Holds in Critical State -- just get rid of the damn thing already?

[Raansu]

I still don't agree. I think there are better ways to handle it and 3.1 is proof of that.

 

[Rikuto]

3.1 is not proof of anything.

It's a more playable version of DOA, but it doesn't show that anyone whatsoever is willing to play it in a tournament environment.

What would be playable in that environment is DOA without CS holds. You should know this because it's what everyone always complains about. I know this because it's what I want to complain about every time I go back to the stupid game.

Soon, DOA isn't just going to be laughed at as "the game with the big breasted girls and retarded counters".

It's going to be "the game with the big breasted girls, retarded counters, and full retard QTE."

You honestly think the game is going to have a tournament life with that stigma? Get serious. There has to be a drastic change for anything to affect public opinion about it.

 

[Jefffcore]

I have to side with Raansu. Even if it's some parry type thing that sets both characters back at neutral and does no damage, I think there should be something for short stuns; assuming they don't completely overhaul the stun system.

If the stun threshold were smaller it wouldn't matter if it were possible to hold out of stuns. That would make this discussion pointless, wouldn't it?

Of course there are other variables like damage.

If there were no holds in stun at all, there would be no point to extending stuns at all. Adding in NH launchers is all we'd need in that case.

There's also the ability to break combo holds and throws. If you're taking out every option in stun to stop a combo, you'd have to take those out; everything in DOA has to be treated the same.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

I personally think that if you're stunned and you guess wrong during the stun you lose the counter option you just used.

So say you counter High and the opponent hits you with a low, well you can no longer counter high for the duration of the stun. So I know that my next high attack is all but guaranteed.

You counter a mid kick and I do a mid punch instead - If I'm playing with Zack and I notice this you will eat . I would be guaranteed that WHOLE combo because you guessed wrong.

Now maybe there would be a more damaging option I could choose that involved a mid punch or high attack - and certainly there would be some damage reduction for taking the all mids into the launch - but if I don't want to guess, then I can spam mid kicks into a till the stun situation is finished.

And to be absolutely clear you would not lose the counter for the the rest of the match, every time you're stunned it resets the process.

Edit: I swtiched up the words high and low before, so anyone who read it before the edit don't be a D-bag, I know the difference

 

[FakeSypha]

Isn't DOA based on that "rock-paper-scissors" system? So if you get rid of holds, you'd need to re balance the game.

I don't see that happening in DOA5. I mean, I kinda see holds as a trademark of DOA, and maybe Team Ninja feels the same way.

Anyway, I gotta admit that I understand OP's point. Shit can be really unfair sometimes with bullsh*t holds out of the nowhere.

 

[x Sypher x]

Isn't DOA based on that "rock-paper-scissors" system? So if you get rid of holds, you'd need to re balance the game.

I don't see that happening in DOA5. I mean, I kinda see holds as a trademark of DOA, and maybe Team Ninja feels the same way.

Anyway, I gotta admit that I understand OP's point. Shit can be really unfair sometimes with bullsh*t holds out of the nowhere.

If you read the title of the thread you will notice that what everyone is talking about is NOT taking out holds completely from the game. The idea is to remove the ability to hold while in a critical stun.

 

[Zero254]

It makes sense, you can't just switch to paper in a game of rock paper scissors when someone throws a rock(strike) at you and you choose scissors(throw).

You get hit for choosing scissors(throw) and then you get hit and crumple into paper(hold) and take a fourth of their healthbar because you were in critical stun. Lets not forget how op lower holds were in doa4. You could recover before their strike animation even finished.

 

[Arnell Long]

Take away Counters while in a Critical State, make the neutral Counter Windows smaller, and adjust the Health to fit that formula...

 

[Jefffcore]

Take away Counters while in a Critical State and make the neutral Counter Windows smaller...

Then the stun threshold should be shortened. It would be almost pointless to have critical stuns otherwise.

Stuns were made to risk lengthening them to get a higher launch. If you take out the risk there's no point having them there. The only other alternative is SE, but I don't see a point to keeping the threshold long to just have the ability to SE them. It would just be annoying being stunned a bunch of times, then get launched. That also bring up the question of what the ground game will be like; it could end up one endless cycle.

Don't get me wrong, I'm on the same boat, I just don't think it's being thought through all the way.

 

[UncleKitchener]

If by rebalance, you actually mean 'balance', then yes.

Also you can still have your favourite 60+ damage defensive holds as double direction holds too. EVERYONE WINS!

 

[Arnell Long]

Jefffcore, of course the Critical Stun state will have be shorten cause otherwise it'll further trash the System and Idea of getting rid of Counters in Critical Stun as a whole. A good set of tweaks can work wonders.

 

[Jefffcore]

As long as everybody's on the same page.

 

[Arnell Long]

That's a hard feat but I most certainly concur.

 

[Berzerk!]

3.1 is not proof of anything.

It's a more playable version of DOA, but it doesn't show that anyone whatsoever is willing to play it in a tournament environment.

What would be playable in that environment is DOA without CS holds. You should know this because it's what everyone always complains about. I know this because it's what I want to complain about every time I go back to the stupid game.

Soon, DOA isn't just going to be laughed at as "the game with the big breasted girls and retarded counters".

It's going to be "the game with the big breasted girls, retarded counters, and full retard QTE."

You honestly think the game is going to have a tournament life with that stigma? Get serious. There has to be a drastic change for anything to affect public opinion about it.

I think this is a view that ignores the changes in the six and more years since the gaming scene last looked at DOA. There is genuine and broad excitement for the game. The fighting scene has changed and grown and completely new players will be looking at it for the first time.

Old biases about the game won't hold so long as we know its solid, the community can talk about its strengths and be heard. It's likely that people will still put it down for features they don't understand (hell, 2D players have trouble with 3D games just because of the block button), but so long as the game is GOOD, this will be a minority and people will be keen to open up the game and take it for what it is.

 

[FakeSypha]

If you read the title of the thread you will notice that what everyone is talking about is NOT taking out holds completely from the game. The idea is to remove the ability to hold while in a critical stun.

Point taken. Reading the whole thread for best comprehension, sry D:

==========

Still, as the novice DOA player I am, lemme get this right: on recent DOA games (DOA4/Dimensions) what can you actually DO when you're on critical stun? slowscape? hold? anything else? You get on critical stun by fucking up yourself in most cases, so you should get punished in those cases (according to my common sense, at least). In most fighting games it is just like that. But in DOA, you have the possibility to counter hold when you're in such state (guessing right on the 3 or 4 point system, or just spamming as a lot of people do). Yes, it's unfair, but it's also the very purpose of those holds. I think of DOA1, when it was launched. What was different from other 3D fighters? holds, environmental damage, and bouncy tits. Well, focusing on holds, I imagine they were just trying to give the player a tool to counter the foe and "turn up the table" when he is getting his shit slapped. The idea doesn't sound easy to implement to me. It's not an easy feature to put on a fighter while keeping the balance and pace of the fights.

I like the idea of holds as they're right now. Probably because I'm not that deep in the gameplay knowledge of this series. But again, I see your concern. The way it is, just attempts on the possibility of being a competitive fighting game and whatnot.

Well, too much nonsense from me. Rest your eyes now xD

Btw, sorry for any grammar error you see. English isn't my native language.

 

[Jefffcore]

More or less.

A hold is instant, and gives you instant damage. When you attack someone you have the risk of being held, it doesn't really make sense (Unless you get a launch on Counter Blow); it's not very balanced. Holding is usually a better option then crushing because you get guaranteed damage. There should be guaranteed damage from attacking, too, to balance it out.

 

[Arnell Long]

Yea, it's like when you get someone in a Critical Stun aka at a Disadvantage you still have that fear of being Hold/Held which then makes you realize you're not truly at an Advantage. I also hate how I can have someone in a Critical Stun combo and they can mash on the Low Counter Hold and make me whiff my otherwise guaranteed Combo.

So by taking away Counter Holds in Critical Stun, shortening the overall Counter Hold Window, and lessen the time spent in Critical Stun can prove to be a much better DOA.

Oh and...
Dead or Alive Wiki
Re-tweeted from http://twitter.com/#!/deadoraliveeu..."We will be announcing something really good tomorrow about DOA5. So stay tune to tomorrow folks. Please RT and Thank You!! "

http://twitter.com/#!/DOAWiki

Hmm, tick tock...

 

[x Sypher x]

Yea, it's like when you get someone in a Critical Stun aka at a Disadvantage you still have that fear of being Hold/Held which then makes you realize you're not truly at an Advantage. I also hate how I can have someone in a Critical Stun combo and they can mash on the Low Counter Hold and make me whiff my otherwise guaranteed Combo.

So by taking away Counter Holds in Critical Stun, shortening the overall Counter Hold Window, and lessen the time spent in Critical Stun can prove to be a much better DOA.

Oh and...
Dead or Alive Wiki
Re-tweeted from http://twitter.com/#!/deadoraliveeu..."We will be announcing something really good tomorrow about DOA5. So stay tune to tomorrow folks. Please RT and Thank You!! "

http://twitter.com/#!/DOAWiki

Hmm, tick tock...

Agreed

 

[Rikuto]

I personally think that if you're stunned and you guess wrong during the stun you lose the counter option you just used.

So say you counter High and the opponent hits you with a low, well you can no longer counter high for the duration of the stun. So I know that my next high attack is all but guaranteed.

You counter a mid kick and I do a mid punch instead - If I'm playing with Zack and I notice this you will eat . I would be guaranteed that WHOLE combo because you guessed wrong.

Now maybe there would be a more damaging option I could choose that involved a mid punch or high attack - and certainly there would be some damage reduction for taking the all mids into the launch - but if I don't want to guess, then I can spam mid kicks into a till the stun situation is finished.

And to be absolutely clear you would not lose the counter for the the rest of the match, every time you're stunned it resets the process.

Edit: I swtiched up the words high and low before, so anyone who read it before the edit don't be a D-bag, I know the difference

Or you could just get rid of holds in stun and have the game play like a competent fighter that people actually want to play. Your solution does not address the problem.

It doesn't matter if DOA 4, 3 or 2 era players think there is a way to make it perfectly playable. Nobody outside of the DOA bubble is willing to put up with that shit. It has to go or the game will die.

That's why I asked the question, how important are holds in stun to you? Are they important enough that you're willing to let the game be passed over for another six years?

Or do you actually want tournaments to happen for the game that have more than 20 people entering it? It can happen. You can have hundreds. But not with that shitty gimmick in play.

 

[FakeSypha]

The problem with that, Rikuto, is Team Ninja isn't aiming for a "competitive" fighter. So I don't see that happening.. at least not in DOA5.

--> "fighting entertainment", Power Blows, QTEs, even more stage interaction/damage, etc. Sure it will be fun, but competitive (as in respected tournament competitions)? I don't think so.