Bushido
Well-Known Member
Hitomi has better defensive options, they don't shut down Kokoro completely, but Kokoro is hindered.
The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
True. That said Kokoro can generally shut down Hitomi's better defense (here synonym with punchparry?) with a superior lowstrike game or mix in throws which is a natural part of her loops. Holistic viewed Kokoro has a little better close ranged game, while Hitomi excels somewhat at mid range, though they both have ways to deal with their disadvantages. I'd say they both got pros and cons that are effective against each other, putting them somewhat fairly head to head in the race.
xhuntressx
Member
Er, what happened to v. Tina? o.o
Bushido
Well-Known Member
Saber
Well-Known Member
It's 7-3 no matter how you look at it.
As much as you would want your favorite (or main) character to have little to no unfavorable matchups, they're there. We all know Kokoro's main weakness is her extreme linearity, and this has been said over and over again, but Christie's JAK stance ducks under it and evades every move Kokoro tries to do, except low throws. Possibility of landing 1T is very low unless you can guess CORRECTLY Christie is going to use JAK. It's an extremely one-sided matchup, and 1T is the only reason this isn't an 8-2 matchup, since her stuns are superior to Christie's. 7-3 is the best Kokoro's going to get, and that's only IF she lands 1T.
While it's a good to make a list of matchups, you're gonna have to give at least a brief explanation for each matchup.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Mr. Wah Match up numbers for Helena:
Edit: Wah informed me there are no .5 match ups so I will add an additional rounded up numerical figure for those that have .5's in brackets.
Vs Akira 5 - 5
Vs Brad Wong 4.5 - 5.5 / (5 - 5)
Vs Hayabusa 4.5 - 5.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Rig 4.5 - 5.5 (4 - 6)
Vs Alpha 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Christie 5 - 5
Vs Hayate 5 - 5
Vs Kasumi 4.5 - 5.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Mila 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Sarah 3.5 - 6.5 (3 - 7)
Vs Ayane 4 - 6
Vs Kokoro 5 - 5
Vs Tina 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Bass 6 - 4
Vs Eliot 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Hitomi 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Lisa 4 - 6
Vs Pai 4 - 6
Vs Zack 5 - 5
Vs Bayman 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Gen Fu 4 - 6
Vs Jann Lee 4 - 6
Vs Lei Fang 4 - 6
Edit: Rather than spend forever writing each match up perhaps people would prefer to challenge my assertions and I will respond.
Edit: Wah informed me there are no .5 match ups so I will add an additional rounded up numerical figure for those that have .5's in brackets.
Vs Akira 5 - 5
Vs Brad Wong 4.5 - 5.5 / (5 - 5)
Vs Hayabusa 4.5 - 5.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Rig 4.5 - 5.5 (4 - 6)
Vs Alpha 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Christie 5 - 5
Vs Hayate 5 - 5
Vs Kasumi 4.5 - 5.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Mila 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Sarah 3.5 - 6.5 (3 - 7)
Vs Ayane 4 - 6
Vs Kokoro 5 - 5
Vs Tina 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Bass 6 - 4
Vs Eliot 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Hitomi 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Lisa 4 - 6
Vs Pai 4 - 6
Vs Zack 5 - 5
Vs Bayman 5.5 - 4.5 (5 - 5)
Vs Gen Fu 4 - 6
Vs Jann Lee 4 - 6
Vs Lei Fang 4 - 6
Edit: Rather than spend forever writing each match up perhaps people would prefer to challenge my assertions and I will respond.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Glad I didn't have to go into lone warrior mode to explain this again... Lol.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Thinking about it won't a lot of this discussion become irrelevant if TN is overhauling the game and it's characters so drastically?
Well, this is updated from time to time. That said I don't think the core game mechanics will change that much, or has I missed some information on the subject?
Yes, but it doesn't hurt to discuss these things in preparation for 5U. That is, if this gets finalized or near finalized we'll have topic points for the 5U tier list and allows us to start off with the 5 tier list as a base.
Overall I'm thinking this is practically finalized. Also, there are no .5 distinctions in this matchup chart.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
If they are adding this "bind state" thing for free juggles, the launch that has the opponent spinning, more sit down stuns and the possible nerf or removal of force tech's then the game will change a lot. If Helena loses her force tech's she will be an unrecognisable character when the game releases.
No .5's? That's a pain in the ass, allow me to revise for a second and edit my post.
I'll give my final overview of Ayane's match up chart later (granted I still lack some knowledge on a tiny select few due to lack of MU experience). If any explanation is needed after reviewing the chart, I will give my explanation(s).
EDIT: Still re-analyzing some things.
EDIT: Still re-analyzing some things.
Kasumi:
vs Bass 7-3
vs Bayman 5-5
vs Rig 6-4
vs Hayate 6-4
vs Ryu 5-5
vs Ayane 5-5 or 4-6
vs Kokoro 5-5
vs Helena 5-5
vs Lei Fang 5-5
vs Zack 6-4
vs Akira 5-5
vs Christie 5-5
vs Brad Wong 6-4
vs Alpha 5-5
vs Lisa 6-4
vs Jann Lee 6-4
vs Sarah 5-5
vs Pai 5-5
vs Gen Fu 5-5
vs Tina 6-4
vs Eliot 6-4
vs Mila 5-5
vs Hitomi 5-5
vs Kasumi 5-5
Spoilers vs Ayane: Haven't been playing much as of late. I've started back on PS3. But Ayane is the most annoying match-up I could find 64H messes up her pressure game in terms of mids along with the vortex she has after it. Kasumi also have the vortex, but off the 236T, 1T, 46H is when the vortex is effective. Ayane's hold makes it that much harder to pressure her with mids, making her change up her game that much more against her. Edit: I take the fact that Ayane has to guess 64H in order to get it along with Kasumi's other tools & ways to pressure around the hold & tools like 4H+K, H+K, & her kicks on starter to keep it as a 5-5, but the hold is something to fear. I look at it that way instead.
I had mixed feelings on Lei Fang, Akira & Sarah but figured it out. While Akira & Lei Fang have very sick parries to shut down her game & safer, it doesn't change the fact she's still a character that can make decisive moves in order to win the match. Not to mention she has parries of her own to her disposal that shuts down their jabs.
Spoiler vs Ryu: Kasumi has the quick attacks with the poke & punches but Busa has the holds & the izunas & the space. Master agrees with the number.
Edit: Bushido Kasumi vs Kokoro is an even match. Off the start Kasumi gets her with the speed game, but once Kokoro spaces her, it's fairly harder for her to get in.
vs Bass 7-3
vs Bayman 5-5
vs Rig 6-4
vs Hayate 6-4
vs Ryu 5-5
vs Ayane 5-5 or 4-6
vs Kokoro 5-5
vs Helena 5-5
vs Lei Fang 5-5
vs Zack 6-4
vs Akira 5-5
vs Christie 5-5
vs Brad Wong 6-4
vs Alpha 5-5
vs Lisa 6-4
vs Jann Lee 6-4
vs Sarah 5-5
vs Pai 5-5
vs Gen Fu 5-5
vs Tina 6-4
vs Eliot 6-4
vs Mila 5-5
vs Hitomi 5-5
vs Kasumi 5-5
Spoilers vs Ayane: Haven't been playing much as of late. I've started back on PS3. But Ayane is the most annoying match-up I could find 64H messes up her pressure game in terms of mids along with the vortex she has after it. Kasumi also have the vortex, but off the 236T, 1T, 46H is when the vortex is effective. Ayane's hold makes it that much harder to pressure her with mids, making her change up her game that much more against her. Edit: I take the fact that Ayane has to guess 64H in order to get it along with Kasumi's other tools & ways to pressure around the hold & tools like 4H+K, H+K, & her kicks on starter to keep it as a 5-5, but the hold is something to fear. I look at it that way instead.
I had mixed feelings on Lei Fang, Akira & Sarah but figured it out. While Akira & Lei Fang have very sick parries to shut down her game & safer, it doesn't change the fact she's still a character that can make decisive moves in order to win the match. Not to mention she has parries of her own to her disposal that shuts down their jabs.
Spoiler vs Ryu: Kasumi has the quick attacks with the poke & punches but Busa has the holds & the izunas & the space. Master agrees with the number.
Edit: Bushido Kasumi vs Kokoro is an even match. Off the start Kasumi gets her with the speed game, but once Kokoro spaces her, it's fairly harder for her to get in.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Tina, Bass, Eliot, Bayman, maybe Hitomi.
Helena doesn't really STOMP on any character, her match ups are just decent without any real horror shows with the exception of Jann, Sarah, Fu and Fang.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
She doesn't have a bad one after knockdown. Her neteral game there are major holes, but of she scores the knockdown it's completely in her favor regardless of character.