"You are tearing me apart, Lisa!" The Lisa Strategy thread

[Neige]

~ / - - (Deja Vu) is my favorite mixup with lisa

most of the time people expect you to finish the string but you can blow them up (if they hold) with and create space for some Carrera mind fucking. Of course I dont need to explain Deja Vu lol.

honorable mention to

i never see anyone use this mixup that goes straight into BT.....its pretty boss imo

How well does cancelling work? I'm asking because that string gives a lot of stun frames, such that if you make it a business of trying to cancel immediately to throw, you'll more than likely whiff. For the record, gives between 20 to 30 stun frames; almost good enough to cancel into CB reliably.

 

[Gruff757]

How well does cancelling work? I'm asking because that string gives a lot of stun frames, such that if you make it a business of trying to cancel immediately to throw, you'll more than likely whiff. For the record, gives between 20 to 30 stun frames; almost good enough to cancel into CB reliably.

yeah I know thats why I said if they hold it.

i dont normally go for cb combos simply cause i always find some way to fuck them up mid match. until i get better at them, i'll just use some nice little mixup combos and add in some throws at times to keep things simple for myself

 

[ailingeternity]

Gruff, look at the CB thread, she does struggle a little but she still has accessible ways to perform CB. There's some good info there.

How well does cancelling work? I'm asking because that string gives a lot of stun frames, such that if you make it a business of trying to cancel immediately to throw, you'll more than likely whiff. For the record, gives between 20 to 30 stun frames; almost good enough to cancel into CB reliably.

It's +20 as a shakable stun, so it misses out on CB by a margin. CB can be used on an unshaken . It's still a great move for hold punishing though as most see coming.

 

[Gruff757]

Gruff, look at the CB thread, she does struggle a little but she still has accessible ways to perform CB. There's some good info there.


It's +20 as a shakable stun, so it misses out on CB by a margin. CB can be used on an unshaken . It's still a great move for hold punishing though as most see coming.

my point exactly

 

[ailingeternity]

So guys and dolls what can we request for the upcoming patch TN have posted.

Anything worth mentioning to make Lisa's game better?

These are just some suggestions:

- is still mega punishable on block, needs to be safer so 12f throws can't punish it.
- Hitbox on BT needs to be tweaked or made bigger, there are many instances after force tech where it can whiff.
- booty bump should be a mid k hold only.
- to have less recovery, enough to allow a CB that cannot be slow escaped.
- Swap and but give a damage nerf to the latter.
- needs to do more damage and have slighty better range, for the speed it is, it's a poor OH.
- Change . Make it a better tool for closing distance, like a quicker that isn't an OH. Much like Kasumi's .
- I want the way it was in Dimensions (Amazing move).
- Make /carrera track, it would make it a better move to start offense.
- Carrera moves in general need to be faster in order to initiate a fierce pressure game, without that it's easily interrupted.
- would be better if it allowed juggling after with moves from carrera (air grab anyone?).
- Sidestep from to cancel as well as carrera? This would be an awesome move to control distance with.
- back to trip stun. Lisa has terrible lows as it is anyway and needs something to help initiate pressure.

That's all for now, may edit later...

 

[Batcommander]

I pretty much agree with everything you (and everyone else for that matter) have said. As long as there no Lisa nerfs, then i'm good with anything. At this point, we can only go up, i hope. It doesn't hurt our case considering how most people think she is low tier trash, so yay for us! You should just tweet that whole list of suggestions to TN, it wouldn't hurt at all.

I'm on the fence with 1K returning to trip stun. I like having it as a knockdown, it's saved me so many times. On the other other hand there is no point to the followups. If it did go back to trip stun, i wouldn't mind though. The followups should be buffed too, they're totally useless.

This would never happen, but 6P8K being a natural combo on counter hit would be beyond awesome.

I would like 2P and 2K to do something though, those moves are both garbage.

BT FK needs to be looked at, it could be potentially useful if it didn't cause such massive pushback.

I would really like to see 3K buffed somehow. It's a nice low crush, and it would be neat if you could use it from BT, or if it was a little safer on block (preferably + on block), and/or caused sitdown against crouchers(yes please).

I know everyone thinks Lisa's 9K is this thing to be feared, but i've been crushed and held so many times with it i use it sparingly or as oki only. It would be nice if 9K got a speed buff or caused sitdown on NH.

I think all moves in Carrera should be sped up, it's pretty lackluster as a pressure tool. I think 66K being slower in Carrera was a complete oversight on their part.

Splash should not be so easily crushed, and especially not the feint. It needs some sort of hitbox adjustment.

Since Lisa is one of the characters that has to rely on stun game to win, CB should be faster. It's nuts that Kokoro's is only like 14 frames and so easy to land. Also, it would be great if it was usable in BT, and even preferably faster in BT.

I'm fine with Lisa not being able to crush fast mids, since she's good at crushing highs and lows. Actually, if none of the things above make it, i'd be fine too.

 

[Gruff757]

I pretty much agree with everything you (and everyone else for that matter) have said. As long as there no Lisa nerfs, then i'm good with anything. At this point, we can only go up, i hope. It doesn't hurt our case considering how most people think she is low tier trash, so yay for us! You should just tweet that whole list of suggestions to TN, it wouldn't hurt at all.

I'm on the fence with 1K returning to trip stun. I like having it as a knockdown, it's saved me so many times. On the other other hand there is no point to the followups. If it did go back to trip stun, i wouldn't mind though. The followups should be buffed too, they're totally useless.

This would never happen, but 6P8K being a natural combo on counter hit would be beyond awesome.

I would like 2P and 2K to do something though, those moves are both garbage.

BT FK needs to be looked at, it could be potentially useful if it didn't cause such massive pushback.

I would really like to see 3K buffed somehow. It's a nice low crush, and it would be neat if you could use it from BT, or if it was a little safer on block (preferably + on block), and/or caused sitdown against crouchers(yes please).

I know everyone thinks Lisa's 9K is this thing to be feared, but i've been crushed and held so many times with it i use it sparingly or as oki only. It would be nice if 9K got a speed buff or caused sitdown on NH.

I think all moves in Carrera should be sped up, it's pretty lackluster as a pressure tool. I think 66K being slower in Carrera was a complete oversight on their part.

Splash should not be so easily crushed, and especially not the feint. It needs some sort of hitbox adjustment.

Since Lisa is one of the characters that has to rely on stun game to win, CB should be faster. It's nuts that Kokoro's is only like 14 frames and so easy to land. Also, it would be great if it was usable in BT, and even preferably faster in BT.

I'm fine with Lisa not being able to crush fast mids, since she's good at crushing highs and lows. Actually, if none of the things above make it, i'd be fine too.

I know you said there is no reason for anyone to hold low against BT stance with Lisa.......BUT I still have trouble against low holders because I think about everything is too slow to punish it and her Splash completely whiffs against them (which is bullshit in my opinion). I still wish she had a low throw in BT. Oh well.....

 

[DR2K]

Use her bt 4k against low holders.

 

[Gruff757]

Use her bt 4k against low holders.

Alright man, I'll try that out. Thanks.

 

[Batcommander]

Alright man, I'll try that out. Thanks.

Lisa has lots of good mids to use against low holders; the low holders will get hurt if they spam it. BT 4P should launch them too, into air throw, that'll teach them to respect your mids, then you can try mixing up with BT 7K.

 

[Gruff757]

Lisa has lots of good mids to use against low holders; the low holders will get hurt if they spam it. BT 4P should launch them too, into air throw, that'll teach them to respect your mids, then you can try mixing up with BT 7K.

Hmmm...okay ^_^

I still wish her splash didnt whiff against them

 

[Batcommander]

Hmmm...okay ^_^

I still wish her splash didnt whiff against them

You can try using the splash feint (P+K, F) and will end behind them (most of the time), though you will still be at a bit of disadvantage.

 

[Tones]

1k does trip stun.

I don't agree with those character changes to Lisa. However, pp as a natural combo on counter hit or if you get their back....

 

[Mr.Kwiggle]

with the splash..why is it that if they get hit with ppp and then the opponent counters low, she flies clear over them. Needs to be fixed. I also agree that she needs faster moves from carrera. The punch is a high and its slow which means all someone has to do is duck or do a high crush move. The p+k needs work also, it is a mid hit yet sometimes someone will do a high crush move and she will be interrupted or a low sweep and she flies over them again.The move doesn't even hit instantly and can be throw punished even though it breaks guard, wtf?? Aside from that I think she just needs a few faster moves in general since she seems to get totally destroyed by over-aggressive fast characters. Other than those few things I think she is fine.

 

[ailingeternity]

1k does trip stun.

I don't agree with those character changes to Lisa.

Ok, let me justify the reason why I'd like this change to happen;

In DOA4 was one of her best moves (easily top 3). The reason for this is because it was a high crush and it granted her a good 50/50. was +15 on NH which was enough for to connect and start a stun game but since it was the only go to move after it's either eat a or eat an OH ( in DOA4). It's possible to add in a Deja Vu for big damage if the OP tries to hold but was a much safer option since Deja Vu is at risk of taking a Hi-Counter Strike.

In DOA5 it's still a high crush but is now a KD and is a true tracking move, this changes what Lisa can do after completely. Let's look deeper into this. What are knockdowns best for? Initiating a ground game or starting pressure when teched. The KD from however offers extremely little in terms of pressure. If the opponent chooses to attempt a wake-up kick, the only guaranteed move to connect is another which is poor damage, otherwise Lisa has to stay on the defense vs. the wake-up kick. is guaranteed after lands in any situation but it's techable and again poor damage. Also note that when is teched Lisa has space to work with but in terms to extering pressure she has slow, steppabble and punishable options to close in with (, , , , ). Sidestepping kills her after teching she has real trouble closing the gap. If it's going to be a KD it needs to have better guaranteed follow-ups. As for it tracking, you still have to gauge when to use it as a step-killer, it has range but it's slow too at 21f. I'd rather play my game forcing holds for bigger damage and use for a step-killer and stun instead especially since it has some good follow-ups, is faster, covers more range, and is a high crush as well.

As a trip stun, it would give her better offensive options ( mixed with Deja Vu in particular ), other than this all she has for a low is her BT moves which require the transition limiting accessibility, her , and her awful and . I truly believe that making a trip stun again would exceedingly help her lacking mix-up game.

Maybe it's just the way I play Lisa, but if anyone can convince me how is better now than in DOA4, please, I implore you to tell me why.

 

[Tones]

In 4 nothing was guaranteed from it because of slow escaping. In DOA5 1k still trips stuns, just not on close hit and on counter.

I'm going to break down how I use 1k...

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​

Close/Knock down​

Knock down. Free cancel and follow up with 1k. If they tech you have set up the follow up 2k, continue tool. If they tech don't force get up +15/16.​

​

Far​

On hit, follow up 1k to force knock down or continue as following. Trip stun (counter/hi counter) +8-15, Normal hit +5-10. Follow up with dash OH, copy tool, start new tool, or dash back and play it safe. Gamble with combo throw follow up.​

​

Just whiff range​

Use to bait interrupts, if both hits whiff follow up with 2k. See above. Don't follow up if they successfully low crush (I say successfully because often her big feet hits them during the crush).​

Tools are little games you play with her. Examples are working for CB, screwing around with carrera, working the frame advantage (ppp, 6k+f), stun then PB, jab throw.

___________________________

That is why it's better. This is also why I dislike people saying this, this and this that needs changing. It's inversed logic...

See how dimensional it is compared to if it just knocked down or trip stunned? I'm against a change of the 1k only trip stunning and 2k follow up to knocked down because it would give them an opportunity to counter.

 

[Batcommander]

I don't really like 1K at mid distance. The reason is that if the first kick whiffs and the second kick hits, you're at a serious disadvantage, less so on counter hit. I think it's a bit unreliable at that distance since if the opponent moves any closer, they get the knockdown. The trip stun sucks at that range since nothing is guaranteed; if they slow escape it, you're getting less than 15. Even if you get the full advantage, you won't be able to land anything after it.

PP on hit into qcf OH is something new i've been toying around with. PP gives exactly 20 on hit, and qcf OH is 20 frames so it's a pretty good catch. Mixup with 6P shenanigans.

 

[Tones]

You're at like +3-5 if the first hits but the second whiffs.

If they slow escape throw. If they do other, attack.

 

[Batcommander]

You're at like +3-5 if the first hits but the second whiffs.

If they slow escape throw. If they do other, attack.

true, but you're at -20 if the first hit whiffs. I dunno, the trip stun is too unreliable to use imo; sometimes 1K lands a trip stun, sometimes it whiffs the first or second kick, sometimes it knockdowns.

 

[Tones]

I'm guessing that's got to do with the hit boxes being extended due to them attacking or whatever. Either way I'm fine with it.

Then 2k again if it looks like they are going to punish.

It's a trip stun on counter and high counter so if you interrupt them... I've never seen knockdown from one hit unless they're doing some sort of jumping attack (someone I do with Brad Wong to keep out of the stun and juggle game). WHICH REMINDS ME... 9p to set up her wake up throw. If they interrupt you while she has her back turned and hand springing you land face up head towards.