Skilletor
Active Member
I don't. Because judging from your posts you wish to keep DoA pretty much as is. I want it to be a competitive fighter. Those two goals are at odds with one another.
3-Point Hold v. 4-Point Hold
- Thread starter MrMoon360
- Start date
I don't. Because judging from your posts you wish to keep DoA pretty much as is. I want it to be a competitive fighter. Those two goals are at odds with one another.
BlackOrochi
Member
Do you mind specifying "as it is"? Do you mean like the DOA5 Alpha demo?
Skilletor
Active Member
You said on the previous page, in response to almost 20 pages of arguments about holds and their merit, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I think the hold system is broken (if this game is to be a competitive fighter). You, apparently, do not.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Because it doesn't solve the problem. Hitomi had over 100 moves in DoA4 but it means nothing in a game that is 100% 50/50 situations. Sorry, most of us here do not want to play 100% mind games. I want some form of control over my opponent when I outplay him. Clearly you want doa4 with 3 point holds, thats fine(go play DoAD), but we want a game that doesn't suck and I look forward to what Rikuto and DrDogg have to share come E3.
BlackOrochi
Member
For what it's worth, allow me to clarify: I think the system was broken in the sense that Hold Damage was too high, Hold recovery was too fast, and Hold Active Frames were to long. All those issues seem to have been fixed, or in the process of being fixed by Team Ninja.
Now, on the other hand, I do not think that the 3pt Holds is part of the Hold system being broken. I actually think that a 3pt system make the game even more competitive, as odds are less generous.
But then again, we can agree to disagree, as it is a matter of perspective.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
So you don't believe only having a 12.5% chance of only getting 1/4 to 1/3rd of a lifebar is game breaking? I'm not asking about your solution to this problem exactly since there is one that is kind-of underway, but I'm kind of curious what drove you to believe this in the first place.
How can a player base any sort of reasonable offensive strategy around such poor odds and poor damage and be convinced he is playing a decent game with strategy and depth? Granted I'm talking mostly about open-space combos. Wall damage is close to where it needs to be right now.
Yes we've touched on increasing the strike damage, but even if you increase it reasonably there are still situations where it's going to effect other aspects of the game such as throw launchers. It would also turn high-damage situations like slope juggles into instant-death situations again (which might not be a bad thing) but take any juggle into an explosive dangerzone, even with a 25% increase, and you're looking at something close to a death combo as well.
These situations would happen a lot, friend, and not always through strategic planning. There are a TON of nasty things that can kill you littered about in this game as it is. Are you comfortable with that?
How can a player base any sort of reasonable offensive strategy around such poor odds and poor damage and be convinced he is playing a decent game with strategy and depth? Granted I'm talking mostly about open-space combos. Wall damage is close to where it needs to be right now.
Yes we've touched on increasing the strike damage, but even if you increase it reasonably there are still situations where it's going to effect other aspects of the game such as throw launchers. It would also turn high-damage situations like slope juggles into instant-death situations again (which might not be a bad thing) but take any juggle into an explosive dangerzone, even with a 25% increase, and you're looking at something close to a death combo as well.
These situations would happen a lot, friend, and not always through strategic planning. There are a TON of nasty things that can kill you littered about in this game as it is. Are you comfortable with that?
DriftSlave
Active Member
If you played vf then you would know why he facepalmed......because i just did. 
RuNNing Riot
Member
Nobody else thinks it's broken because of that either.
It's less generous odds to the ATTACKER. The defender is going to enjoy greater odds at just weaseling his way out of every situation the attacker will put him into. So now you have less reason to bother attacking in the first place.
PhoenixVFIRE
Well-Known Member
Think of it this way BlackOrochi...
You and your opponent engage in combat.
You are on the offense and he is defending.
He(THE DEFENDER) basically has a 50% chance to do major damage to you just by countering within the stun threshold.
You(THE ATTACKER) basically has a 12.5% chance to do the SAME amount of damage(give or take) within the stun threshold.
Now, which is broken and which is not worth trying from a serious competitive stand point?
You and your opponent engage in combat.
You are on the offense and he is defending.
He(THE DEFENDER) basically has a 50% chance to do major damage to you just by countering within the stun threshold.
You(THE ATTACKER) basically has a 12.5% chance to do the SAME amount of damage(give or take) within the stun threshold.
Now, which is broken and which is not worth trying from a serious competitive stand point?
BlackOrochi
Member
lol Rikuto, you know what? I really love & respect your insight because it is always rational and constructive! (for real, no sarcasm)
But am I crazy for believing that a 12.5% chance (in mathematical theory) does not brake the game? If the game were so broken by these odds, how was I able to have such a blast in DOA2-H and DOA3? I don't mind being Held by my opponent and pay the price if I took too much of a gamble by settling for a Mid-Hit or the wrong kind of launcher.
The problem with numbers (as true as they may be) is that they can easily affect your perceptions. If we took any statistical value too seriously, we'd lock ourselves in our homes and never see the light of day. People wouldn't go to Vegas and blow on dice. Entrepreneurs wouldn't believe in their small businesses because, statistically, a lot of them fail.
I might have strayed off topic, but what I'm trying to say is that placing a value on fun kind of kills it.
Because DOA3 is awesome.
Seriously though, it also has something to do with the game not relying so much on hit level mixup but on attack/throw/knockback mixup. The fact that there were setups to prevent the opponent from holding altogether nullified the reason for as many 4-point hold complaints as you saw with the DOA5 alpha demo.
Oh and please avoid double/triple-posting. Make a new post after someone has posted after you.
BlackOrochi
Member
Great point Phoenix! I think you guys are really gonna hate me after this lol Sorry
I feel like I've been fighting an army lol
I'll answer with a question: If Hold damage were significantly decreased, would it make a difference? Therefore, the defender would have 50% chance to do small damage, versus the attacker having a 12.5% chance to deal greater damage.
You're right. I'm holding on the a system I grew up on and love, or a crutch. But I've said this before, I can easily adapt to a 4pt Hold system. I'm just stating my impressions, and if DOA5 is 4pt, I'll be fine.
I'm just doing this because nothing is final, that's all.
And to be able to talk about it with connoisseurs is a real treat! Thx guys!
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Please do tell, because last I checked, each iteration of DoA had a different hold system.
DoA used a 2 point parry system.
DoA++ used a parry system and a 6 point hold
DoA2 arcade used 4 point system but it was double inputs.
DoA2 hardcore used both 3 and 4 point
DoA3 used a 3 point system
DoA2U used a 4 point system
DoA4 used a 4 point system
DoAD used a 3 point system
DoA5a used a 3 point system
(I feel as this has been mentioned before)
So please, do tell what you grew up with. Actually, no one here gives a damn what you grew up with. We want DoA to be taken seriously and 3 point holds is currently not a good thing.
PhoenixVFIRE
Well-Known Member
I think if the hold damage was significantly decreased, then it you would still probably be able to put out more damage on a regular basis than the attacker and you can't make the holds do no damage because then it's just slowing down the game overall. What you need in this game is more unholdable set-ups, holds need to have more recovery, smaller active window, and damage lessened from them. Holding needs to be an educated guess and it can't be a primary line of defense, it should one of your last resorts. I hope in this game people will rely more on sidestepping, slow escaping, positioning, blocking etc.
I will be the first to admit that I have had a bit of a countering problem that I've been trying to fix for the past few years. However, I also use all of the other defensive tools a lot more often now instead of countering and even in the horrible DOA4 it can save me from getting grabbed for heavy damage. Every once in a while I SC so fast out of the stun they end up grabbing me anyway because it brings me to neutral haha...
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
The main thing when playing those games is that a lot of players around mid to low level don't use the counter system to their advantage in every way possible. Some people will only pick one hold option the entire time, or most will fall into patterns of which options they select. Some will only try to counter once out of the entire stun threshold, and from lack of repetition (and thus a lack of accumulated probability) the odds go back to being more even instead of dropping down to 12.5%.
In short, the human error and bad, readable habits which are common in about 99% of the people who play the game, can make it substantially easier to play reasonably as an attacker. When you get to the top of the crop though, playstyles always change to accommodate for extreme randomness and the math starts rearing its head in a very ugly way. It's difficult for most players to understand these issues because they never felt the full brunt of them in tournament play. They exist though, and even if it only affects 1% of the playerbase, as long as anyone is aspiring to get there they will have to deal with it eventually.
And remember, simply realizing you can block already puts you past the bottom 50% so it isn't that much of a challenge to climb this mountain.
It is for these reasons that I actually enjoy DOA 4 right up until I play someone is either naturally random, or actually knows that they have to be (ie, all high level players).
I do enjoy manipulating lower/mid level players... as Sweet Revenge put it, it's like creating a painting... but that vision of the game only works up to a certain point before it breaks.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
You should technically be using a 4-point in the Alpha anyway. You should be maximizing damage by using the Expert Holds instead of the normal mid-hold.
Translation: I R good at guessing.
Landing a long combo is neither impressive or the result of an offensive genius. All it means is that you got lucky.
Isn't giving the defender a way out of almost every disadvantageous situation already "complexifying" defense? No other fighting game gives the defender as many options to reverse a mistake as DOA does.
No one said anything about completely removing holds from DOA. We just want them removed from stuns. A stun should be treated just like a launch... guaranteed damage for the offensive player.
I'd appreciate it if you don't speak for me as an individual. I'm not an asshole like you, and don't care to be.
Now speaking for myself... I do want DOA to be taken seriously, and if the majority of the people who actually play the game competitively believes 4-point holds can work (for some others, 6-point, but I digress), then so be it. But at the same time, I personally am not gonna vehemently shit on your past experiences with the DOA series that motivated you to gain a competitive interest, especially when you said many times to Raansu you were willing to adapt to the 4-point system regardless.
What matters is that you're generating a competitive interest in it now. That said, be willing to listen to those with a competitive experience for a change if you're willing to adapt to it.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
No one mentioned your name and no one is speaking for you...For the love of God if you have an opinion type it out like a fucking normal person.