DOA5U Homework Time! Footsies and Spacing 101

[Intelligent Alpha]

One thing I've noticed is that, when most brag about rushing my main (because it's easy), when she pushes back or when they're about to lose the match, THEN they worry about spacing and start thinking! That really irks me. You spend 99.9% bull-rushing, only to act as if you're now being patient when you're scared, but players who rush are scared ironically. As the OP said: "They lack spacing fundamentals themselves!" I can't blame them since this game doesn't explain defense very well. (I don't consider countering as defense -- well, not the only means to defend oneself)

I get alot of hate (alpha players in general do) because of her well-endowed defensive nature. I wouldn't mind if more players would at least respect this approach. I also think all characters can be defensive at times but again, DOA does not take pride in it! All of these tools:

Footsies, Poking (DMs) Conditioning, Baiting, Keepaway, Defensive Mix-ups (to get someone on the defensive) - much more effective ways to counter since they are counters (and since my main has none, what's wrong with these other tactics?) - especially, for a "pure" offensive character?

here's something even more ironic and irritating: "You gotta get more offensive!" I get told this more, but how dare I tell someone to "get more defensive." I keep saying, aggression is not everything and isn't this why alpha is universally hated? Yet, you have every other character doing the same but they're loved?

I always make the analogy of: Playing checkers vs. chess! Doesn't take much to play checkers, but chess? You spend more time thinking then moving pieces; however, with checkers, one doesn't think until the game is nearly over whereas with chess, you're thinking before you move the first piece!

Neither method in DOA is bad and I respect both, but this quote seems to be lost on offensive/aggressive players: "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!" Either player type can and will make a mistake. The aggressive player's problem is fearing that the passive (or passive-aggressive) opponent won't!

Defensive players are feared more than offensive players because they actually have more tools and options to utilize! But they use the most valuable intangible: Their Intelligence! Offensive players do as well, but its hard to see because the controller gets in the way!

JMHO any thoughts?

 

[Tenryuga]

I personally love fighting over agressive players because they are the ones that tend to make the most mistakes during footsies and spacing. They also make it easier to counterpoke and punish them because some of them structure their offense in terrible ways.

It generally seems like players that have solid defense and patience (I wouldn't say I am a defensive player; Moreso a balanced playstyle) give players in this game the most trouble. I usually get mail saying ppl had a hard time fighting me because they never dealt with someone so patient before lol.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

@yuga: Yeah, I still get that too, but not as often as the "I hate when you go all-defense mode!" (Heh, at least they recognize it). I played this person (who also plays alpha) and at first we had a heated argument, but we were on the same page. I asked him where he thought i was /100 (off:def) and said 50/50. Somewhere around 40/60 or 45/55 is where I feel comfortable. Still even when I'm on the offensive I'm still thinking defensively.

I always try to exhaust my opponents' options on a mental level - not a physical level; however, when they are mentally exhausted, I don't exhaust my physical options either (crazy ass combos) because once you wear someone down mentally, you've won!! (Note my user name)

Something else I find intriguing too is, players asking themselves the wrong question when facing alpha. Most ask "What?" instead of "WHEN?" or even "WHY?" This is the reason for the mental exhaustion, but ironically, this isn't my fault!

Ex: Alpha's Forward K cartwheel. (4K6K is my personal fav; 8K and 2H+K) All of these can be delayed and used to setup so much more.

In the beginning, I did what lots of newbies do and just threw them out there for no reason. Now, I use them much more effectively and efficiently because again opponents focus on what instead of when or why. Due to this misguided thinking, it's believed if they grab every single one every single time, I'll stop! No, I will not! The frequency just changes! They think this is foolish, but they have no clue about the various scenarios I've already setup since I'm thinking ahead! Again, I make mistakes, but it's completely different when they are intentional! KWIM?

IOW, I do more by appearing to do less which is why I'm being asked (sometimes demanded) to do more! Don't let me 236236T on a missed hold! See? Does alpha need combos? No!

Capitalizing on mistakes is what she does best and i used to be hold happy! Ironic, right? This pisses people off since I make them hold but resist doing so myself! Throw them and they wonder why all their health left - not to mention throwing out of spite since its very difficult to strike me!

I really frustrate people! To be fair, they frustrate me, too. However, it's the fact that I don't/won't get rattled which I believe is the #1 rule to being defensive! Don't get rattled; yet, my defensive stance seems to do that to opponents. Coincidence?

 

[Force_of_Nature]

As an Ayane player, I love fighting over aggressive opponents because I find that they tend to get careless easily and fall quickly to someone with good defense. I find that overly aggressive opponents try to compensate for their lack of defensive capability by trying to control the match by pushing a lot of buttons. As long as those buttons can be thwarted, they can't do anything to you, unless you get careless your self.

I find an easy way to test an opponent's battle temperament is seeing how they react to a patient player that doesn't fold under pressure. If they get frustrated, they've pretty much lost the match because nothing they do will be in the right mindset. If they adapt to your patience, then they're a quality opponent. I will admit that DOA Online can thin one's patience very quickly, but in an offline setting, if you lose patience or get frustrated, you deserve to lose the match and simply need to get better.

I wish that more people could play DOA5U offline, because online tends to undermine proper spacing and footsies too much. DOA Online erodes fundamental play too much and leaves a bad impression of the game to the FGC by making the game look scrubbier than it actually is. I find that too many players play recklessly online because they get away with it way too much. In my scene, reckless play gets adapted to and punished almost immediately due to the capability for efficient movement and consistent reactions. No one is allowed to get away with bullshit consistently.

 

[AkaShocka]

As an offensive or aggressive player, very good defensive players aren't too bad for me. When ever I play a very good defensive player, I will change my style. I will be a tad more patient, and only throw out certain moves (most likely use more GBs, hold restraining moves/strings, or just normal safe moves). I have fought good defensive players and I got in their head a little by throwing out unsafe looking moves (perfect example being Christie's flurry punches, 9p and jak 6p+k which are all safe) that were actually safe. Being a Christie player, i love using safer attacks because everyone is so used to unsafe Christies. Defensive players I play are usually the best slow escapers and holders (though they mostly choose SE) over the offensive players and me being a Christie player, I know that they can't SE my stuns because Christie has lift stuns out the ass. This will more than likely be able to make them try to hold and I can get a free HiC or a reset throw . Christie can also be played defensively though. I can understand why people use her offensively because she is very offensive and has good mixups but she is also good with punishment and keepout. Christie's distance game is highly underrated along with her keepout. Her 7k and jak 6p+k are good keepout tools and both are safe. Christie even has good frame traps, as I foreshadowed earlier, her flurry punches (3ppp, pp4ppp, and 66ppp) are all hold restraint on hit or on block for one and are safe. 9p is +0 and jak 6p+k is just -5. she has many good GBs like 236P, jak 4P, 4p+k, all flurry punch strings when fully charged, and so forth. All of those I just listed, excluding the flurry punches, are highly unused in Christie's play but are all very good tools.

So me being offensive against a defensive player will make me a bit more defensive or careful when i play. I really do love defensive players and they honestly give me my best fights and make me realize my mistakes more.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

^I think we've played each other before. I have played a few from here and DOAW!

If no one minds me asking,what is considered a mistake because as I've said with me, I mean to make them! "Don't give me lows!" Yet, you get beat by what I shouldn't have given you. Again, focusing on what - not when. It's hard to consider the infinite amount of variables within a fight, thus why I shy away from training (simulating the dummy) It demonstrates the "What, Not When" fallacy. Not to mention most don't go in there for REAL defensive purposes!

That may be on the biggest mistake right there! Viewing Training Mode the wrong way! It demonstrates the "What, Not When" fallacy.

I saw the SF video and this stuck out to me:

(Paraphrased) Most defend themselves by reacting! This is so true even if you've played each other loads and "know" each other very well! I believe this is the REAL reason if not one of many for the offensive/defensive play-style division - online AND offline!

I used to react (by being hold happy) all the time and folks loved it. Now, I don't and annoy them because I don't react anymore or in the manner they wish! I also don't come with crazy offense (One guy online said I had no style lol) I don't need to since defense is my offense! (Forgive the passion here!)

 

[Malfury]

That may be on the biggest mistake right there! Viewing Training Mode the wrong way! It demonstrates the "What, Not When" fallacy.

I saw the SF video and this stuck out to me:

(Paraphrased) Most defend themselves by reacting! This is so true even if you've played each other loads and "know" each other very well! I believe this is the REAL reason if not one of many for the offensive/defensive play-style division - online AND offline!

This reinforces what I said earlier too. Unless you got a legit training routine or something for training mode, you shouldn't use it as a means of training on how to beat people. If people used training mode more efficiently, becoming a better player becomes more apparent. But the real training comes from playing other players, and often. The more you play different kinds of people, the more experience you gain and you'll get alot better.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

This reinforces what I said earlier too. Unless you got a legit training routine or something for training mode, you shouldn't use it as a means of training on how to beat people. If people used training mode more efficiently, becoming a better player becomes more apparent. But the real training comes from playing other players, and often. The more you play different kinds of people, the more experience you gain and you'll get alot better.

Once more, I (Alpha) evolved in this manner! Most of my stuff I found playing Survival (I know the AI is a different thing and I still hate how they dumbed them down; yet, you have counter-whores out the wazoo online. Spare me the "AI and humans are different opponents!" Just because humans mistime frames! (And yes, lag, but that's gonna happen from time to time) I've met some serious counter-whores that would put Pre-Patch .01 Legend AI to shame!) I evolved by playing alot of Ranked and Lobbies matches, too!

There's a major different between a REAL fight whether AI or human than a simulated one! Heck, Online Dojo is more or less a simulation because neither opponent is going to execute verbatum. If anything, Online Dojo was instituted to really throw you off! Clever move, TN!

But I have to ask, since I left the "What playstyle does X character fit?" (I exploded in that one)

Let me back up a sec. This "Saving Replays" that falls under training wrongly as well. Here's why:

It's literally saying that you needn't adapt during the fight or the you don't have the capacity to take mental notes, again, {I]during[/I] the fight! Explain to me, how I can deliberately repeat a pattern (which there's a reason for doing), but you not see it and snag something? Then, when I fight you again, yeah, I repeat the same pattern, but vary it (delays/rearranging) or come with something completely different and you're like "Where did that come from?"

Again, being focused on the "What" not When (I messed you up delaying the what)

Yet, returning to the playstyle question: This game is messed up because too many people take every character and play them the same damn way (effectiveness has nothing to do it - NOTHING!)

"Oh, I see Alpha Kick/Throw/Combo spamming and the good shit, too! I must do it!" Yet, again, everybody looks at mine and has a problem! Mind you, that you beat alpha (regardless of who's controlling her), the same damn way even if it totally contradicts your playstyle (really assuming you're just not copying what someone else is doing, but if everybody is rushing her. Effectiveness means absolutely nothing!

Ironically, everyone knows she excels in space; therefore, rushing ensues to diminish it (or pick close quarters or hope close quarters shows up in ranked) But you can't tell me she is the only character whom excels in space (and probably the best at it).

Someone told me Eliot was a spacer, but I see him all up in there - and its not just against Alpha either. Likewise, with Phase 4 (I've seen the entire video). I feel (like the video did) that she should space and bait since being in there isn't that great! I've played against her loads and damn it, he is right! How is she this awful? I practically have a field day defending her! (I can boast about her lacking areas too!) But again, due to the all-offense-no-defense nature of DOA (and having players believe this) smdh

Ease & Effectiveness are not the same; yet, they are not mutually exclusive terms either. Likewise, Most Damaging and Effectiveness aren't either. Where did the idea come from that these words were/are interchangeable. Fast = Good, Slow = Bad is another (always a damn ninja - alpha isn't one - rarely if ever, a non-ninja)

I also hear this: Player A's character X is better than Player's B! The reason I can't stand Alpha mirrors! Apparently, everybody else's are better than mine, but I can't tell because they're literally carbon copies of each other!("So many Alphas!" Good gravy!)

Helenas, Christies, Baymans, Marie Roses, Kokoros, Hayates, Momijis (Help me) Ryus, Kasumis, Rachaels ... you guys get it! Why? Training wrongly and for all the wrong reasons! Why are these characters operating in a box? Ironically, players are telling me to step inside that box as well! No! thank you! That's why they have a hard time dealing with me! I'm a bigger threat than most of these alphas I see (and some of them are friends! That's the sad part!)

You pose a bigger threat to somebody once in their head vs. someone who just beats you to a bloody pulp! Training does not teach the mental aspects of this game! It tries, but it fails! (It's not just this game either) I'm not saying this mode is useless or nothing can be learned from it, but it relies too much on the physical aspects, if not only those aspects (combos and countering correctly)

 

[TekkenBlackBelt]

I know I'm late with this thread but what would be the best way to Korean Back Dash on DOA? I'm kinda having problems with that.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

214214 x n or 4214214 x n are both recommended. I use the first.

x n = how many times you wish to repeat the notation in succession. But must always be done at least twice.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I know I'm late with this thread but what would be the best way to Korean Back Dash on DOA? I'm kinda having problems with that.

Set Sidestep to "H+P+K", then do what Hajin says. Another option is to mash 21212121 but that may also be dependent on the smoothness or stiffness of your d-pad.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I hate that term lol. Mash.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Lol, I do "mash it out" though xD. However, I conditioned my d-pad to be receptive to KBD mashing. 21212121 mashing into 4K is lovely.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

I hate that term lol. Mash.

Same here, but the rep this game has! Sad ain't it?

 

[iHajinShinobi]

This game's reputation isn't nearly as bad as you think it is.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

This game's reputation isn't nearly as bad as you think it is.

Let me rephrase that, the {B]Online[/B] reputation. Someone said online skews the offline perception.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

If you've played the game offline @Intelligent Alpha, the main reason why people don't play DOA5U is a combination of not understanding how the game works properly and the illusion that the game is easier to play than it is (and thus "scrubbier" than other games). This is due to the accessible gameplay and low execution requirements at a low level.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Let me rephrase that, the {B]Online[/B] reputation. Someone said online skews the offline perception.

It does, in this game, online and offline are totally different games. Not getting into an Online vs Offline segment, but online skews up offline reflexes due to latency allowing things it shouldn't.

A good example is Momiji's 66K, on block that's -12 and is throw punishable, even i10 frame throw punishable. Online you are counter hit for trying to punish that, same with Rachel's 8K which is -11. I can i10 frame throw punish both of these strikes offline for free.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

It does, in this game, online and offline are totally different games. Not getting into an Online vs Offline segment, but online skews up offline reflexes due to latency allowing things it shouldn't.

A good example is Momiji's 66K, on block that's -12 and is throw punishable, even i10 frame throw punishable. Online you are counter hit for trying to punish that, same with Rachel's 8K which is -11. I can i10 frame throw punish both of these strikes offline for free.

I'm talking lag free! I've had tons of fights where either I'm accused (I play Alpha, so why not?) or I clearly spot when my opponent does it! But yes, lag or not, online really does skew offline; yet, when that's all yo have in terms of real competition! (Someone made that point earlier)

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I'm talking lag free! I've had tons of fights where either I'm accused (I play Alpha, so why not?) or I clearly spot when my opponent does it! But yes, lag or not, online really does skew offline; yet, when that's all yo have in terms of real competition! (Someone made that point earlier)

I'll just straight up say that there's always lag online, even in "5-bar" matches. Especially compared to playing on a 5ms or less monitor offline. Do not take what online randoms say seriously, they're not playing the game properly either due to latency. Online is also not a competitive environment. Too many elements of the game get distorted such as spacing, movement, reactions and punishment. It's an unfortunate situation but that's how things are.