Living in harmony with rabid casuals? (Rikuto's dangerous "opinion")

[grap3fruitman]

Here's a gem from GameFAQs: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/936978-dead-or-alive-5/62007471/691392418

DOA4 came out in 2005 when the console was very expensive and there were only around 5 - 6 million users. This is the year 2012 with 30 MILLION xbox live users, millions of consoles sold. I bet you almost everyone is sick of street fighter, tekken, and soul calibur by now. The last DOA was 6 years ago, when this one launches everyone will be jumping on the DOA bandwagon in a second especially now that this ones multiplatform, new graphics, new level destruction.
too bad for anyone new to the series, the counter system takes at least a couple years to get down at a pro level, its not just blocking like in street fighter, theres tons and tons and tons of stuff to learn when it comes to defense in offense, and im going to all the tourneys with my doa4 years of training and getting that cash money

 

[Relius Starkiller]

Hes not exactly wrong.

Look unless you spend a lot of time working on your reaction speed you will be struggling to react fast enough to moves you know are coming.

Hell, back in 07 I felt myself a countering beast, I took off a few years and guess what - moves that used to seem SLOW to me I'm a quarter step behind on the X button nowadays.

Also, most of the better players had been playing DOA for years at a high level before it blew up in late 06 - the late 05 version of Perfect Legend gets his shit pushed in by the one from Summer 07 just because he had more time to work on his reaction time, learn whats safe, what people are most likely to do in certain situations (E.g Helena counters low, you don't stun her, 70% of the time shes throwing out , period.)

I don't really think the kid is wrong: Slow escaping off the walls, (Efficiently) Slow escaping during a stun, teching consistently, frame advantage, and so on. . . There is a lot to know in DOA4 to be successful at it, however its more like Poker and MMA as opposed to (Street Fighters') Black Jack and Boxing - there is skill in all four but in Poker, MMA and DOA luck is a larger part of the craft.

 

[Rikuto]

People often misinterpret their own ability to counter as having fast reflexes... but it's bullshit.

I don't, you don't. Nobody does.

You can react to those easily telegraphed moves, but thats about it.

Anyone saying otherwise is kidding themselves. It's a damn guess.

You can figure out generic bad habits (like Raansu's inability to stop doing a low sweep after he knocks somebody down and IS NOT going not hit them again) but thats nothing to do with reflexes.

Slow escaping off the walls, (Efficiently) Slow escaping during a stun, teching consistently, frame advantage, and so on. . .

So mashing buttons as fast as possible, mashing buttons as fast as possible efficiently, and mashing a single button consistently.

This takes years of practice? No.

And where in DOA 4 are you finding frame advantage exactly? lol.

 

[x Sypher x]

Anyone saying otherwise is kidding themselves. It's a damn guess.

Isn't that more or less the general concept of the hold? Guessing what you're opponent might throw out. And I don't mean just DOA4, I mean all of them. I don't think there's any way to actually KNOW what's coming, and that's excluding bad habits and telegraphed moves.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

So mashing buttons as fast as possible, mashing buttons as fast as possible efficiently, and mashing a single button consistently.

.

Yeah so knowing that you can SE off a wall is important, I try to teach people how to SE in a stun and they come out of it either not blocking or attacking. Hell most people who learn to SE start trying to do it all the time and all it gets them is juggled because they don't know when to give it up and go for a counter.

Putting it all together - knowledge of your character, knowledge of the other players character, how people generally play the character and the system itself - is what takes time and effort.

I meant to say safe moves, what moves are safe and what aren't.

If you don't know whats safe and what isn't how are you going to punish?

Everything has a element of guessing to it. Do I know exactly when Dalhsim is going to throw out a low heavy punch in SSF4 - no but I take a gamble and throw out the shoryuken anyway.

You know why Justin Wong is good right off the bat rikuto? Because hes been playing Capcom games since he was 5, hes good because he understands the timing, its a part of his mental make up. It took years and years of repetitive action and thinking to get to where he is today. Rikuto, you are good BECAUSE you've been playing the same game for years. You may say it only took you a few months to get to where you are but what about those who didn't grow up playing DOA?

Then again, theres no real way to gauge it right - the game had a very small offline scene with the same 20 or 30 people showing up to the big ones, so how slowly or quickly the average competitor progressed we will never know but if I'm gauging it on offline players who talk about the game in a serious way. . .I'd say a year of casual play to get really good, more if you want to be great, maybe less if you're willing to put in the time to be great.

I'm right, you're wrong, deal with it.


Forever. . . .joking, keep the convo going.

 

[Tenren]

Isn't that more or less the general concept of the hold? Guessing what you're opponent might throw out. And I don't mean just DOA4, I mean all of them. I don't think there's any way to actually KNOW what's coming, and that's excluding bad habits and telegraphed moves.

yes and know. If you pick up how the person is playing then you start to know hey they throw out lows after this combo. Or they like to crouch hold as an escape. If they are a good player they also have the same adaptability as you do. So still keeping it a guessing game.

 

[x Sypher x]

yes and know. If you pick up how the person is playing then you start to know hey they throw out lows after this combo. Or they like to crouch hold as an escape. If they are a good player they also have the same adaptability as you do. So still keeping it a guessing game.

Yes of course, adapting to how your opponent plays and reacts to certain situations is also very important and plays a major role in developing strategies. Holds are still a guess though lol.

 

[Rikuto]

Yeah so knowing that you can SE off a wall is important, I try to teach people how to SE in a stun and they come out of it either not blocking or attacking. Hell most people who learn to SE start trying to do it all the time and all it gets them is juggled because they don't know when to give it up and go for a counter.

Putting it all together - knowledge of your character, knowledge of the other players character, how people generally play the character and the system itself - is what takes time and effort.

I meant to say safe moves, what moves are safe and what aren't.

If you don't know whats safe and what isn't how are you going to punish?

Everything has a element of guessing to it. Do I know exactly when Dalhsim is going to throw out a low heavy punch in SSF4 - no but I take a gamble and throw out the shoryuken anyway.

You know why Justin Wong is good right off the bat rikuto? Because hes been playing Capcom games since he was 5, hes good because he understands the timing, its a part of his mental make up. It took years and years of repetitive action and thinking to get to where he is today. Rikuto, you are good BECAUSE you've been playing the same game for years. You may say it only took you a few months to get to where you are but what about those who didn't grow up playing DOA?

Then again, theres no real way to gauge it right - the game had a very small offline scene with the same 20 or 30 people showing up to the big ones, so how slowly or quickly the average competitor progressed we will never know but if I'm gauging it on offline players who talk about the game in a serious way. . .I'd say a year of casual play to get really good, more if you want to be great, maybe less if you're willing to put in the time to be great.

I'm right, you're wrong, deal with it.


Forever. . . .joking, keep the convo going.

What does this have to do with anything?

It didn't take me years of practice to figure out that the hold system was a guessing game.

It doesn't take the average scrub longer than a day or two to figure out how to use it effectively either. Even C rank trash will still counter you.

It doesn't take any manner of time to learn how to do anything effectively in DOA. The only thing that takes time is the players own stubborn nature and a refusal to improve.

If people are going to be stupid and scrubby and not use the resources available to them on the internet that's their own fault, not the game's.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

If people are going to be stupid and scrubby and not use the resources available to them on the internet that's their own fault, not the game's.

I'll start with this: this is a joke right? DOA4's practice mode is a joke, slow escaping isn't even mentioned in the manual. Everything I needed to know about Street Fighter 3rd strike was either in the manual or in the game itself. Rabbits don't go digging for carrots, they like em, their good at eating them but digging for em. . .not so much. All that info should have been in the fucking game.

You can't sit here and say that because it was easy for you to pick up that its easy for others. You talk about Ransuu's bad habits (which are legit, the guy just spams lows like its going out of style) but aren't bad habits what playing a game, competing in a sport are all about? Not all of us get to have lighting fast reaction speed just like all of us don't get to run a 4.30 40 Yard dash! But those that can't do naturally have to work that much harder. Why is competitive gaming so different in that there isn't a disparity between natural ability of the players?

Some people can only learn in a class room, some can only learn by speaking the information allowed, some people have ADHD, some people are Rhodes scholars, some are mentally handicapped, some (like myself) are slightly retarded.

Some, like yourself, are going to pick this shit up really easy. If you want to know how difficult it is to teach people how to play this game properly go holler at Sylnt Avi - he was talking about it just a few months ago, that, just trying to hammer into someone the importance of grabbing is a sobering experience as every other day they play each other the people just seem to go from not grabbing to always grabbing to the point that its predictable.

Look, I hate big walls of text, could you maybe just agree with me so I don't have to write another one. . .because all I'm really saying is that it was easier for you, I and others to get good for various reasons but we need to respect the fact that some of are jogging in a different lane on the track.

Also, C ranks just attack until they are stunned, when they are stunned they will always counter so all you have to do to beat them is wait and grab. They rarely block because they are probably still trying to decided whether or not they should hold X or hold backwards. To beat the average C + takes very little thought, why? Because they don't understand how everything works together yet.

 

[Awesmic]

It doesn't take any manner of time to learn how to do anything effectively in DOA. The only thing that takes time is the players own stubborn nature and a refusal to improve.

If people are going to be stupid and scrubby and not use the resources available to them on the internet that's their own fault, not the game's.

I've used the resources and practiced them 100 times each.

It took me six years to improve. And to this day, I'm still learning.

 

[Rikuto]

I've used the resources and practiced them 100 times each.

It took me six years to improve. And to this day, I'm still learning.

I highly doubt that. You're probably just remembering shit you randomly forgot. Happens all the time with DOA 4.

There isn't enough in this game to learn anything after one year, let alone six.

I'll start with this: this is a joke right? DOA4's practice mode is a joke, slow escaping isn't even mentioned in the manual. Everything I needed to know about Street Fighter 3rd strike was either in the manual or in the game itself. Rabbits don't go digging for carrots, they like em, their good at eating them but digging for em. . .not so much. All that info should have been in the fucking game.

You can't sit here and say that because it was easy for you to pick up that its easy for others. You talk about Ransuu's bad habits (which are legit, the guy just spams lows like its going out of style) but aren't bad habits what playing a game, competing in a sport are all about? Not all of us get to have lighting fast reaction speed just like all of us don't get to run a 4.30 40 Yard dash! But those that can't do naturally have to work that much harder. Why is competitive gaming so different in that there isn't a disparity between natural ability of the players?

Some people can only learn in a class room, some can only learn by speaking the information allowed, some people have ADHD, some people are Rhodes scholars, some are mentally handicapped, some (like myself) are slightly retarded.

Some, like yourself, are going to pick this shit up really easy. If you want to know how difficult it is to teach people how to play this game properly go holler at Sylnt Avi - he was talking about it just a few months ago, that, just trying to hammer into someone the importance of grabbing is a sobering experience as every other day they play each other the people just seem to go from not grabbing to always grabbing to the point that its predictable.

Look, I hate big walls of text, could you maybe just agree with me so I don't have to write another one. . .because all I'm really saying is that it was easier for you, I and others to get good for various reasons but we need to respect the fact that some of are jogging in a different lane on the track.

Also, C ranks just attack until they are stunned, when they are stunned they will always counter so all you have to do to beat them is wait and grab. They rarely block because they are probably still trying to decided whether or not they should hold X or hold backwards. To beat the average C + takes very little thought, why? Because they don't understand how everything works together yet.

If you want to learn a fighting game you look for player resources. Anyone who expects the game to teach them everything needs to play a different genre. Fighting games are about self improvement, not the hand holding bullshit that plagues every other modern day genre.

And the fact still remains -- it doesn't take years to learn this shit. It just takes years for some people to get off of their ignorant asses and find it worth their time to actually improve.

If it is actually taking someone two or three years to learn how to mash random directions while hitting the free button, maybe they need to focus on other aspects of life because I don't see any actual improvement in the near ever for them.

CCP had the right idea with their player tutorial.

"Welcome to EVE, here is a rubix cube. Go fuck yourself."

 

[Relius Starkiller]

I highly doubt that. You're probably just remembering shit you randomly forgot. Happens all the time with DOA 4.

There isn't enough in this game to learn anything after one year, let alone six.



If you want to learn a fighting game you look for player resources. Anyone who expects the game to teach them needs to play a different genre. Fighting games are about self improvement, not the hand holding bullshit that plagues every other modern day genre.

And the point still remains -- it doesn't take years to learn this shit. It just takes years for some people to get off of their ignorant asses and find it worth their time to actually improve.

Hahaha, hows the crack Rikuto? You can learn almost everything you need to know to be competitive in Blazblue, KOF13, SSF4, MVC3 and Virtua Fighter SIMPLY BY PLAYING THE GAME. There is nothing in ANY of those games, as important as slow escaping, that is neglected to be explained in game.

In every board game known to man there is a complete and comprehensive rule book that comes along with it.

In every shooting game the manual will explain the entire system to you (How to fire the gun, how to move, ect).

Why do we need secrets? So that we can justify ourselves by saying "I take this game so seriously that I'd be willing to go on a forum to look up the frame data?" Get real man, fighting games are about competition. What about that kid whos internet time is limited or, non-existant. I guess the little scum bag should go kick rocks because Rikuto wants you to have to go on a forum to get simple information that could have been explained in the training mode.

If we are still having the discussion as to whether all of the system information should be explained in game or in a manual that comes with the game, then Rikuto, we've got a long fucking year a head of us.

 

[Awesmic]

In other news, VF and Skulgirls are hard at work with taking tutorials to the next level (the former having done this already nearly 10 years ago).

How nice it would be if Team Ninja took the time to beat them at their own game. SF x Tekken's online training mode would be a plus as well...

 

[Relius Starkiller]

In other news, VF and Skulgirls are hard at work with taking tutorials to the next level (the former having done this already nearly 10 years ago).

How nice it would be if Team Ninja took the time to beat them at their own game. SF x Tekken's online training mode would be a plus as well...

Preach - they need to start putting frame data in the tutorials too.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Hahaha, hows the crack Rikuto? You can learn almost everything you need to know to be competitive in Blazblue, KOF13, SSF4, MVC3 and Virtua Fighter SIMPLY BY PLAYING THE GAME. There is nothing in ANY of those games, as important as slow escaping, that is neglected to be explained in game.

SF4 - Option-selects
MVC3 - Triangle Jumping
VF(4) - Has the best training mode ever from what I hear.

BB & KOF I can't comment on as I never stuck with the games long enough to know their 'tricks'. I can say that I've been playing KOF for years with friends of mine since KOF '98, but it wasn't until KOF XII did I find out the differences between all the jumps in the game. I had been playing it like Street Fighter all that time.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Hahaha, hows the crack Rikuto? You can learn almost everything you need to know to be competitive in Blazblue, KOF13, SSF4, MVC3 and Virtua Fighter SIMPLY BY PLAYING THE GAME. There is nothing in ANY of those games, as important as slow escaping, that is neglected to be explained in game.

Frame data, frame traps and option selects would like to have a word with you. Even proper combo-ing isn't explained well. What planet are you from? I'm honestly having a hard time believing that you're being serious.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

Because frame data is essential to being really good at Blazblue?

Look at what you put in bold jackass "There is nothing in ANY of those games, as important as slow escaping, that is neglected to be explained in game."

Whats the equivalent to slow escaping in Blazblue? Burst Meter.

KOF13, Neomax.

MVC3, X Factor.

Are there things that aren't explained? Yes but I think knowing whats safe, what isn't and string recognition are the B side to Option Select and those other systems that I'm too lazy to type out.

Grape, I'm honestly having a hard time believing you're not an automaton.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

SF4 - Option-selects
MVC3 - Triangle Jumping
VF(4) - Has the best training mode ever from what I hear.

BB & KOF I can't comment on as I never stuck with the games long enough to know their 'tricks'. I can say that I've been playing KOF for years with friends of mine since KOF '98, but it wasn't until KOF XII did I find out the differences between all the jumps in the game. I had been playing it like Street Fighter all that time.

The different jumps are explained in KOF13.

The rest of that I answered for grape after he copy and pasted what you just said.

 

[Rikuto]

Slow escaping is not essential to playing DOA lol.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

Slow escaping is not essential to playing DOA lol.

Nothing is essential to playing any fighter - pick up the controller and start getting your shit pushed in little buddy!

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about winning and if you aren't SEing off the walls then you're losing to me.