PhoenixVFIRE
Well-Known Member
Ok, so you know how people have notice that the ground game isn't as effective in the Alpha demo? Maybe character individuality will fall here too? I was just thinking. Helena /headache
Dead or Alive 5 Alpha Demo System and Character Discussions
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
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DrDogg
Well-Known Member
The ground game doesn't work because of invincibility frames on wake-up. Not sure how that can be character specific.
I think he means that characters who really benefited from it like Helena in DOA4 have one less unique tool to take advantage of now.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Strictly from a competitive standpoint, could someone please tell me how this match is a significant change from a standard high-level match in DOA2U or DOA4?
From my perspective I see every single problem I had with DOA4 glaringly clear in this match. As of right now, I assume this is the best "competitive" match we're going to get, so I ask those of you who believe the demo is worthy of competitive play to explain what makes this so much different than DOA4/2U.
From my perspective I see every single problem I had with DOA4 glaringly clear in this match. As of right now, I assume this is the best "competitive" match we're going to get, so I ask those of you who believe the demo is worthy of competitive play to explain what makes this so much different than DOA4/2U.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
This was suppose to be a high level match? There isn't a significant difference, I too see the same problems from DOA4 in it. Neither of them worked anything guaranteed, well MASTER did with the stun from Busa's 
but no one controlled the environment to get that wall damage. It looks as if they were still playing DOA4, to a certain extent they were. Come E3 maybe the system has changed for the best and fights won't resemble or be like DOA4.
but no one controlled the environment to get that wall damage. It looks as if they were still playing DOA4, to a certain extent they were. Come E3 maybe the system has changed for the best and fights won't resemble or be like DOA4.
what the hell are you guys talking about ?
1) there was a slope in the stage for an extended air juggle.. and he acctually managed to reach critical threshold
2) he fricken powerblowed a wakeup low kick... which was an awesome and deadly punish
3) from this video you can see how powerblows can acctually connect a multitude of times in just 3 matches and yes although unsafe (despite all the nagging of it being slow) several strike whiff punishes and an occasion where it beat a stunned hold in its recovery frames
4) you can CLEARLY see the high punishability of holds with the new longer recovery time which is the reason why the
connected in the first place.5) and yes you got your guaranteed followup after
6) on several occations you see both players swaying away in circles from the walls because they know the risk of getting hit into the wall is much higher now, despite the stage being narrow (much clearer when they reach the lower part of the stage as it is signifficantly wider).. this doesnt mean stage interactivity doesnt work.. it just shows that yes these players know what the hell they're doing. on the other hand you saw them both fighting over the higher end of the slope.. how is this not stage showing how effective it is?
7) you got the fricken flying car TWICE IN 3 MATCHES!!
8) in all 3 matches you got to see both areas of the stage (3 cliff hangers)
9) the generator slam in the beginning was a garanteed setup but the the hayate player (matts ) screwed up the follow up.. not the games fault..
really im starting to feel people just post negative posts now just for the sake of being negative...
i honestly dont get it sometimes...
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
I don't wish to defend the demo extensively as we've been over it, and it's going to be a moot point soon as we find out the changes in the E3 demo... but - the differences are more for the feel of the game in terms of how punishable the counters are.
I also don't think there's a high intensity to these matches. Both players are good but they are playing casually.
The main things that are different are things we know about like wall hits giving guaranteed follow ups. I think there are the occasional nice uses of powerblow after putting the opponent in a stun mixup,and the is more advantageous to the attacker than in 4 because of increased hold recovery. Subtle, yes, but its there.
So yeah, apart from the big stuff you can see like the walls, danger zones, and other visual effects, it's a subtle competitive improvement that matters more to the players than spectators. Its kind of an unfair question without talking to the players and going through the actual match and breaking it down.
I also don't think there's a high intensity to these matches. Both players are good but they are playing casually.
The main things that are different are things we know about like wall hits giving guaranteed follow ups. I think there are the occasional nice uses of powerblow after putting the opponent in a stun mixup,and the is more advantageous to the attacker than in 4 because of increased hold recovery. Subtle, yes, but its there.
So yeah, apart from the big stuff you can see like the walls, danger zones, and other visual effects, it's a subtle competitive improvement that matters more to the players than spectators. Its kind of an unfair question without talking to the players and going through the actual match and breaking it down.
Chris Harris
Well-Known Member
Ok here's the problem with their few matches (did use a few good things though)
Manny found that Hayabusa's PB crushes (or he got the lucky and stuffed it) lows. He was really trying to work it and land that damage. He even used one of the more guaranteed attacks to land big damage.
Here's the problem though. . . .neither guy used anything new. Manny didn't even use Hayabusa's kick that gives advantage and covers distance. Just neither player really used the new system to their advantage. Manny did a few times here and there but he didn't really use the new stuff to give him a strong advantage.
The other guy was playing at like 20% which isn't his fault. He spent 90% of the time being a punching bag cause he
A) Didn't play the demo that much
B) No idea how to use Hayate
C) Didn't use Hayate's seriously OP sidestep attack (he did but sparingly). . .
D) Only attempted Hayate's better stun once
90% of that match could have never used a hold because it was all SE-able except for Manny's 46p (think that's the notation).
However that's not to say it can't improve just saying they didn't even use everything they could to show the difference to a competitive player. I doubt anyone will until I go to play PL
Manny found that Hayabusa's PB crushes (or he got the lucky and stuffed it) lows. He was really trying to work it and land that damage. He even used one of the more guaranteed attacks to land big damage.
Here's the problem though. . . .neither guy used anything new. Manny didn't even use Hayabusa's kick that gives advantage and covers distance. Just neither player really used the new system to their advantage. Manny did a few times here and there but he didn't really use the new stuff to give him a strong advantage.
The other guy was playing at like 20% which isn't his fault. He spent 90% of the time being a punching bag cause he
A) Didn't play the demo that much
B) No idea how to use Hayate
C) Didn't use Hayate's seriously OP sidestep attack (he did but sparingly). . .
D) Only attempted Hayate's better stun once
90% of that match could have never used a hold because it was all SE-able except for Manny's 46p (think that's the notation).
However that's not to say it can't improve just saying they didn't even use everything they could to show the difference to a competitive player. I doubt anyone will until I go to play PL
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Nothing different from what has been in previous DOA games.
I believe you were in that debate in that PB thread. So you should know when I stated when the PBs would be useful. This situation was a very good example of that.
How they were used is exactly how I knew from the start they would be used. These video proved that, Captain Obvious.
4) you can CLEARLY see the high punishability of holds with the new longer recovery time which is the reason why the
5) and yes you got your guaranteed followup after
Why are these points? I gave credit to this, I don't need you to repeat the shit.
The question at hand was, "Could someone please tell me how this match is a significant change from a standard high-level match in DOA2U or DOA4?" I answered correctly, there isn't.
Apparently one of them was not fully aware of what they hell was going or where they were at!!
Yeah, I like to believe you will see this a lot, it's not hard to activate a damn cliff hanger. Which takes away guaranteed damage that has ALWAYS been in the series, if I may add.
No shit, Sherlock.
No, you are taking comments negative, at least mine for that matter. You do not know me well enough to even say when I am being negative. A valid question was asked and I gave a truthful answer. I know the answer may hurt you because you love or at least like the dumb shit DOA4 offers. That match was nothing different from previous DOAs, besides the newly added stuff; cliff hangers and triggered danger zones.
I do believe that this was a casual match which is why I asked the question, "This was suppose to be a high level match?" Still does not change the fact that nothing was significantly different from the usual type of matches in DOA4. Again, to someone like yourself that may be hard for you to see.
This is not necessary for a casual match. Even in your neutral comment you see as well that the changes are "subtle". Which means that there is NO SIGNIFICANT CHANGE.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Fact is they were playing the demo incorrectly. Treating it like DoA4 and not utilizing the changes made in the demo, never really utilizing frame advantage or 2-n-1's, never really utilizing the side steps, master pulling off 3 PB's shows that the other guy doesn't know how to play Hayate (I'd be embarrassed if I got hit by even one PB.) I'll give the fact that the guy playing Hayate isn't a Hayate player though so it's hard to have a "high level match" with a character someone doesn't play. That's like asking me to pick Ryu over Hitomi. I can't for the life of me use Ryu even if I do know his tools. His play style doesn't work with me, not to mention you don't have the muscle memory when you pick a character you never play.
This isn't to say that the demo doesn't need improvements (it needs a lot more then what it has to be considered good) but it's different enough that playing it like DoA4 is playing it incorrectly.
This isn't to say that the demo doesn't need improvements (it needs a lot more then what it has to be considered good) but it's different enough that playing it like DoA4 is playing it incorrectly.
I feel that the Rikuto vs CyberEvil matches posted were much more competitive while still casual. Rikuto's actually been playing tournament level SCV so he's in more of that kind of mindset and you see him abuse Hayate's
on a downed CyberEvil as well as his , though he mentioned in his posts that he tried to not abuse it too much.Here's their first set but just the first few seconds show off a major flaw of the DOA games that's still present, everyone is afraid to attack.
The rest of the videos can be found here but they're much more competitive than the Master video posted earlier: http://www.freestepdodge.com/media/user/cyberevil.386/
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
I stated that I was looking for significant changes, strictly from a competitive standpoint. Danger zones, cliff hangers and all of that are not really looking at it from a competitive standpoint.
I actually believe that tournament standard will be to play with danger zones off. One of the things that really bothered me watching that video was how much the screen was shaking and how distracting the stage interactions were.
Even with proper changes made to the game (which I'm hopeful of), if the screen shake and danger zone "insanity" are not toned down or turned off (banned) for tournament play, I probably wouldn't travel for DOA5.
I know you can turn off danger zones, but then you lose the stage transition ability. I'm hoping there's some way to turn off the insanity, while still keeping the stage transition. I'd even be okay losing the cliff hanger because I'm not a fan of the needless guessing game it presents. It didn't work in MK vs DC, and I don't really see it working well in DOA5.
That was my issue with Rikuto's videos. I put a spotlight on Manny's video because he titles it as a competitive match, and because they're clearly ignoring the dangers of attacking and playing like it's DOA4 (which is the standout point for me). In my mind, if the Alpah demo were to become a tournament game with months spent playing it at high levels, you'd see it devolve into Rikuto's match of, "I don't want to attack because I'll be at a disadvantage".
hey man .. i just wanted to say sorry it came out as lashing out at you .. it wasnt meant directly at you ..
i just wanted to show that yes there were several elements where the new gameplay was utilized and that the stage did infact play a role...
the gameplay might still have elements retained from older doa's.. but those elements will not go away and the new features will take a while to become muscle memory ... like mr. wah stated there wasnt much use of sidesteps at least in the defensive sense apart from canceling powerblows .. so that territory hasnt been yet fully tapped ..
but on the other hand it is clear how the little changes had a big impact .. or atleast the potential for big impact...
(the generator exploding for a free followup .. the holds being alot easier to punish and still extend stun .. on the flow terrain change from flat to slope making both players fight for higher ground instead of strive to avoid the wall .. ) those are things that make a big difference .. and i have a feeling there will be more stuff like that utilized as the games potential is tapped into
im aware that the matches were casual but.. i must have misread your comment or had it mixed up altogether ... (or just been dead sleepy) ..
sorry about that ..
been working non-stop for the past 2 days on the project so i can get it out before e3 ...
just so you guys know its being uploaded right now .. still 2 gb to go .. so its gonna take a little while longer but if everything goes well i'll have it up and running by tonight .. so keep on the lookout for it
just a thought out of nowhere about the (no dangerzones) option
i think this in a way makes it possible to play tag matches on regular stages ...
as you're all aware tag always had limited options when it came to stages so this might acctually be the work around to make tag possible in every stage ...
another way to look at it is to basicly turn the stages into VF stages more or less ... would be interesting if we ended up getting stages with a .. "RING OUT !" scream ... hmmmm
we'll just have to wait and see .. it sure is cool having the option to disable them though ...
(sure as hell saved me alot of trouble when recording my footage .. lol)
i think this in a way makes it possible to play tag matches on regular stages ...
as you're all aware tag always had limited options when it came to stages so this might acctually be the work around to make tag possible in every stage ...
another way to look at it is to basicly turn the stages into VF stages more or less ... would be interesting if we ended up getting stages with a .. "RING OUT !" scream ... hmmmm
we'll just have to wait and see .. it sure is cool having the option to disable them though ...
(sure as hell saved me alot of trouble when recording my footage .. lol)
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Why?
No offense, but that screen shake has to go for tournaments. I don't mean to go against the community, but if the screen shake stays the ways it is, and the only way to turn it off is by turning danger zones off, tournaments I run (post-release) will have danger zones off... and it's unlikely I'll attend any tournaments with danger zones on. The screen shake is just too much.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
And if the opponent refuses I'm at a disadvantage. No thanks.