Holds in Critical State -- just get rid of the damn thing already?

[grap3fruitman]

No holds + No stun system = Tekken

I'm glad you interpreted "let's revamp the stun system" as people wanting "no stun system." It says a lot about your reading comprehension.

How about a proposition? They've tried your method for how many games and it didn't work. How about we try something else this time around, yeah?

 

[Relius Starkiller]

Certain people need to stop playing DOA4 on normal too.

Two Izuna counters ends a match but because its the way Team Ninja designed it its the way many "top" players play but in the breath that comes after they've explained to you why you should be playing on normal they will tell you "Counters do too much damage." Really, thats why we play on normal? Because 2 or 3 counters can end a match and thats an issue? REALLY!?

 

[Relius Starkiller]

I'm glad you interpreted "let's revamp the stun system" as people wanting "no stun system." It says a lot about your reading comprehension.

How about a proposition? They've tried your method for how many games and it didn't work. How about we try something else this time around, yeah?

I think Rikuto was suggesting just what I was referencing in another thread Grape - stop tugging on Supermans cape.

Matter of fact, they DIDN"T try what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that you educate people as to what DOA is (That was never done properly), I'm suggesting you stop playing the game on normal life (when the lights were on the game brightest at EVO2k6 it was normal.).

I suggest you do a little critical thinking Grape - I'm an intelligent person, I don't need a straw man to get my points across.

Keep agreeing with everyone else without articulating your point of view dude, you'll be a movie star one day I promise.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I have to beg to differ. I was one of those people that went out and explained how to play doa properly. Problem, both we the educated-high level doa players and the fighting game community see a major flaw in the stun system.

We also played the game extensively on larger health levels. It only caused more imbalances than any fixes. We are not saying any of this blindly. I have been with the scene going on 11 years. We have done everything except get them to fix the games major issues. Now it is due time to get them fixed.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

I don't think you guys could have ever done enough education of the game to satisfy my point and the fact remains that even after you all had come to the conclusion that the game was trash the high level players still sold out their own beliefs and went for the CGS money so I wonder how much of it was perpetuating a half truth.

Again, I really like DOA4, does it have problems, yes but not to the degree that a lot of it was game breaking.

 

[Arnell Long]

Me personally, I love DOA just as everyone else, but honestly, whether the game comes out be "competitive" or just "entertainment" won't hurt the purchase of me buying DOA5.

I do want the game to be taken serious like the points Rikuto and others are making, but shit, it's been "many" years since we've had a new DOA game and I must admit, "although it may not be a positive to some" this game looks to be much different than other sequel titles out there, Tekken and Soul Calibur I'm looking at you, although I know both of those titles are much more competitive n has a much larger Community which I'm apart of also.

Anyway, I've been itching for a new DOA so instead of me pulling out the little hair I got, I'm going to be patient and see what Team Ninja does with the Community on the further development of DOA5.

 

[virtuaPAI]

There is no problem in you liking doa4 relius. Compared to other fighting games it is not good. when you have the top players of said game saying it is not good, than there is a 99% it is not good. When it is all said and done, this site is here to promote the growth of doa, not dwell in stagnation. Many of us agree that the game must get fixes that it need for it to evolve. This is not something new, but have been stated for the past 6 years now.

 

[Arnell Long]

I can't help but to agree with you VirtuaPai.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Side rebuttle:

Relius, setting the life bar to Normal was after a long discussion that proved the game stretches the tiers out further if playing on largest or smallest life. As you increase the life setting the lower damaging characters have to 'guess' more times than the higher damaging characters had to do with the same increase. It wasn't based off of one part of the triangle, it was based off of the game system as a whole. I think I still have the image of the calculations further proving the theory, which I will post up for you incase you missed it the first time so you can argue against it as well.

The last thing about this topic to say is that, frankly, the tournament organizers decide the rules - we only provide a suggestion based on our experiences. Any organizer can make up whatever rules they want, and any entrant is agreeing to those rules regardless. In further tradition, every competitive fighting game played has the life setting/handicap set to its default as well.

Edit:

 

[Jefffcore]

This is where I agree with JR. I don't agree with putting it on Normal Life just because it's more balance.

It makes every character need to guess more, and with holds the way they are I think that's the better option. You're already playing matches with more then one round, I don't see the difference. The better player in DOA is the player who reads his opponent better, the longer the match duration, the better that's shown.

We've already established that holds in critical break the game, why make them do more to your health? It's contradictory to me.

 

[Matt Ponton]

It makes every character need to guess more

But as shown, it only makes certain characters need to guess more. In the picture above it shows how 3 characters have to guess the same amount of times on largest as normal, and having one less guess necessary at smallest compared to another character (considered low tier) who has to guess (at least) one additional time on largest and has to guess the same amount of times on smallest as normal.

 

[Rikuto]

Why don't you guys just play Tekken?

Because I dislike tekken's movement, control scheme, hit detection, buffering system, netcode, environmental physics and the oversized roster in general.

What I would prefer to play over Tekken would be DOA 5, without holds in stun.

That would fulfill all the logical needs that a competent fighter demands, and it wouldn't carry all the baggage that I dislike about tekken.

 

[Jefffcore]

I'm concerned about holds though.

 

[UncleKitchener]

You guys won't mind me borrowing some of the good ideas here for my own thread, right?

Edited by Mr. Wah for: Misconduct

 

[Berzerk!]

I like the hold system and I like the stun system in DOA. I even like conceptually the ability to extend stuns, but I agree that the system needs to be tweaked.

Make critical stuns delay the ability to hold, great idea. Doesn't mean the stun or hold system should go away. If you think this is suggested, stop freaking out, noone suggested that.

Make holds more punishable with longer recovery and tighten up the active window a bit, so that it's a real decision and not a spammy-go-to.

As Mr Wah indicated on the last podcast, there really isn't much to do to DOA to strengthen the mechanics and make it more solid. What we know about DOA5 is positive, as holds appear to be weakened in strength (we don't know about active/recovery frames yet) and there is sidestep, potentially a very meaningful addition.

Getting a reward of not worrying about defensive hold for a few frames, for putting an opponent into a critical stun, is something a really solid set of strategies can be built upon. Whether they keep or ditch the extend-stun system or not. I'd think critical stun should only occur after an extended stun or a difficult to set up counter hit.

You can take a risk to "reset" the opponent and play for another stun before launching, or go for the launch right away on a lesser stun and risk the counter, or mixup into a throw. So long as the holds aren't super quick in recovery, the attacker will have advantage and the DOA strategic flavour is preserved in a more solid game.

Edit: Normal life is the right way to go and they should remove life settings from the options.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

Matter of fact, Sorwah or whoever can delete that last post (I won't because I don't throw gold in the garbage).

Uncle, tell me what you would do to make DOA5 a better game than DOA4.

 

[Arnell Long]

Matter of fact, Sorwah or whoever can delete that last post (I won't because I don't throw gold in the garbage).

Uncle, tell me what you would do to make DOA5 a better game than DOA4.

I'm not Uncle but um here's my taste...

Take away Counters while in a Critical State, make the neutral Counter Windows smaller, and adjust the Health to fit that formula...

 

[Relius Starkiller]

I'm not Uncle but um he's my taste...

Take away Counters while in a Critical State, make the neutral Counter Windows smaller, and adjust the Health to fit that formula...

This makes sense AND you didn't call me a shit head for liking the game (mostly) the way it is.

See Uncle, if you would just be civil and express your points without disrespecting me I might actually consider not pointing out that you have a mangina.

Edit: I'm sorry, I had to edit one of my pervious posts. I meant to say that Uncles opinion is worth LESS than a dirty asshole in a womens prison.

 

[Gill Hustle]

Or you could just get rid of holds in stun and have the game play like a competent fighter that people actually want to play. Your solution does not address the problem.

It doesn't matter if DOA 4, 3 or 2 era players think there is a way to make it perfectly playable. Nobody outside of the DOA bubble is willing to put up with that shit. It has to go or the game will die.

That's why I asked the question, how important are holds in stun to you? Are they important enough that you're willing to let the game be passed over for another six years?

Or do you actually want tournaments to happen for the game that have more than 20 people entering it? It can happen. You can have hundreds. But not with that shitty gimmick in play.

I'm late to class, but I like these notes.

As some of you know, I play a LOT OF different fighters, tried popping in DOA4 for general purposes and it felt like the computer had a constant threat of X-Factoring Everything.

Guessing on launchers and relying on throws gets real annoying . . .

 

[Relius Starkiller]

Side rebuttle:

Relius, setting the life bar to Normal was after a long discussion that proved the game stretches the tiers out further if playing on largest or smallest life. As you increase the life setting the lower damaging characters have to 'guess' more times than the higher damaging characters had to do with the same increase.

By your logic we should probably lower the damage threshold in SSF2 so that T-Hawk and Dee Jay have a better shot at winning.

Or maybe in MVC2, i mean Mag, Sen and Storm ruled the day because of their damage output but if we lowered the life settings then a team of Sonson, Dan and Iceman can actually be competitive.

The issue with DOA has always been that counters do too much damage, if the trade off for that is that the number of competitively viable characters shrinks from 24 down to 15 or 16 then whats the problem? You don't see the SC community looking at Ezio and saying "Hmm, how can we manipulate the game so that people can win with him?".
Its about the majority, now if say there were only three characters thaat had a legitmate shot at winning in DOA then maybe I'd conceed but their aren't.

So, again, the counters do too much damage but for the sake of Bass, Leon, Tengu, (Maybe) Lisa, Bayman and Brad Wong we should play the game on normal? With the average match lasting somewhere between 12 and 15 seconds? The critisim was that "Its too easy to win in DOA" and we want to keep it easy so that 5 or 6 characters have a shot at winning? So that we can say "Our game might have a busted mechanic but at least all the characters can win!"?

Really?