]

. It seems like whenever I try to do something, whoever is button mashing on the other end winds up getting the hit in first and stuffing any offense I try to mount. Unless it's someone like Bayman. I especially dread the start of the round because most characters seem to be able to just dash up into my face before the match begins and then throw out their fastest moves which all seem to be faster than mine. I either have to block or counter right away or it seems like guaranteed damage for my opponent at the start of the round.

Well, this is online. That's exactly what's happening; that jackass is mashing his buttons and you're waiting to react properly and anything you do is going to be human reaction+lag behind. It's paradise for mashing and shits on good play, it's just how the lag is. Also, scrubs make any game ever look stupid. VF5FS is arguably the pinnacle of fighting game design (some people would argue VF4Evo, I think DOA5 is very competitive with those honestly). Sit two people down who don't understand the game and watch the stupid flow.

In terms of the triangle system complaints, I think the biggest problem is people don't understand throw punishment (or can't use it very well when they're online); "waiting your turn and then attacking," as the one review put it, actually should result in guaranteed damage in a lot of situations. DOA5 is kind of like a VF where the designers jacked up the throw-punishment knob to 11 and turned the guaranteed attack and frame advantage knob way down. Stagger escaping also is pretty alien to most people and the game definitely doesn't explain it very well, um, ever. People also don't seem to understand how advantaged the attacker is in stun, but maybe that's from playing Tina; I can always, always have at least three options, and all of them will get me varying degrees of decent damage. Maybe it's different for other characters; Mila certainly has some situations that are almost straight 50/50s (after 4f+k at certain distances only 6p+K will really connect, but even then 9k will frequently also work). If anything, I think this game has almost more required matchup knowledge than other fighters; knowing this is when the CB has to come up, this is when only a certain move can continue the combo so it's a good bet to hold, where stagger escaping gets you a block vs. having to hold to get out, and so on. A very small number of people try to get the game (or any game) on that level.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

Again, I stress that what makes a game competitive is the pool size of players showing up at events to represent it.

People argue that Smash isn't a competitive fighting game, then they had to shut up when the number dwarfed any of the FGC's local numbers. Then the argument changed to "It's not a fighting game".

So in point, if there are enough players playing the game at offline events and showing off their skills at putting the game in a higher level play style above "button masher", then there shouldn't be any worry about anyone claiming it's not a competitive fighter. That's because you actually have numbers of people who are playing it competitively. It all falls back to the numbers at tournaments because that's what the FGC looks at to measure a game's validity, it's also what Tournament Organizers look for to make money for the venue.

The complaints about a titty fighter, button-mashing, plastic dolls, etc. will always be there, but if enough players are showing up at majors and locals while upping their game then they can't complain it's "not competitive".

Sure, sure. Spread the gospel and all. But isn't it nice to read this thread and find some really eloquent thoughts as to why this game really deserves a competitive scene. I mean, I am not even an unmitigated fan (I don't like the fan service and the plastic doll feel, for example) and still think it is an interesting game that is certainly worthy of that much, and the responses here to the criticism show why.

Stagger escaping also is pretty alien to most people and the game definitely doesn't explain it very well, um, ever.

I never understood this.

 

[Ace Flibble]

There's a lot the game doesn't explain very well. Things like forced teching, the difference between the various typs of stun, the effect standing in water/on ice has, etc. But I think that's okay. Your typical video game player isn't going to care to learn those details anyway and anybody who wants to put more time into the game will probbaly come online and look those things up.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

There's a lot the game doesn't explain very well. Things like forced teching, the difference between the various typs of stun, the effect standing in water/on ice has, etc. But I think that's okay. Your typical video game player isn't going to care to learn those details anyway and anybody who wants to put more time into the game will probbaly come online and look those things up.

Honestly, I came to the video game community very late and speak regularly via PSN with people who I think would love to be able to know this information but aren't naturally inclined to go online and participate in an online community or find some of the discussion intimidating. I know I did for a while and only bridged the gap because of a good word from a chatty PSN type.

 

[Kritoth]

This is just agreeing with a lot of points made earlier. But these are the things I find frustrating.
Disclaimer: my only deep experience with DOA is DOA2 ultimate so it may have changed since then.

1. All juggle combos being inescapable-
Allowing a simple air control escape would be nice. All the guaranteed damage after a launcher can be very demoralizing to new players. I know when I first played DOA this seemed a huge step backwards from SE/SC.
However: I will say air escapes of any sort should be limited and practical not just done whenever you are juggled.

2. Combo centric gameplay-
IE:Stun opponent/dish out 12 hit combo/rinse repeat. That seems like it limits a defenders options farther than necessary in order to avoid turtle-ing defenses. I have the feeling with all the Tekken's so I'm not singling out DOA. Also I'm not saying do away with combos all together instead limit them to practical applications.

3. This is non gameplay related. But DOA has always had a fun, tongue-in-cheek style that may turn certain people off.
It's had that casual 'get a bunch of friends over and have a couple of beers' feel to it since I remember. Things that aren't super serious are looked at negatively by many nowadays.