Helena in DOA5U

[Omegan Eckhart]

It's impossible to be at negative if you hit them with those transitions. Since you can't attack out of stun.

It depends on how many frames it takes her to get into BT, I don't have the game in front of me right now but I thought currently she was at something lousy like +3 when those string were free cancelled on CH.

I doubt she will be at negative but hopefully she gets more than what she gets when those strings are free cancelled.

 

[ninjaguy446]

Good news everyone. Helena's new sitdown stun (214P+K) is +24 on hit. 3PPP is currently +23 on hit, so I tested stuff out on that and just added one frame. These are for Stagger Escape:
Off: +24
Slow: +21
Fast: +19
Fastest: +16
It is also -10 on block.
Hypothetically, you should be able to land BKO 6P+K (i20) if they don't or slow stagger escape. BKO P+K (i19) if they don't or slow stagger escape. BKO 6K (i16) if they don't, slow, or fast SE.

That's all hypothetical. I just added a frame of advantage but it all should be correct.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Good news everyone. Helena's new sitdown stun (214P+K) is +24 on hit. 3PPP is currently +23 on hit, so I tested stuff out on that and just added one frame. These are for Stagger Escape:
Off: +24
Slow: +21
Fast: +19
Fastest: +16
It is also -10 on block.
Hypothetically, you should be able to land BKO 6P+K (i20) if they don't or slow stagger escape. BKO P+K (i19) if they don't or slow stagger escape. BKO 6K (i16) if they don't, slow, or fast SE.

That's all hypothetical. I just added a frame of advantage but it all should be correct.

If it is +16 on fastest that means 6K cannot be guaranteed because 6K being i15 is actually i16 after adding 1 frame for activation, so no guaranteed launch for Helena. Her 3PPP is +23 now so her SDS's are apparently still only +15 at best.

So her new sit down stun only guarantees 6P... wonderful.

 

[DR2K]

If it is +16 on fastest that means 6K cannot be guaranteed because 6K being i15 is actually i16 after adding 1 frame for activation, so no guaranteed launch for Helena. Her 3PPP is +23 now so her SDS's are apparently still only +15 at best.

So her new sit down stun only guarantees 6P... wonderful.

Yeah, but you should have to stagger escape perfectly, then guess right.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Yeah, but you should have to stagger escape perfectly, then guess right.

Yeah but I was hoping nerfing the shit out of her FT game would open her up for "real" guaranteed follow ups instead she got more "they gotta fuck up when SE'ing" SDS's.

It's pretty disappointing.

 

[DR2K]

Yeah but I was hoping nerfing the shit out of her FT game would open her up for "real" guaranteed follow ups instead she got more "they gotta fuck up when SE'ing" SDS's.

It's pretty disappointing.

This is about as real as it gets for most characters. Perfect slow escapes are difficult to do on their own as it is.

 

[ninjaguy446]

Yeah but I was hoping nerfing the shit out of her FT game would open her up for "real" guaranteed follow ups instead she got more "they gotta fuck up when SE'ing" SDS's.

It's pretty disappointing.

But either way at least it's something. Barely anyone will ever fastest SE, so we can usually get BKO 6K for free.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

This is about as real as it gets for most characters. Perfect slow escapes are difficult to do on their own as it is.

I figured with 5U they were planning on giving all characters real SDS's. It's so stupid to include such as major mechanic and only give it to a few characters.

The only hope I have now is that her bound state game makes up for her shit SDS's. If P(P) always bounds on CH then she will have at least one real dangerous guaranteed set up seeing 66KPP is guaranteed from bound.

But either way at least it's something. Barely anyone will ever fastest SE, so we can usually get BKO 6K for free.

I just don't understand why TN gives some characters guaranteed launchers and CB's and then gives Helena these kind of SDS's. I don't want to rely on bad SE'ing for damage when other characters get so much more for free. It's just dumb, even if it difficult to get out of.

 

[ninjaguy446]

I just don't understand why TN gives some characters guaranteed launchers and CB's and then gives Helena these kind of SDS's. I don't want to rely on bad SE'ing for damage when other characters get so much more for free. It's just dumb, even if it difficult to get out of.

Maybe there's something else in her gameplay that makes up for it... hopefully. I'm pretty sure it's her best SDS so far. If we request enough maybe we could get it up to +27 to guarantee her CB. And if not then +25 would suffice so BKO 6K would be guaranteed.

 

[DR2K]

Maybe there's something else in her gameplay that makes up for it... hopefully. I'm pretty sure it's her best SDS so far. If we request enough maybe we could get it up to +27 to guarantee her CB. And if not then +25 would suffice so BKO 6K would be guaranteed.

She's a very difficult character to read. Now that she can go directly into BKO from SDS is going to be even harder.

 

[ninjaguy446]

She's a very difficult character to read. Now that she can go directly into BKO from SDS is going to be even harder.

Yep. Could also just use the SDS to further extend the stun with 6P and let it be a guessing game between CB and 9K.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

She's a very difficult character to read. Now that she can go directly into BKO from SDS is going to be even harder.

I can put you into stun and go high, mid, low or i12 grab with any character. It's not like guessing wrong against her screws the opponent more than any other character.

Hell when Hitomi uses a SDS she can go for a high launcher, or a mid launcher or a NH stun low or her 33F+P. It doesn't make her SDS's any good or have anything to do with her being particularly difficult to read. You just have to guess, it's the same with any character.

 

[DR2K]

I can put you into stun and go high, mid, low or i12 grab with any character. It's not like guessing wrong against her screws the opponent more than any other character.

Helena has considerly better options in bko.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Helena has considerly better options in bko.

Hell when Hitomi uses a SDS she can go for a high launcher, or a mid launcher or a NH stun low or her 33F+P. It doesn't make her SDS's any good or have anything to do with her being particularly difficult to read. You just have to guess, it's the same with any character.

When she puts you in stun it's either high launcher, mid launcher or a grab. When any character puts you in stun it's the same 1 in 5 guess. It's not like the opponent is guessing exactly which attack you are going to use it just High, Mid P, Mid K, Low or F+P.

No matter how many options she has it's just a 1 in 5 guess the same with any character. Her loop at least made you afraid to get launched, now I'm not sure what she's got. My money is still on her bound state attacks being her saving grace.

 

[DR2K]

When she puts you in stun it's either high launcher, mid launcher or a grab. When any character puts you in stun it's the same 1 in 5 guess. It's not like the opponent is guessing exactly which attack you are going to use it just high, mid p, mid k, low or throw.

But with this specific SDS it's either take a guaranteed attack, perfect frame guard to avoid a launcher, or get thrown for obvious attempt to shake the stun.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

But with this specific SDS it's either take a guaranteed attack, perfect frame guard to avoid a launcher, or get thrown for obvious attempt to shake the stun.

How is that specific to this SDS? She can do that with all her other SDS's.

 

[DR2K]

How is that specific to this SDS? She can do that with all her other SDS's.

She's in a better position with more advantage to work with.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

She's in a better position with more advantage to work with.

Her other SDS's are +15 and her new one is +16 lol

 

[HaJiN]

So her new sit down stun only guarantees 6P... wonderful.

I don't think that's true. 4P should also work. It activates in 14 frames, and is a pretty nice stun. She has an amazing mix up game from backfacing, so that also helps.

 

[DR2K]

Her other SDS's are +15 and her new one is +16 lol

But she's in BKO naturally with more frame advantage than going into bokuho. From any other SDS.