Your General Complaints about DoA and Other Fighting Games?

[Lulu]

Can't be as bad as Injustice to where you lose 40% health because you jumped.



It is good.




It is good for everyone.

Thats not for you to decide.... and you can also lose 40% of your health because you crouched as well.....

 

[DestructionBomb]

Thats not for you to decide.... and you can also lose 40% of your health because you crouched as well.....

It is me to decide because I wrote it and you responded to it. Clearly you have an issue understanding metaphors. You are only denying it because you are too stubborn to understand anything and become oblivious to your very own posts.

Crouching is a natural mistake in making depth reads or fuzzy situations. Jumping however, is another story to where you are likely providing more freedom and thinking power to the player who is already on the offense or zoning criteria. Think before you post.

 

[Lulu]

It is me to decide because I wrote it and you responded to it. Clearly you have an issue understanding metaphors. You are only denying it because you are too stubborn to understand anything and become oblivious to your very own posts.

LoL.... theres nothing to understand.... you didn't explain anything as usual, Thats your M.O.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Before I did, but *now* I won't. This discussion is over and it's time to go back to the topic at hand while I read these posts.

 

[Lulu]

Before I did, but *now* I won't. This discussion is over and it's time to go back to the topic at hand while I read these posts.

LoL... I'm sure you believe you did... and how can the discussion be over if it barely even started ?

 

[d3v]

I'm pretty sure you did.... is this you changing your mind ?

Considering some of the stuff I wrote on the subject predates us ever talking in this thread. I'd say no.

In any case, my stance has always been that:
-There will always be execution required for high level stuff.
-Basic stuff should have the execution be easier
-Special move inputs still have a place in fighting games

The fundamental difference that we're arguing about is basically the last point. You'd rather not deal with quarter circles and stuff, and I believe they're a fundamental part of what makes fighting games what they are.

And making inputs difficult is going to solve the problem of Reversal being to weak or too strong ?

I'm not here to argue balance... I'm here to argue Execution has got nothing to do with Balance... MK/Injustices Issues have nothing to do with Execution..... if theres something wrong with the reversal mechanic then fix the mechanic... its that simple.

Because a special move input (and not just 1 or 2 buttons together), means that whoever needs to do it has to think and consider what to do. If someone's flustered, they shouldn't be able to simply mash out a reversal.

I should clarify that one of those 6 buttons would be The Fireball Button.... and before you start about losing one of your Six Normals I'd like to point that you don't need 6 of them MK did just fine with 3.... DoA is Awesome with just 2.... I'd also like to point out that the six button set up is already complicated.... complaining about adding one more is kind of a moot point.

History has shown how a Street Fighter style game with less than the 6 buttons doesn't really work as well, just look at how nobody looks fondly on CvS1. Whenever they do this, what seems to lose out the most are the medium normals, arguably the most important set of normals in Street Fighter. These are core footsie normals such as Ryu and Chun Li's low forward, Rose' low strong, Cammy's standing forward, etc.

Yet you cant just add these back in and take other normals out. In the best Street Fighter (and Street Fighter based games) just about every normal has a purpose in the neutral game and you are forced to learn how to use almost all of them (certainly more than you could map into just 2, 3 or even 4 buttons).

Yes we really do want a Balanced Game.... if Seth or anyone says other wise even in context then they are more than welcome to remove the Akuma and Old Sagat ban and see exactly how much they enjoy an Unbalanced Game..... those of us with who have common sennse will take the balanced game.... and feel free to look your nose down on us when we do. Thats what I have to say about "you don't really want a balanced game".... because thats just a stupid thing to say.

Old Sagat was never banned. The "soft ban" applied only to a select few arcades in Japan, yet major tournaments still allowed him.

And it doesn't matter anyway, ST's meta is good enough and the match ups interesting enough that even O. Sagat doesn't just dominate and he has his own set of counter picks (just like everyone else in the cast).

Moving on.... its true that most attempts at balancing the game end up sacrificing variety..... so should we leave the game unbalanced ? This is exactly the type of attitude I'm talking about.... its just an excuse for developers to be lazy and for competitors to forever have an advantage.

Sirlin wrote several Articles about what went down when he designed SFHDR.... Your answers lie in there.

"And then I had the honor and burden of improving upon what I consider the very best Street Fighter game ever: Super Turbo. Many people said it's impossible to improve upon the polished gem of ST and there were lots of obstacles to even getting this new gameplay in the game. Dozens and dozens of times people told me I couldn't do it, wasn't allowed to do it, and other discouraging things. Wayne Gretzky said, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take," so I took my shot."

I don't know how Remix turned out but atleast he had the balls to try instead of making excuses.

Remix was meh. Sirlin's had on for yomi meant that moves were tuned way too much for yomi in favor of pure positional advantage.

3. If the reason you play Fighting Games is for execution then you have point and I wouldn't dare try to argue against it..... but thats not why I play fighting games so yes I dismiss the entire concept of execution. But obviously the technology to make that possible just isn't there.... anyway theres more to execution than just what motions you use.... my specific problem with Execution is the leniency of those motions..... so even though
something likeor is fine but if you have a less than 8 frames to do it then we are right back to square one.... pretty sure Capcom did that just to troll people who asked them to lower the execution barrier just like they did when they added the "Link Before you cancel into Super" rule in Street Fighter IV.

Then you might as well just quite fighting games because execution will always be part of the genre, no matter how easy you make things.

4. Okay then let me modify the analogy.... the sprinklers don't go off randomly... they go off every 60 Seconds..... does that suddenly make it less stupid ? I really wana know your answer.

Except players don't have control over this. Execution is basically Striker A and Striker B taking the same shot, but one of them getting it off because they practiced more.

Theres a very very very obvious concept that you just seem to be refusing to grasp on purpose.... I'm going to try this one more time.
Lets use Street Fighter 4 as an Example.
"Another similar bug is the chain combo cancel bug. As an example, consider Sakura. Low short does cancel into special moves. But if you rapid fire the low short (do it 2 or 3 times quickly each one cancels the last) then you CANNOT cancel the last hit into a special. I'm not saying this is a problem at all, necessarily. This restriction is there for good reason: to prevent the game from degenerating into low short -> big damage stuff. It would make more sense to give players a reason to start combos with bigger moves sometimes. Guilty Gear does a great job of this by reducing your entire combo's damage by 20% for each low short. (Hey Guilty Gear players, I know I'm simplifying there.)

Ok so what's the problem, sounds good that you can't do low short, low short, special move, right? But you can do it. If you make the last short a link rather than a chain (do it slowly, but not so slow that it doesn't combo) then you can cancel it into a special move. So really, you can get around this restriction if only you have high dexterity skills. Now, this is also true in ST and SF HD Remix, but that's not so much intent as what we were stuck with. For an entirely new game, I'm surprised to see this still there. I'm even more surprised to see combos that use this in the challenge mode, meaning the developers know about it and accept that low short is really this powerful. SF4 Sakura, for example, can low short, (link), low short, ex shoryken, ultra. She can do a lot more than that, but you get the idea."
You have absolutely no reason not to do this.... for all intensive purpose this portion of Street Fighter is SOLVED. The only people who are still going to use difficult combos to get their damage is people who can't link into supers.... they are stuck using slower unsafer moves to open combos with so they can get the same damage. This also circles back to why you don't need six buttons.... people are bypassing them anyway.

That's a problem with the IV's overall design and issues than it is with Street Fighter.

First up, none of the combos in challenge mode are meant to be practical. The stuff there was mostly figured out to be impractical BS within a week of the community getting the game.

SFIV lights being strong was a result of some of the inherrent problems with that version of the game's system. From Focus Attacks neutralizing strong mid and long range pokes, to the most important one, the plinking glitch that allowed for supposed impractical 1 frame link combos to be done consistently.

The thing is Street Fighter has had extended combos from lights before, these were just impractical combos that you'd only see used in some fancy combo video that was never meant to practical use.

I'd also like to point that you said ealier that you had problems regarding using execution to balance things out.... perhaps I can go to bed and you can argue with yourself... you already have what you need: two opposing statements.

See, the problem here is that you're dividing everything into 2 extremes, when that definitely isn't the case. Especially when we have games that don't use execution for balance but still use the other aspects of special move inputs to provide for a varied moveset.

I'm sorry but what you're describing just isn't very competitive... infact it doesn't even make sense. The fact that you knocked someone down IS your advantage... what you want is another advantage on top of the one you alread have..... thats exactly the very thing thats going to turn DoA into MKX when you give them no options after being downed.... I'd also like to point out the wake up kicks aren't even that powerfull anyway, you can shut both of them down by using a down attack. And you sure as hell aren't going to weaken them by changing their inputs to increase their chances of failure.

Knockdown only becomes advantageous when you get initiative from it, either from positional advantage, or by limiting your opponents options out of it. A good part of why people liked oki and stuff like Force Techs, is because of this. Without this, the knockdowns risk becoming situations where the attacker just stops and waits to react to the knocked down opponent, which robs them of the initiative.

Your P4 examples are flimsy.... if the reversals are too strong then fix them... changing their inputs means only the people with Better dexterity can always do them.... the reason this scenario is solved is because the mechanic solved.... changing the input isn't going to change how long its going to take to solve it. It's alreadt solved by anybody who can do it.... you just alienated a bunch of players for litrally no reason.

Already mentioned this above. By making it two buttons, it makes it easier for people to just mash out. There's no consideration of the mental resources, the presence of mind needed to input a command on knockdown to get a reversal out in time.

This is the exact same criticism that has been leveled at the P4A series ever since the beginning. And you can't just weaken the reversals either, because what makes being able to mash reversals a bad idea is what makes reversals work as reversals in the first place.

 

[Lulu]

Considering some of the stuff I wrote on the subject predates us ever talking in this thread. I'd say no.

In any case, my stance has always been that:
-There will always be execution required for high level stuff.
-Basic stuff should have the execution be easier
-Special move inputs still have a place in fighting games

The fundamental difference that we're arguing about is basically the last point. You'd rather not deal with quarter circles and stuff, and I believe they're a fundamental part of what makes fighting games what they are.

You're wrong.... this is the fundemental part of what makes fighting games what they are:

Its the fundemental part of any competitive activity that has a strategic element to it.... EVERY SINGLE ONE. Thats Yomi. The only reason execution has a place in it is because theres no way around it in a real time fighting game.... mind you thats not a reason to make inputs arbitrarily difficult to do because "serves a purpose".... and before you pull out the "I never said make them arbitrary" card I'd like to remind that I asked what that purpose is and you said it was to increase the chances of failure.... that is arbitrary.

Now if you play fighting games for the execution and not for the competitive strategy then yeah... I see why you think the way do and don't contest it.... you think of them as some sort of Olympic Sport like Throwing a Javelin where its Man vs. Nature instead of a Competitive Sport like Boxing or Football where its Man vs. Man.... thats fine.... just say it and put an end to this sillyness

Because a special move input (and not just 1 or 2 buttons together), means that whoever needs to do it has to think and consider what to do. If someone's flustered, they shouldn't be able to simply mash out a reversal.

Actually they should.... the whole point of flustering them is to make them believe that they can't.... to sow doubt into something they know to be as true as the very ground they stand on..... thats Yomi. That is ofcourse if the Reversals are punishable.... if reversals are so powerfull that they can't be countered then what do you exect.... Ofcourse people are going to mash them out... making them harder only means people with better dexterity get to mash them out.... IT DOESN'T GET RID OF THE MASHING all it does is EXCLUDE LESS DEXTROUS PLAYERS FROM MASHING IT.... it honestly doesn't matter if the reversal comes out sometimes and fails at other times.... because then the game is so random that MIND GAMES CAN'T EXIST IF YOU CAN'T READ THE MIND OF SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T EVEN KNOW IF THEY'RE OWN REVERSAL IS GOING TO WORK. What part of that very very simple concept are you not grasping.... are you just ignoring basic common sense on purpose ?

History has shown how a Street Fighter style game with less than the 6 buttons doesn't really work as well, just look at how nobody looks fondly on CvS1. Whenever they do this, what seems to lose out the most are the medium normals, arguably the most important set of normals in Street Fighter. These are core footsie normals such as Ryu and Chun Li's low forward, Rose' low strong, Cammy's standing forward, etc.

Yet you cant just add these back in and take other normals out. In the best Street Fighter (and Street Fighter based games) just about every normal has a purpose in the neutral game and you are forced to learn how to use almost all of them (certainly more than you could map into just 2, 3 or even 4 buttons).

History has also shown that if you let people cancel into Supers and Special then what the hell do they need the unsafe moves for ? They can jab they're way to heavy damage at a much lower risk.... the buttons and very features you complained about aren't being used anyway, the unsafe normals that were suppose to be used in combos were being neglected. Again.... thats because of shitty design... not execution.

Old Sagat was never banned. The "soft ban" applied only to a select few arcades in Japan, yet major tournaments still allowed him.

And it doesn't matter anyway, ST's meta is good enough and the match ups interesting enough that even O. Sagat doesn't just dominate and he has his own set of counter picks (just like everyone else in the cast).

Great Job Side Stepping the issue.... This part is about Balance remember ? Not about a single a character. Did you just skip over everything else I just said....

Remix was meh. Sirlin's had on for yomi meant that moves were tuned way too much for yomi in favor of pure positional advantage.

Yeah and ?
Yomi is the very reason I play Fighting Games, I have no desire to engage in fighting for positional advantage if leads to guarantees instead of more Mind Games. What you essentially just did there was say "Chess is wrong because it involves too much thinking ahead".... You can't argue against the very purpose the game was made for.... the very thing that keeps new players interested after the spectacle of cool looking moves wears ofd.... the very thing we're told High Level Players train so hard to nullify the execution aspect so they can get to the actual meat of the game... which is Yomi. Again if positional advantage and lobsided matchups and executing hard moves is the reason why you play fighting games then I won't argue against what you just said..... all you have to do is just say so and I'l be on my merry way. You can do your thing and I can do mine since we're not even arguing the samething.

Then you might as well just quite fighting games because execution will always be part of the genre, no matter how easy you make things.

I'l quit when execution is the BIGGEST part of fighting games..... like it was back in the old days. As long as execution is a small part then its not a problem and the smaller that role plays the better... perhaps one day even completely paralysed or limbless people can take part in the exact same fighting game strategies abled people can.... thats the dream. To some extent thats Sirlin's Dream since he was never a good executioner either... its why he Made Yomi and Remix.

LoL the reason many people play games is because the actual physical activity of fighting isn't for them in the first place so they access the part that matter through gameplay. Sliding in that physical aspect is making the genre worse... not better. If people want the physical execution then they would just do the obvious thing and learn Judo ir whatever and start competing.

Except players don't have control over this. Execution is basically Striker A and Striker B taking the same shot, but one of them getting it off because they practiced more.

And player's have no control over the execution barrier.... the sprinklers are the execution barrier.

"Execution is basically Striker A and Striker B taking the same shot, but one of them getting it off because they practiced more."
Which is fine for a sport since execution is suppose to be part of a sport... what you just said is exactly the problem Star Craft had with Zerg Rushing.... when you let execution slip into a strategic activity then it becomes less strategic and more about APM's..... again if execution is the reason you play fighting games then seeing who can do whatever the fastest is fine. You won't see me trying to tell you otherwise.... the only reason I'm even still in here is because you keep saying its strategic and people play for the mind games.... in case you haven't noticed.... those very things hurt the the mind games. Its not even subtle.... its obvious thats what they do and yet you keep trying to point out arbitrary execution barriers that alienate players is some how making it deeper.... sigh... and again...before you pull out the "I never said make them arbitrary" card I'd like to remind that I asked what that purpose is and you said it was to increase the chances of failure.... that is arbitrary. Yes I copied and pasted that... just incase you were wondering.

That's a problem with the IV's overall design and issues than it is with Street Fighter.

First up, none of the combos in challenge mode are meant to be practical. The stuff there was mostly figured out to be impractical BS within a week of the community getting the game.

SFIV lights being strong was a result of some of the inherrent problems with that version of the game's system. From Focus Attacks neutralizing strong mid and long range pokes, to the most important one, the plinking glitch that allowed for supposed impractical 1 frame link combos to be done consistently.

The thing is Street Fighter has had extended combos from lights before, these were just impractical combos that you'd only see used in some fancy combo video that was never meant to practical use.

So to summarise.... It was an issue with the game's mechanics. Not its inputs..... now lets get down to Persona 4 Arena and see just how deep your hypocrisy and double standards go.... tell me whats wrong with the Reversal's again....

See, the problem here is that you're dividing everything into 2 extremes, when that definitely isn't the case. Especially when we have games that don't use execution for balance but still use the other aspects of special move inputs to provide for a varied moveset.

Seriously... go ahead and bring up P4's Reversals again... I wana see exactly how your mind works....

Knockdown only becomes advantageous when you get initiative from it, either from positional advantage, or by limiting your opponents options out of it. A good part of why people liked oki and stuff like Force Techs, is because of this. Without this, the knockdowns risk becoming situations where the attacker just stops and waits to react to the knocked down opponent, which robs them of the initiative.

You're confusing having an advantage with guaranteeing more stuff..... when you knock some one down you have the advantage, you can already do more things than they can and some how thats not good enough for you.... you're not entitled to get any more than that.. plain and simple. If you want knock downs that leave the opponent defensless then keep playing Street Fighter.... DoA's Oki serves an entirely different purpose... its about mind games not using execution to by pass strategies.

This game was made for you. Your problem is you have some weird aversion to admitting this is what you like most about Fighting Games.... perhaps you're worried people might judge you.... well I will... but the oppinion of a scrub shouldn't matter.... as long as your fellow Executionists agree with then you have nothing to worry about. @DestructionBomb may be self righteous and self entitled and just plain selfish debator but atleast he's not blind it ashamed about it... and I'm not ashamed about my skills or lack thereof... why is it so hard for you ?

This is the exact same criticism that has been leveled at the P4A series ever since the beginning. And you can't just weaken the reversals either, because what makes being able to mash reversals a bad idea is what makes reversals work as reversals in the first place.

And what makes the Reversals a bad idea even in high level play with perfect execution players ? How can you make a Reversal a bad idea for someone like Daigo ? This is your momentum of truth.

 

[DestructionBomb]

d3v just continue with your post, It's a lost cause by a huge margin on this one. Ironic that I am deemed selfish when there are individuals here trying to change the game by reducing execution barrier and even remove guaranteed damage. Yup...totally selfish here.

Regardless Lulu, you will come to embrace that since they won't change it. Not to mention that Lulu takes a century to absorb comprehension. This is what I generally feel about execution: I am neutral with high execution or easy execution - This does not mean that I like nor dislike super hard execution characters, but I can understand as to why there are moderate-high execution barriers to certain characters and game learning curve in general. Why should this be a concern from you? No idea and it's beginning to kill brain cells faster than weed.

 

[Lulu]

d3v just continue with your post, It's a lost cause by a huge margin on this one. Ironic that I am deemed selfish when there are individuals here trying to change the game by reducing execution barrier and even remove guaranteed damage. Yup...totally selfish here.

Regardless Lulu, you will come to embrace that since they won't change it. Not to mention that Lulu takes a century to absorb comprehension. This is what I generally feel about execution: I am neutral with high execution or easy execution - This does not mean that I like nor dislike super hard execution characters, but I can understand as to why there are moderate-high execution barriers to certain characters and game learning curve in general. Why should this be a concern from you? No idea and it's beginning to kill brain cells faster than weed.

Lower Execution = More people can play.... not just me.
Higher Execution = less people can play.... doesn't affect you so you don't care....
Nice try trying to paint me as the selfish one.

Yes you can understand what the execution barrier is for..... a moot point if you don't explain it.... perhaps you feel superior being the only who understands something....

 

[Lulu]

@d3v & @DestructionBomb
I'm actually having trouble looking for people's oppinion and critism of HD Remix and Persona 4 Arena..... well other than Chen's First Attack video which is too long....

Could you point me in the right direction.... preferably to Featured Editorials and Blogs and not to other Forums..... unless they're really good.

 

[Juihau]

Lower Execution = More people can play.... not just me.
Higher Execution = less people can play.... doesn't affect you so you don't care....
Nice try trying to paint me as the selfish one.

Yes you can understand what the execution barrier is for..... a moot point if you don't explain it.... perhaps you feel superior being the only who understands something....

Mm, that's starting to get into a completely different discussion that amounts to "anybody should be able to play any game." Sure, in a perfect world, that'd be true, but it just...can't work like that. The more options you want to give a player, the more complex a game gets, and in a game where you want as many options as possible to be readily available, the more dexterity and awareness is required on the part of the player. Now, I'm not gonna try and defend the logic of 360 inputs giving the possibility of screwing up and jumping, especially when there's precedent for a mechanic existing specifically to prevent that (hello, Skullgirls), and things like double/triple 360s are just, well, arbitrary. That said, though, there is some benefit to giving cool looking moves more difficult inputs. It just feels good when you can do them, and gives you that sense of "Hell yeah, I can do this." In that sense, I like to refer to Hayate's Raijin as "the most damaging taunt in the game," because being able to perform it on the fly is a lot like being able to taunt in a serious match and get away with it.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on the matter, though sorry if they're a bit of a jumbled mess.

 

[Lulu]

Mm, that's starting to get into a completely different discussion that amounts to "anybody should be able to play any game." Sure, in a perfect world, that'd be true, but it just...can't work like that. The more options you want to give a player, the more complex a game gets, and in a game where you want as many options as possible to be readily available, the more dexterity and awareness is required on the part of the player. Now, I'm not gonna try and defend the logic of 360 inputs giving the possibility of screwing up and jumping, especially when there's precedent for a mechanic existing specifically to prevent that (hello, Skullgirls), and things like double/triple 360s are just, well, arbitrary. That said, though, there is some benefit to giving cool looking moves more difficult inputs. It just feels good when you can do them, and gives you that sense of "Hell yeah, I can do this." In that sense, I like to refer to Hayate's Raijin as "the most damaging taunt in the game," because being able to perform it on the fly is a lot like being able to taunt in a serious match and get away with it.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on the matter, though sorry if they're a bit of a jumbled mess.

Messy as your thoughts are (their not messy at all ) atleast they're honest and fair. It's true..... making a game that everyone can play is impossible.... the point is its not wrong to do so.... it just can't be done. It might not make a difference but it is a very important distinction... just like you said... "in a perfect world".... well just because the world can never be perfect doesn't people should stop trying to improve it.

As for making inputs difficult to feel good..... is that why we play Fighting Games ? To do hard things that make us feel good ? Sounds like something that might work for a game like Dark Souls.... but in a Fighting Game is it worth Alienating the less Dextrous ?

It also feels like the developers had the Oppertunity to actually create something new and different that actually serves a purpose but they skipped that and just made a hard move..... however even though I can't do the Raijin it does seem to serve an entirely different purpose from his other throw.... as you know... DoA is big on the Environment, and from what I could tell... the Raijin slam the opponent into the Ground like Ryu's Izuna but his other throw hurls the opponent in a linear fashion across the stage, if you factor in the danger zones then you actually do have a reason to use one throw over the other..... but what good is that if the input for one is Arbitrarily Difficult ?

 

[Juihau]

Well, it kind of just comes down to player choice and a weird debate of rights vs. rewards. Cold or dismissive as this may sound, if there's something you can't do, sometimes it really is better to just not bother, and go for something else. Can't do the Raijin? There are other throws that ultimately serve a similar purpose, and are significantly easier to do, at the cost of dealing a bit less damage. It's not really alienating anyone so much as rewarding those who can pull it off. If it did the same damage as other throws, it'd basically be superfluous, and if it was something that anyone could easily do, it'd...still be pretty superfluous, since it'd just be another throw that does a bit more damage. The Raijin is a bit of an odd case because it literally exists to be hard to do. There's not much point to it otherwise, as far as I'm aware, so it's not really all that alienating in that sense...

 

[Lulu]

Well, it kind of just comes down to player choice and a weird debate of rights vs. rewards. Cold or dismissive as this may sound, if there's something you can't do, sometimes it really is better to just not bother, and go for something else. Can't do the Raijin? There are other throws that ultimately serve a similar purpose, and are significantly easier to do, at the cost of dealing a bit less damage. It's not really alienating anyone so much as rewarding those who can pull it off. If it did the same damage as other throws, it'd basically be superfluous, and if it was something that anyone could easily do, it'd...still be pretty superfluous, since it'd just be another throw that does a bit more damage. The Raijin is a bit of an odd case because it literally exists to be hard to do. There's not much point to it otherwise, as far as I'm aware, so it's not really all that alienating in that sense...

I haven't been able to Find another throw that does what Raijin Does. It is abit different.

Anyway the rights versus reward thing is an interesting topic..... my position has always been that if you bait out a hold then you have the right and reward to throw them.... although that's more of a rule of the system than a right of the game play.

And another thing.... the biniary nature of executing moves kinda warps the whole reward thing, do you get better rewards from being able to do the Raijin with perfect input ? Should it do 5 points less damage for every input you get wrong ?

The way it is now is either it works or it doesn't..... out of curiousity I was trying the Raijin again just now.... sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, I have no way of knowing what I'm doing wrong. The Raijin isn't a good example of rewarding practice since the input for it is highly impractical in the first place, almost like Street Fighter's 360s.

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

I'd like a totally new serie, a 3D fighter of course.

 

[Argentus]

Well, it kind of just comes down to player choice and a weird debate of rights vs. rewards. Cold or dismissive as this may sound, if there's something you can't do, sometimes it really is better to just not bother, and go for something else. Can't do the Raijin? There are other throws that ultimately serve a similar purpose, and are significantly easier to do, at the cost of dealing a bit less damage. It's not really alienating anyone so much as rewarding those who can pull it off. If it did the same damage as other throws, it'd basically be superfluous, and if it was something that anyone could easily do, it'd...still be pretty superfluous, since it'd just be another throw that does a bit more damage. The Raijin is a bit of an odd case because it literally exists to be hard to do. There's not much point to it otherwise, as far as I'm aware, so it's not really all that alienating in that sense...

This I can agree with. When I realize a certain move or tactic just isn't going to read online (which is the only way I get to play), then I abandon that move/tactic entirely and switch gears.

Like in 3rd Strike, I never pick Alexs Hyper Bomb, just because the double360 rotation makes the move so impractical/unreliable its not even worth picking. I go with Stun Gun Headbutt, which not only has a more practical input, but also has other uses (Maneuvering, anti-air, getting out of corners, leaping full screen, etc).
Same reason I never even bothered using Guiles Ultras in IV. Inputs were such a hassle they'd barely ever read, so I didn't bother.


@Lulu You make solid points, but trust me, you're wasting your breath here lol. It's like talking to a wall sometimes. Both sides of the argument have points, but neither side will ever see the others points.

 

[Lulu]

This I can agree with. When I realize a certain move or tactic just isn't going to read online (which is the only way I get to play), then I abandon that move/tactic entirely and switch gears.

Like in 3rd Strike, I never pick Alexs Hyper Bomb, just because the double360 rotation makes the move so impractical/unreliable its not even worth picking. I go with Stun Gun Headbutt, which not only has a more practical input, but also has other uses (Maneuvering, anti-air, getting out of corners, leaping full screen, etc).
Same reason I never even bothered using Guiles Ultras in IV. Inputs were such a hassle they'd barely ever read, so I didn't bother.


@Lulu You make solid points, but trust me, you're wasting your breath here lol. It's like talking to a wall sometimes. Both sides of the argument have points, but neither side will ever see the others points.

Some walls talk back and agree ? Or maybe that was my post surgery painkillers playing tricks on my mind.

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

execution barriers make sense in theory "hey lets make this absurdly powerful move super fucking difficult it can be spammed" you'd think that would help but in the end you're stilling seeing players who can perform Akira's 1-frame knee 5 times in lag. it doesn't stop them from abusing it in the least, it just makes it harder to learn. the result is less people playing that character and less people playing them competently.

worst case scenario is you wind up in a situation where you cant play a character because all their best tools are locked behind an arbitrary execution wall. when you do get to the point where you can perform it regularly there is great sense of relief, ya know the same type you would get after finishing that homework assignment. its utter bullshit because at no point should i be comparing games to homework, but for those certain characters it is and its about as much fun as well. fighting games in general require a lot of work, but when you're talking about combo building, match up data, etc.. you are actively doing something you enjoy to get to the end result which you dont even know yet. when practicing execution you arent playing the game you're hitting the same buttons over and over and over, and there is no discovery taking place since you know what you're looking for you just can get to it.

 

[Argentus]

Some walls talk back and agree ? Or maybe that was my post surgery painkillers playing tricks on my mind.

more just saying "don't waste your breath" while also trying to be nice by saying "they have a point too, its just differing perspectives and priorities"

execution barriers make sense in theory "hey lets make this absurdly powerful move super fucking difficult it can be spammed" you'd think that would help but in the end you're stilling seeing players who can perform Akira's 1-frame knee 5 times in lag. it doesn't stop them from abusing it in the least, it just makes it harder to learn. the result is less people playing that character and less people playing them competently.

worst case scenario is you wind up in a situation where you cant play a character because all their best tools are locked behind an arbitrary execution wall. when you do get to the point where you can perform it regularly there is great sense of relief, ya know the same type you would get after finishing that homework assignment. its utter bullshit because at no point should i be comparing games to homework, but for those certain characters it is and its about as much fun as well. fighting games in general require a lot of work, but when you're talking about combo building, match up data, etc.. you are actively doing something you enjoy to get to the end result which you dont even know yet. when practicing execution you arent playing the game you're hitting the same buttons over and over and over, and there is no discovery taking place since you know what you're looking for you just can get to it.

Preeeetty much.

 

[Lulu]

execution barriers make sense in theory "hey lets make this absurdly powerful move super fucking difficult it can be spammed" you'd think that would help but in the end you're stilling seeing players who can perform Akira's 1-frame knee 5 times in lag. it doesn't stop them from abusing it in the least, it just makes it harder to learn. the result is less people playing that character and less people playing them competently.

worst case scenario is you wind up in a situation where you cant play a character because all their best tools are locked behind an arbitrary execution wall. when you do get to the point where you can perform it regularly there is great sense of relief, ya know the same type you would get after finishing that homework assignment. its utter bullshit because at no point should i be comparing games to homework, but for those certain characters it is and its about as much fun as well. fighting games in general require a lot of work, but when you're talking about combo building, match up data, etc.. you are actively doing something you enjoy to get to the end result which you dont even know yet. when practicing execution you arent playing the game you're hitting the same buttons over and over and over, and there is no discovery taking place since you know what you're looking for you just can get to it.

And now you know how upset I was when I bought DoA5U and got Stymied in Hayate's Command Training.... and Jacky's too.

Thats the last thing somebody who decided to take a chance on DoA wants to experience.... its not uncommon to mumble to yourself "should have bought Tekken" or whatever when shit gets hard.