"Promise me, you won't tell anyone" Honoka General Discussion

[CookingMama]

So I've pretty much gone full yolo now and just 6K anybody trying to do a wakeup kick on me. It feels like it works more than I expect. I wanna try and get the timing down pat and really shut that option down.

I've also done 4K on a low wake up kick before and got a SDS (might be for mid too I haven't looked too far into this).

 

[DestructionBomb]

So I've pretty much gone full yolo now and just 6K anybody trying to do a wakeup kick on me. It feels like it works more than I expect. I wanna try and get the timing down pat and really shut that option down.

I've also done 4K on a low wake up kick before and got a SDS (might be for mid too I haven't looked too far into this).

Most of that particular options varies on the initial frames they are willing to commence a wake up kick option. What you could do is check the lab and perform tests that can spot-on timings for WUKs, such as whiffing a jab into whatever raw move you are using to beat out the WUK upon contact.

However there are different factors coming into play here regarding situations on when you want to beat out WUKs. For one, when you are in the lab, the CPU wake up attack options are different than human WUKs because the bot can perform a wake up kick the moment the invincibility kicks off when they touch the ground. Players however don't have access to that portion actually because if they try to perform it within the same time frame as the bot they would immediately tech up. Even if such a case were to happen, the window time to perform a wake up kick at that time gap would be too small just to get a ample reward. (Ex: Akira 2T > 2P > Palm, it will always beat out the CPU's wake up attack option. Though since 2P isn't generally guaranteed in CPU standards and off by 2 frames in human standards, that timing only works on the CPU because the i13 palm is in the right adjustable frame to beat it out due to the bot having the option and command to instantly do a WUK on that very first frame upon touching the ground as well as the palm having a higher damage priority. Similar case to where if two i14s challenge each other on neutral startup, the one with the higher damage will win for priority.)

What you could do is having yourself set up as the dummy to do the attacks and "you as P1" perform the wake up kicks so that it's human material and in logic should work against human players because it's commencing on the same time gap as they normally would. Test it out in a scenario where you can expect them to sit for the few delays and immediately wake up kick mashing or whatever the case may be. You just have to remember that the opponent also has the option to wait it out and then performing a wake up kick a bit later or side teching wake up attacks that can eliminate your no-timing factors of eliminating wake up kicks raw from connectivity. Course, you can condition them to sit there because they would be too afraid to do a wake up kick situation there and force tech them up because they chose to sit on the ground instead.

 

[Nikotsumi]

Here's something I thought was interesting and wanted to share : against Momiji's Tenku on block the best thing to do is to fuzzy guard (avoids every follow up), thought it's not so easy to do so (at least for me), especially in online matches, and you could also side step, avoiding P and K but not the throw.

I've found a way to effectively crush both K and T with Honoka by doing a crouching move that hits mid, in this case 33P for guaranteed damage and 214P+K to go for mix ups. Obviously you can still be hit by P since it's a mid, but imo it's not as threatening as the other 2 options.

It works even with Brad and Helena's version of those moves, since they have the same properties, and you can do the same with every character that has a crouching move that hits mid. (e.g Marie Rose' 3H+K). It doesn't work with non-crouching high crush moves (e.g. the shoulder).

 

[DestructionBomb]

Nice. Also extra note is that you can also 2T immediately after the gimmick cancel on block if people can't fuzzy it or to eliminate the players trying to cancel out of it for gimmick play. It's considered crouching from cancel. Not ultra reliable if you play a lightweight because the falling P will bounce you for combo initiate. But if you play a heavy it's quite reliable.

 

[CookingMama]

33P is a super move really. It also works well against Ayane's 66KK (shoulder loses here). Honestly 33P is better for crushing stuff mid string than the shoulder since shoulder isn't instant. And if you happen to somehow land it on NH that lift stun is great stuff. It is one of the few stuns where she can actually attempt to do the safe-throw stuff.

So something I have been working on for a while, I wasn't going to go into it until I had more experience having it work in actual games, but either my forgetfullness or whatever hasn't been working so well: Honoka's positive guardbreaks. Specifically 8H+K, 4H+K, 1H+K, 46P, and 214P+K (not a guard break but you'll see). The ideal in my head is that all of these moves are around 20 frames and each gives her a positive frames on block (besides 46P but 0 is still pretty positive depending on who you are playing against). This is significant because most of Honoka's stuns on fastest stagger hang out in the +15-19 range. The ideal is when someone is refusing to hold and give you hugs but you need to keep pressure up you switch up to the guardbreaks to force hugs/counter hits. Example would be getting a stun with 6P, which is 18 frames of advantage, and then following up with any of the guardbreaks, which will hit right after they are out of stun (assuming they are stagger escaping at the quickest of speeds). The big thing that stuck out to me is that she has a guardbreak of every hit level. And once hit you can take the advantage to force more hugs or counter hits. Both kinda go with one another.

There are some weird things that can happen after the guardbreaks too. After 3H+K, 3K crushes 9 frame jabs (it outright beats the others). I think it needs more tinkering though. These get really good against a wall too. If they actually get hit by 3H+K you get a hefty wall combo off of it.

So yeah! Thoughts, feelings and perceptions please!

 

[Nikotsumi]

So something I have been working on for a while, I wasn't going to go into it until I had more experience having it work in actual games, but either my forgetfullness or whatever hasn't been working so well: Honoka's positive guardbreaks. Specifically 8H+K, 4H+K, 1H+K, 46P, and 214P+K (not a guard break but you'll see). The ideal in my head is that all of these moves are around 20 frames and each gives her a positive frames on block (besides 46P but 0 is still pretty positive depending on who you are playing against). This is significant because most of Honoka's stuns on fastest stagger hang out in the +15-19 range. The ideal is when someone is refusing to hold and give you hugs but you need to keep pressure up you switch up to the guardbreaks to force hugs/counter hits. Example would be getting a stun with 6P, which is 18 frames of advantage, and then following up with any of the guardbreaks, which will hit right after they are out of stun (assuming they are stagger escaping at the quickest of speeds). The big thing that stuck out to me is that she has a guardbreak of every hit level. And once hit you can take the advantage to force more hugs or counter hits. Both kinda go with one another.

Yeah, I've been doing this for a quite a while too, even without knowing it at first, simply because I kinda dislike going only for non-SE setups against opponents that are really good at stagger escaping. I kinda bugs me going for fixed stuff too much with her, especially since generally her non-SE setups always hit on the same levels (mid P), but yeah, this is another story...
Though I've only been using 46P and 214P+K, damn, I always forget she has a 8H+K, which is a shame because it's such a really good move in this situation, not to mention that it's also a good wall-splat, I should definitely use it more.

I don't know about 4H+K, if I recall correctly this move is +2 on block, but creates a small distance that will make Honoka's fastest pokes whiff (P, 6P), 6K can still connect but gets beaten by 9 frames jabs. It could be used against a wall but if it hits you can't really follow up with a wall juggle. It still can be useful against slower character I guess.

Regarding 214P+K, it's imo the most effective out of these 4 moves since it stuns instead of knocking back on hit, though the drawback is the really short range, thus it can't be exactly used with any stun if you don't want it to whiff. It can actually be blocked (always assuming they're stagger escaping on fastest) only after the following stuns : BT4P, 9PPKP, 6P, 6K, 4K and 3K (cancelling Dokuritsu-Ho).
If they didn't stagger escape fast enough you could keep going with the offense (stuns/throws), if they attempt to press a button after successufully stagger escaping they'll get stunned again, and of course if they just block you're at +1.

Always against stagger escaping opponents, you could even use 7P, but since it's a 30 frames move it requires deeper stuns (3P, 3KP, Heichu P....) and your opponent has to be near a wall to take full advantage of it.
I had something in mind with 7P but I didn't test it yet in a real match.

There are some weird things that can happen after the guardbreaks too. After 3H+K, 3K crushes 9 frame jabs (it outright beats the others). I think it needs more tinkering though. These get really good against a wall too. If they actually get hit by 3H+K you get a hefty wall combo off of it.

Wait, do you mean another move here? 3H+K is not a guardbreak and it's -4 on block.

 

[CookingMama]

Yeah, I've been doing this for a quite a while too, even without knowing it at first, simply because I kinda dislike going only for non-SE setups against opponents that are really good at stagger escaping. I kinda bugs me going for fixed stuff too much with her, especially since generally her non-SE setups always hit on the same levels (mid P), but yeah, this is another story...
Though I've only been using 46P and 214P+K, damn, I always forget she has a 8H+K, which is a shame because it's such a really good move in this situation, not to mention that it's also a good wall-splat, I should definitely use it more.

I don't know about 4H+K, if I recall correctly this move is +2 on block, but creates a small distance that will make Honoka's fastest pokes whiff (P, 6P), 6K can still connect but gets beaten by 9 frames jabs. It could be used against a wall but if it hits you can't really follow up with a wall juggle. It still can be useful against slower character I guess.

Regarding 214P+K, it's imo the most effective out of these 4 moves since it stuns instead of knocking back on hit, though the drawback is the really short range, thus it can't be exactly used with any stun if you don't want it to whiff. It can actually be blocked (always assuming they're stagger escaping on fastest) only after the following stuns : BT4P, 9PPKP, 6P, 6K, 4K and 3K (cancelling Dokuritsu-Ho).
If they didn't stagger escape fast enough you could keep going with the offense (stuns/throws), if they attempt to press a button after successufully stagger escaping they'll get stunned again, and of course if they just block you're at +1.

The thing with 4H+K and 1H+K is that their main purpose is to serve as a reminder that I have these moves at my disposal too. Sure the best two are obvious 8H+K and 214P+K but that leaves only two options for the guardbreak thing but bringing 4H+K and 1H+K into the mix (especially against walls). And after 4H+K, 9frame jabs whiff too so if you think they are mashing that out just hang back for a minute, and whiff punish.

I see a lot of potential in this type of situation, I personally have a really hard time trying to weave it into my normal play and switching up tactics (tick-throwing, guardbreaking, or just playing the stun system) based on how a opponent is reacting. An issue of auto-piloting, hence my hesitation to bring it up until I had solid evidence of it being a good option.

Always against stagger escaping opponents, you could even use 7P, but since it's a 30 frames move it requires deeper stuns (3P, 3KP, Heichu P....) and your opponent has to be near a wall to take full advantage of it.
I had something in mind with 7P but I didn't test it yet in a real match.

I hadn't thought of 7P since I dislike the start up, but against the wall that does sound amazing, since it actually has guarantee's then.

Wait, do you mean another move here? 3H+K is not a guardbreak and it's -4 on block.

Thanks for catching that! I meant 8H+K!

 

[Nikotsumi]

Cannot find anything new..... however, here's something not really useful, but hilarious I noticed about the infamous shoulder and Minuet, due to me shoulder-panicking as soon as I hear Marie jumping. I regret nothing and I'm gonna keep doing this lol.
Da shoulder can always "evade" Marie's Minuet P+K (as long as timed right and only at close range) resulting in switching sides, and guaranteeing a BT combo. The good thing is that you have to input the shoulder earlier than the booty bump (just when MR lands on the ground) for this to work, so if she decides to go for a BT option she'll get launched, even if she decides to go for the BT OH (since like I said, you should input the shoulder earlier).
The negative side is that the shoulder can still get blocked after Minuet.

Short demonstration :

Of course, it works with Leifang's shoulder too, though I noticed that Leifang's tends to HIC launch Marie out of her Minuet P+K more, instead of "evading" it and switching sides like Honoka's always does. Perhaps it's due to the different hitbox/reach, dunno.

 

[CookingMama]

That is really cool Nikotsumi!! I have found a few random things myself. Trying to just figure out a lot of random things.

Booty bump spookyness: I saw a Lisa do this at Winter Brawl and it works for Honoka too. If you have an opponent against the wall you can do whatever stun that leads into BT and then do the booty bump to phase through them and get some BT stuff going. When it happened there seemed to be a bit of a chance of Honoka being BTed herself behind the opponent. I didn't look too much into it so just be careful. Seems good so far though for the 6PK launch on BTed people. The important part is the opponent needs to be stunned to have the booty bump go through them.

1P: I have just looking for ways Honoka can weave more force techs into her game. Kinda gimmicky but at max threshold 1P causes a hard knockdown. Also, two 1Ps in stun is also a hard knockdown. I kinda find the two 1P kinda neat since you can land 1P at a distance and then 1P again (not really the first thing people are thinking you're going to do right?) and then force them up and now you are in their face for +19 or whatever.

8H+K: Linking this back to my guard break post before. If you hit the opponent with this it is considered a hard knockdown and 3H+K forces them up. Kinda cool!

And some character match related things:

After Bass's reset throws 214P+K trolls him and crushes a weird amount of his options. I play the best Bass semi-regularly offline and it phased out some of his go-to options. Mainly his while rising P+K (I think...) that is a guardbreak.

After Mila's 6T shoulder will beat 66K. That seems to be a pretty common tactic for Mila's (6T > K > 66K), so this is good to shut them down.

Honoka can shoulder the mid from Kokoro's 3K string (I think it is 3K4K). Weirdly enough shoulder loses to the high but the high is 5T punishable (or just get the read and duck/33P). I'm not sure if that would apply to Naotora's 4K4K string too since the Kokoro crush is based on distance (Honoka moves back just enough so the kick whiffs).

Just a few things! I am trying to look for more weird things like this for Honoka or match-up specific things. She has a lot going on that I don't think many people have looked into.

 

[Nikotsumi]

That is really cool Nikotsumi!! I have found a few random things myself. Trying to just figure out a lot of random things.
Booty bump spookyness: I saw a Lisa do this at Winter Brawl and it works for Honoka too. If you have an opponent against the wall you can do whatever stun that leads into BT and then do the booty bump to phase through them and get some BT stuff going. When it happened there seemed to be a bit of a chance of Honoka being BTed herself behind the opponent. I didn't look too much into it so just be careful. Seems good so far though for the 6PK launch on BTed people. The important part is the opponent needs to be stunned to have the booty bump go through them.

Oh yeah, I saw that Lisa booty bump gimmick ahahahaha. I was able to reproduce it just a few times with Honoka though, and she never ended being BTed, guess you can only do a quick guaranteed launch then, like 6PK/33K/8K.
The problem is getting Honoka BTed in the first place near wall, and keeping the opponent stunned, considering all of her moves except for Bokuho 4P, cause a wall-splat or launch.
Overall she doesn't have reliable moves to go for BT mix ups, which really is a shame since I consider her BT moves to be really good, you just have (on block) 236H+K, Bokuho 4P and arguably 9PPP to go for BT mix ups.

The rest is really interesting, didn't know about a lot of that MU-related stuff, definitely gonna check those later.

 

[CookingMama]

Oh yeah, I saw that Lisa booty bump gimmick ahahahaha. I was able to reproduce it just a few times with Honoka though, and she never ended being BTed, guess you can only do a quick guaranteed launch then, like 6PK/33K/8K.
The problem is getting Honoka BTed in the first place near wall, and keeping the opponent stunned, considering all of her moves except for Bokuho 4P, cause a wall-splat or launch.
Overall she doesn't have reliable moves to go for BT mix ups, which really is a shame since I consider her BT moves to be really good, you just have (on block) 236H+K, Bokuho 4P and arguably 9PPP to go for BT mix ups.

The rest is really interesting, didn't know about a lot of that MU-related stuff, definitely gonna check those later.

I think we can put it in the category of random shit you bring out when you need to fuck with someone and they don't know the match up. In that category now is the 236P+K force techs (either the one from the HnK throw or the 6P > 6P one) and doing shoulder full screen and baiting someone to come in and booty bumping them, lmao. Useful once and then never again. I'd also maybe put 6K2K (counter hit) > dragon kick in there. It causes a cool camera-switch deal which is neat. Though 46P is the better move to abuse there but why not give them a kick in the face once in a while.

 

[Nikotsumi]

doing shoulder full screen and baiting someone to come in and booty bumping them, lmao. Useful once and then never again.

I see best tactic right here LOOOOL

 

[synce]

Anyone know which DLC pack this is from?

 

[HHH816]

newcomer pack

 

[Nikotsumi]

So, I wanted to talk about the "stance cancelling" concept, which imo is a really important aspect of Honoka's offensive/stun game, and I don't recall seeing a Honoka player doing it. I use to cancel stances into other stuff before because I liked it lol, but now I've looked it up in details.
First of all, why would you cancel a stance? Mainly because Honoka has many stance and she can't do everything in those, for example let's say you're in Dokuritsu-Ho stance and wanna use something she doesn't have in that stance (a low or a high launcher), just cancel the stance by pressing H and go for 8K/1P/2K or whatever.

Only Dokuritsu-Ho and Bokuho stance can be cancelled, though this doesn't mean you can't "cancel" other stances as well, just wait for their animation to end. Keep in mind that you can also cancel when you wanna do an attack that it's on the same hit level as a stance follow up. For example, let's say you do 8P and instead of going for Heichu P+K, you wait for the animation to end and go for a 6P, if the opponent opponent wanted to hold Heichu P+K, he'll get hit by your 6P, without resetting the stun threshold, since holds extened the stun duration and the timing to hold Heichu P+K and 6P is different. So, if he wants to hold Heichu P+K he'll get hit by 6P and vice versa.

Also, keep in mind that you want to do this if you're being held a lot or if your opponent likes to throw out holds like crazy, do not do this if your opponent stagger escapes. However is some situations, like for example in 8P case, none of Heichu options can be slow escaped (even if delayed) so it's likely your opponent will try to hold you.
There also some cases in which even if the opponent slow escapes, you can freely cancel the stance without losing the offence, for example Dokuritsu-Ho from 3K into a quick move (P/6P), or from Bokuho K into slower moves.

Here's what stance can be cancelled into, depending on the move you used as a stance transition (and assuming the holds of your opponent are timed to catch a stance follow up) :

-Heichu (29 frames animation)
8P > 18f or faster move.
66P+K > 20f or faster.

-Dokuritsu-Ho - can be cancelled by pressing H (10 frames).
3K > Everything. By everything I mean a 22 frames move or faster, since Honoka's slowest move to keep the opponent stunned is a 22 frames move (214P+K).
BKO K > Everything

-Bokuho - can be cancelled by pressing H (10 frames) or 8 (12 frames).
PP2K (on CH/HiC) > Everything
214P+K > Everything

-Christie's roll (25 frames)
DHO 4K P+K > 13f or faster.

-Ducking
PP2 > P/6P
4K2 > P

-Carrera (66K6), this one is weird, I've come up with different things, so I'd recommend to go for a quick poke or just go for a running option. Also, on block, if you just tap 6 (do not run much) you can still keep the +6 advantage without necessarily doing a running move.

-Dragon Stance cannot be cancelled into anything and has long ass animation/active frames (35~f).

-Hissatsu no Kamae stance has 55~ active frames/animation, there's not a proper way to cancel it, but if you do a throw (HnK T/2T) you'll recover about 20~ frames faster. I do not recommend to "cancel" it since it will always leaves you at disadvantage, which depends on the move you used as stance transition. The only cases in which you can cancel it safely is after BT PP (-4 w/o stagger escape) or with moves that cause a "crumple" stun. But nah, just don't cancel it unless you wanna catch your opponent off guard, but it's still not worth it since all the option from this stance are extremely dangerous.

You also have the option to cancel stances into a throw (free hugs!), so don't forget that lol.
On block there are only two moves that leave Honoka in a stance and at advantage, 236P+K and 214P+K so keep in mind you can still throw in these cases despite not having a DKG or BKO T (again, free hugs!).

 

[CookingMama]

In the case of the Brad Wong stance it is almost 90% better to just do the move on the hit level they didn't hold. Either H+K or P. If they hold mid you do H+K and if they are hold happy they eat the HnK throws, if they hold high or low just do P and get the free launch.

I only ever really do this from BKO or ducking, since they are kinda "fast". And even from my experience people now know that Honoka has no lows and barely anything to fear from her BKO stance on block and madly 2P me on reaction to crush the high since they don't fear the P much. On stun though I probably do it a lot more. I still like using BKO a lot though.

OH, but stance cancelling is almost a must from running stance because people have learned you can slap Honoka away super easy. If you got someone who doesn't have the knowledge ram through them but people I face, know better and just do some mid to slap her out of anything.

 

[CookingMama]

So I opened up a youtube channel for Honoka tech and videos. I have a few things I wanna put on there but here is my first little video. It showcases how Honoka can punish Kasumi's 6PK which normally is safe due to pushback!

Some of the things I found is a trap with Honoka's CB, and a way to force tech with 236P+K that actually leaves Honoka BT and + like 30 while being semi-safe if the opponent techs!

 

[CookingMama]

Alrightie! So I got around to recording some stuff!

The first thing here is this 3P+K situation. It causes a crumple stun so if they don't hold they fall right on the ground. Well we pull a makeshift Eliot and force them up with 1K! If you whiff either a standing or crouching throw you have enough time to force them back up with 1K if they refuse to hold. You can also just go straight into a stun or launch too. Instant holding can defeat this setup but everything has a weakness.

3P+K also crushes jabs on quite a bit of the cast. There doesn't seem to be much of a rhyme or reason to it, I thought it'd be height but that isn't it. Some notable people it beats are: Christie, Gen Fu, Lei Fang, Bass, Akira, Sarah, and Jacky. And people it does not work on are: Kasumis, Ayane, and I think Mila... I need to make a chart and go through this again.

The other stuff I looked at is unholdables so I am going to post all that in the unholdable thread, its a lot of good stuff!

 

[TRI Mike]

What would you guys change on her in a sequel¿ I think I mentioned this like a year or so ago but I truly believe she'd be much, much better if she could actually chose when to change stances instead of the transitions being tied to whether the move hits or not. This is specially annoying with Hissatsu, Heichu and Dragon Stance (because Ducking, Dokuritsu and Bokuho transitions are controlled by the player). Sometimes I wanna do 8P or PPP without changing stances and it's annoying because she'll do it no matter what.

 

[Nikotsumi]

Well, I think her stance transitions are fine right now, I mean she wouldn't be much better with it honestly, you can still play the stun game fine. What would help her is being able to stance transition on block, but that's another story lol.

Though, of course, it wouldn't hurt having full control over them, like pressing 4 for Dragon Stance, P+K for Heichu and P+K for Hissatsu to have more freedom in the stun game.
In my experience, when I do not want to do a Heichu follow up, I just wait for the stance animation to end a do something else (works fine), so is not really a problem in this case, though for Hissatsu and especially Dragon Stance it's kinda annoying because of their long animations :
- In Hissatsu no Kamae you have access to throws, thus you could use them offensively or even to "cancel" the animation, however you'll lose the offense and be left at negative when the throw whiffs. (it depends on the move used before)
- Dragon Stance is the worst because you don't have throws and you're basically forced to do a follow up, the fact that DS 4P is not a viable option (imo) doesn't help either because this way the opponent has a 50% chance of holding you (mid K, high), going agaist Honoka's strongest point, which is mix-up. So yeah, Dragon Stance is the stance I use the least.

I think they designed her moveset and playstyle to make the player use her unique stance as much as possible, which can be done only by using another stance as a "bridge". This would explain why certain stance transitions are forced.