Why Phase 4 is considered unsafe whereas characters such as Ayane are safe?

NeverBe

New Member
I am new here. I m currently searching about the "Safety" topic. There are a lot of information online, but it is pretty hard for a new player like me to really understand them. I really like phase 4 as a character, but it seems that she is pretty unsafe. I am just curious what does "unsafe" (and why Ayane is "safe") and how is it going to affect the gameplay?

Thank you!
 

Juihau

Well-Known Member
When people refer to a character as being safe, it generally means that they have a good number of moves that are safe on block. Likewise, a character who doesn't have many is called unsafe. If you want to see what moves are safe or unsafe on block, what you want to do is go into training, pause, set "move details" to left (or right, if your hp bar is on the right side of the screen), and set the training dummy to block all attacks.

First, I'll give a drastic oversimplification. Look at number labelled 'advantage' in the top right of the details box. Have the dummy block any move. If that number is -7 or less, the move is unsafe. If it is -4 or more, it's safe.

In more detail, though, that number shows the difference in recovery for both characters, the bigger the number, the bigger the difference, and is generally categorized with three labels: Advantage, neutral, and disadvantage. Disadvantage also has three further subcategories: Safe, semi-safe and unsafe.

In DoA, the most effective way to punish a blocked move is usually to throw, so that's the measure by which a move is judged safe or unsafe. If a move is unsafe, that means that after blocking the move, your opponent can use a command throw on you, and there's no way you can prevent it. Command throws are unbreakable, and you don't leave recovery fast enough to avoid it or retaliate. Since most characters have a command throw with a 7 frame start up, this means that any move that leaves you at -8 or less can be punished this way. Some characters, like Tina, have a 6 frame command throw, so this number changes to -7.

If a move is semi-safe, it means that the only way they can punish it is with a neutral throw. Neutral throws are faster than command throws, but they can be broken, so you're not guaranteed to take damage from it. Most characters have a 5 frame neutral throw, so a move that is -6 or -7 can only be punished this way. Again, some characters such as Tina have 4 frame neutral throws, so this becomes -5 or -6 against them.

If a move is safe, it means that, while it still leaves you at disadvantage, your opponent has no means of punishing you for it. If they try to throw you, you can crouch, or even strike, thwarting any punishment attempts. However, you are still at disadvantage, so if you both tried to use a quick strike after it, they will still hit you first. A move that is safe is -1 to -5 for most characters, and -1 to -4 for special cases.

Hope this helped. I can try to explain a bit better if there's something you don't get.
 

Giannola

Well-Known Member
I am new here. I m currently searching about the "Safety" topic. There are a lot of information online, but it is pretty hard for a new player like me to really understand them. I really like phase 4 as a character, but it seems that she is pretty unsafe. I am just curious what does "unsafe" (and why Ayane is "safe") and how is it going to affect the gameplay?

Thank you!
Hi. Is the question you're asking "what makes a move unsafe?" A move is unsafe if the opponent can punish the move with a guaranteed follow-up, and there's nothing you can do. Throws are the fastest moves in the game and are the most common punishment of unsafe moves.
 

NeverBe

New Member
When people refer to a character as being safe, it generally means that they have a good number of moves that are safe on block. Likewise, a character who doesn't have many is called unsafe. If you want to see what moves are safe or unsafe on block, what you want to do is go into training, pause, set "move details" to left (or right, if your hp bar is on the right side of the screen), and set the training dummy to block all attacks.

First, I'll give a drastic oversimplification. Look at number labelled 'advantage' in the top right of the details box. Have the dummy block any move. If that number is -7 or less, the move is unsafe. If it is -4 or more, it's safe.

In more detail, though, that number shows the difference in recovery for both characters, the bigger the number, the bigger the difference, and is generally categorized with three labels: Advantage, neutral, and disadvantage. Disadvantage also has three further subcategories: Safe, semi-safe and unsafe.

In DoA, the most effective way to punish a blocked move is usually to throw, so that's the measure by which a move is judged safe or unsafe. If a move is unsafe, that means that after blocking the move, your opponent can use a command throw on you, and there's no way you can prevent it. Command throws are unbreakable, and you don't leave recovery fast enough to avoid it or retaliate. Since most characters have a command throw with a 7 frame start up, this means that any move that leaves you at -8 or less can be punished this way. Some characters, like Tina, have a 6 frame command throw, so this number changes to -7.

If a move is semi-safe, it means that the only way they can punish it is with a neutral throw. Neutral throws are faster than command throws, but they can be broken, so you're not guaranteed to take damage from it. Most characters have a 5 frame neutral throw, so a move that is -6 or -7 can only be punished this way. Again, some characters such as Tina have 4 frame neutral throws, so this becomes -5 or -6 against them.

If a move is safe, it means that, while it still leaves you at disadvantage, your opponent has no means of punishing you for it. If they try to throw you, you can crouch, or even strike, thwarting any punishment attempts. However, you are still at disadvantage, so if you both tried to use a quick strike after it, they will still hit you first. A move that is safe is -1 to -5 for most characters, and -1 to -4 for special cases.

Hope this helped. I can try to explain a bit better if there's something you don't get.
Thank you! That explains a lot. So basically Phase 4 has very few moves that fall into the "safe" category, and Ayane is considered "safe" because she has more "safe" moves in her arsenal, am I right?
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
This is what I love about the DOA community! Helping other people out even though they are new. Juihau already explained everything in fine detail, so I don't have anything to add. Just wanted to say I like reading these threads where no hate, flaming or other childish behavior is involved at all.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
I suppose Frame Trap will saved for some other time.

Theres actually a bunch of things to go over that could be overehelming if explained all at once.
 

tokiopewpew

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Beside the fact that no one was asking for explanations about frame traps, those are a completely different topic than unsafety and punishment.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Beside the fact that no one was asking for explanations about frame traps, those are a completely different topic than unsafety and punishment.

I consider them to be related.....

Specifically I refer to all those concepts as "Advantage Time".
 

NeverBe

New Member
Pretty much, yeah.
I really appreciate your detailed response! And this is probably now a little off-topic, but I am still wondering, given the unsafety of Phase 4, why people still use her, even in some tournaments (I think Kwiggle used her quite frequently)? I guessed that there could be some practical reasons, such as a "secret-weapon" character since Phase 4 seems not as popular as the other characters so that there is fewer counter strategies against her, or Phase 4 has some really juicy "advantage" that compensates her "unsafety and makes it worth the risk"
 

NeverBe

New Member
Keep in mind that some moves will leave you at -7 or more but are still considered safe due to pushback, thus leaving you out of the range of most throws. The most obvious one for Phase is H+K.
Thank you for the fill-up! Am I able to obtain this information of range and push-back from game (like the window that shows frames in training), or simply by experience?
 

KasumiLover

xX_APO_Prince_Xx
Premium Donor
I really appreciate your detailed response! And this is probably now a little off-topic, but I am still wondering, given the unsafety of Phase 4, why people still use her, even in some tournaments (I think Kwiggle used her quite frequently)? I guessed that there could be some practical reasons, such as a "secret-weapon" character since Phase 4 seems not as popular as the other characters so that there is fewer counter strategies against her, or Phase 4 has some really juicy "advantage" that compensates her "unsafety and makes it worth the risk"
She's hard to use when it comes to opening up players, but when she starts teleporting and stunning, she's pretty scary to deal with.
By the way, if you wanted to get her overall frame data and move properties, I made a beginner guide a month ago that gives you her frames and stuff like that if you need them.
 

NeverBe

New Member
She's hard to use when it comes to opening up players, but when she starts teleporting and stunning, she's pretty scary to deal with.
By the way, if you wanted to get her overall frame data and move properties, I made a beginner guide a month ago that gives you her frames and stuff like that if you need them.
Yup! I saw it! Actually it was your data that led me into this forum :)
 

tokiopewpew

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I consider them to be related.....

Specifically I refer to all those concepts as "Advantage Time".

Well, from a pure technical point of view, they are related since frame advantage plays a role. However, the awareness of safety (or unsafety) characters have when getting blocked or whiffing stuff is more a general but yet crucial thing a player needs to have if he wants to be kinda successful in this game.

Once you've figured out some moves for throw punishment and have a little idea of the frame mechanics the OP asked to have explained, you will learn pretty fast when you are allowed or supposed to press a button against the characters you fight against. In fact, you will do so without even being in the need of taking a look to any frame data sheet because most moves that look unsafe in this game are that.

That means, having a basic idea of how safe / unsafe you and the opponent are is both a basic and essential requirement.

Frame traps on the other hand are a short chapter in the subject of opportunities for offensive and momentum control. They are a very character specific thing, since not even all members of the roster have access to them (if you exclude generic guard breaks) and you don't need to know them to be able to fight and win against those who can use them.

Once you pay at least a bit attention to the things above and got counter-hit after blocking a certain string or move and attempting a punish, you will recognize that you better stop doing so. Beginners have no clue of how safe or unsafe attacks are anyway, so they will not even know if the move they blocked will create a frame trap or if the reason they got stunned was one.

Thereby, frame traps are something you take a look at once you've created a fundamental base of knowledge about the game mechanics and you are looking for more ways to improve your offensive gameplay by digging deeper into a characters abilities. Doing so before is indeed overwhelming and simply unprofitable.
 
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Lulu

Well-Known Member
Hmmmmmm...... Fair Enough.

I suppose I only Brought it up because for the longest time I kept getting my ass handed to me by Rig and I didn't know why.

Sure other characters have Frame traps but they only used them like once each match so I never noticed and getting counter hit that one time never cost me the match. Then comes Rig and I always get counter hit and I always lose. :( glad those days are over.
 

Juihau

Well-Known Member
I really appreciate your detailed response! And this is probably now a little off-topic, but I am still wondering, given the unsafety of Phase 4, why people still use her, even in some tournaments (I think Kwiggle used her quite frequently)? I guessed that there could be some practical reasons, such as a "secret-weapon" character since Phase 4 seems not as popular as the other characters so that there is fewer counter strategies against her, or Phase 4 has some really juicy "advantage" that compensates her "unsafety and makes it worth the risk"
What @KasumiLover69 said, she has some strong points, it's just that she has some trouble getting through an opponent's defense. Safety (or lack thereof) is only one attribute of a character, and she may have other things that help her compensate for that particular weakness. I don't actually play Phase 4 myself, though, so I can't really tell you exactly what she has to compensate for it. Sorry.
 

KasumiLover

xX_APO_Prince_Xx
Premium Donor
What @KasumiLover69 said, she has some strong points, it's just that she has some trouble getting through an opponent's defense. Safety (or lack thereof) is only one attribute of a character, and she may have other things that help her compensate for that particular weakness. I don't actually play Phase 4 myself, though, so I can't really tell you exactly what she has to compensate for it. Sorry.
She does have some ways to get through some tough defense : 46T, PP2K, 1K, and 2P are moves I like to use if an opponent is being stubborn. Her other moves like 1PP, 2K, 2H+K, and 6K2K are much to slow and risky to me, which makes her neutral game pretty slow, unlike Kasumi. But her stronger juggles, scarier stun game, and tele-cancels are a good enough compensation.
 
Well, Phase 4 has 9f jab, 11f mid and 14f mid tracking, so I don't think she would get too much trouble for open up anyone. She's just not strong in aggressive play because she's lacking the long string to mix thing up. Be patient and wait for the chance to strike back, once you get a counter hit and stun the opponent, you will gain control.
 
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