Balance The Karate Master

[Tenryuga]

H+K is a tracking mid... just to damn slow. If you meant RELIABLE tracking mid (most likely you did) then yeah... he has none lolol

I was thinkin mid punch lol

 

[Nereus]

I was thinkin mid punch lol

yea the only tracking midpunch he has is 6P+K.... which is WAYYYYYY too slow to be reliable lol

 

[TakedaZX]

6P+K doesn't track. It could never track. P+K could either.

H+K isn't that bad on speed but for the range it is, 15i is incredibly overkill. Like come on guys, that's crazy.

Anyway Ten... I'm definitly feeling all of those. You left out 3K though. I really think it should get the NH stun to make him a bit more deadly on NH and a deeper stun on CH+ with him to cause a 2 in 1 for 3KK. Considering the juggles possible off of it (CH or Stun to launch = PP6PK, HCH/Max Threshold = 3P, 6KK), it won't be the greatest thing to hit the earth as a 2 in 1. This will work out and with the deeper stun, he'll be able to link up his better launchers at the cost of the guaranteed damage. Textbook risk vs reward. Obviously, 3K2K is something I'd want as well to track someone down.

P+K will need a more obvious animation so that people can see it coming as easily as 6P+K.

6P should 6PP like Hayate could in DOA5. Something else I can see is hard cancels for his guard breaks (PP[P]H, 6P[P]H, P+K[P]H, 4[P+K]H). The hard cancel would simply set him back to neutral so that he doesn't have to worry about getting held out all of the time. This would balance him with Hayate in the respects that he gets better advantage off of his but he remains in front of his opponent. Also the guard breaks could remain as slow as they are because there's barely commitment.

The deal 2H+K needs to come across to multiple characters... Hayate, Hayabusa (so long as he gets his 2H+KK series back), Hitomi is fine but... I wouldn't mind seeing the pressure of the trip stun, Jann Lee, Even Kasumi. Pressure.

Last but not least, PP4P. Something I've been messing around with in my head. Safe tracking hook that stuns lightly on NH and on CH+ it'll be a stun deep enough for 3P/4K/4H+K (i.e. +16).

 

[Zeo]

H+K isn't that bad on speed but for the range it is, 15i is incredibly overkill. Like come on guys, that's crazy.

There are definitely crazier tracking moves with retarded followups. But we already talked about this. It's not the range that would make the move deadly at that speed. i14 6P+K was essentially the same range in DOA4 and is still the same range in 5U. It's the tracking, safety and potential followups that make the move superior. And even then i15 may be a bit much but I think i16 would be fair. If Ein was improved in areas already addressed however, he wouldn't particularly need this change.

Anyway Ten... I'm definitly feeling all of those. You left out 3K though. I really think it should get the NH stun to make him a bit more deadly on NH and a deeper stun on CH+ with him to cause a 2 in 1 for 3KK. Considering the juggles possible off of it (CH or Stun to launch = PP6PK, HCH/Max Threshold = 3P, 6KK), it won't be the greatest thing to hit the earth as a 2 in 1. This will work out and with the deeper stun, he'll be able to link up his better launchers at the cost of the guaranteed damage. Textbook risk vs reward. Obviously, 3K2K is something I'd want as well to track someone down.

Pretty much agree with this as said before. Not a deep stun but a good enough stun on NH and 2-in-1 status It should have had from the get go. 3K2K would be a nice way to catch steppers and it would be a good way to get people to fuzzy and clip them with the launch followup as well. I approve.

P+K will need a more obvious animation so that people can see it coming as easily as 6P+K.

P+K's animation could easily be altered to look more menacing. Ein's putting a bit more of force behind his elbow slam, add a bit of wind effect to it and give a little more energy into the blow and you're golden. Don't want to accidentally do the followup? Don't mash, end of story.

6P should 6PP like Hayate could in DOA5. Something else I can see is hard cancels for his guard breaks (PP[P]H, 6P[P]H, P+K[P]H, 4[P+K]H). The hard cancel would simply set him back to neutral so that he doesn't have to worry about getting held out all of the time. This would balance him with Hayate in the respects that he gets better advantage off of his but he remains in front of his opponent. Also the guard breaks could remain as slow as they are because there's barely commitment.

Going to pass on 6PP, Hayate's followups with the exception of 1K2K should remain his own in that vein. It would be inferior regardless without the charge and with the charge it would just make him another Hayate. Even if he's a better character Ein's variants should have their own properties and unique roles in his gameplan. I'd vote 6P just be given frame trap status. +1 on block. +2 would be a bit too overkill for a 14 frame move even if it's a high. So +1.

As for the guard break cancels? I'm all for it.

The deal 2H+K needs to come across to multiple characters... Hayate, Hayabusa (so long as he gets his 2H+KK series back), Hitomi is fine but... I wouldn't mind seeing the pressure of the trip stun, Jann Lee, Even Kasumi. Pressure.

Might have to pass on 2H+K if it would be implemented across the board. If characters like Kasumi, Lei-Fang, Christie etc got those trip stuns back with their speed and options things would get a bit too ridiculous. One of the biggest complaints about Helena in this game is how easily she opens up her opponents with her large stun NH lows. Adding something like that across the board would be too overkill and hurt balance more than it helps it.

Ein is one of the slightly slower characters and doesn't excel at close range. Characters in that vein (Bayman, Leon, Bass, maybe Tina, etc) would be fine to get decent stuns on their lows but characters like Jann Lee, Rig, Hayate, Hitomi getting those options would ultimately give them yet another step above the slower characters.

I would apply the trip stun to either a select few characters, just Ein, or not at all. Because let's face it, Hayate doesn't exactly need that stun as much as Ein does.

Last but not least, PP4P. Something I've been messing around with in my head. Safe tracking hook that stuns lightly on NH and on CH+ it'll be a stun deep enough for 3P/4K/4H+K (i.e. +16).

Eeehh, gonna pass on this one as well. While a tracking stun option from PP would be nice, a short range high just wouldn't cut it. People are already used to crushing Ein's PP6P so chances are whatever move they'll use to interrupt you will be a crushing move. Only thing they have to fear is what? PPP? PP2K? Who cares?

I'd vote a tracking mid or simply a mid followup that stunned at all. Though I don't see either of those happening. I'd rather focus on things that could be changed without much effort on TN's part. Those things are a bit more realistic.

 

[Tenryuga]

I don't think the tracking mid followup is unrealistic. I believe Jaycee mentioned making one of the hits of 4P mid? That could be the hit that is included part of the string. It could be safe and have a light stun. PPP can get it's charge speed buffed and advantage reduced to +3-4 at most and remain unsafe.

As for making 3KK a 2 in 1 and 8P a sitdown stun I agree. Though to make 8P a sitdown stun we must not allow 33K to be the followup launcher because if that is the case CH 3P, 8P, 33K into 3P PP6PK is going to hit 97 damage...at stun to launch. No other character hits that hard at stun to launch off a mid. If we make it so that the stun only allows us to use 13i 4K we can get 88 points if I'm not mistaken which is better because he gets 89 points off of his WRK so it is within reasonable damage range. A 2 in 1 3KK nets us 85 at stun to launch (consistent on all but heavyweights and Gen Fu which needs to be addressed). I believe all these numbers are reasonable and justifiable for stun to launch as Ein.

Leave H+K alone. We are giving Ein multiple lows and strengthening his close combat and stun game to an small extent. His H+K is intended to be used during situations he has enough frame advantage to use it or at space. Extra speed would be nice but it's a want not a need.

By the way to balance out 1KK being safe and having pushback we should not allow the followup K to bounce on counterhit. Only in stun. We are making many suggestions to improve Ein so we have to be prepared to balance things out so it doesn't look like we are just simply trying to make him better than the rest of the cast when in actuality we just seek to make him efficient. I say we give it an untechable knockdown. Also what was the verdict on the advantage from the low?

 

[TakedaZX]

There are definitely crazier tracking moves with retarded followups. But we already talked about this. It's not the range that would make the move deadly at that speed. i14 6P+K was essentially the same range in DOA4 and is still the same range in 5U. It's the tracking, safety and potential followups that make the move superior. And even then i15 may be a bit much but I think i16 would be fair. If Ein was improved in areas already addressed however, he wouldn't particularly need this change.

I still think 16i is a bit much. Somethinig like Hayate's 4P deserves 16. H+K is superior to that in safety, range, and recovery (because it doesn't leave him BT like Hayate). It matches Hayate's 4P in speed and anti-crushability.

4P has room to be sped up, even with its follow ups.

H+K will do as is, if anything make H+KK a mid and change the leg placement.... but even then that's not necessary. The fact that it's as ranged as it is enough for it to not change in speed, no matter what way you look at it.

Pretty much agree with this as said before. Not a deep stun but a good enough stun on NH and 2-in-1 status It should have had from the get go. 3K2K would be a nice way to catch steppers and it would be a good way to get people to fuzzy and clip them with the launch followup as well. I approve.

I think it's pretty fair at +15 on highest SE. At that point all he gets is DOA4 4K (if he doesn't go for 3KK) which only really goes into 6KK. Other options are P and 3P so he has true stun game somewhat. 3K isn't 6P+K so whiff punishing with it won't be as common as 6P+K but maybe a little more common than with 4K.

Going to pass on 6PP, Hayate's followups with the exception of 1K2K should remain his own in that vein. It would be inferior regardless without the charge and with the charge it would just make him another Hayate. Even if he's a better character Ein's variants should have their own properties and unique roles in his gameplan. I'd vote 6P just be given frame trap status. +1 on block. +2 would be a bit too overkill for a 14 frame move even if it's a high. So +1.

As for the guard break cancels? I'm all for it.

Lets be honest. 9PP for Hayate isn't some special mugen tenshin ninja punch technique... it is a straight punch. I've told you a few times before about my "hand me down" mindset between Ein and Hayate and this is the best way for Hayate to pass the torch, plus Ein's 6P has the properties Hayate players want (6P doesn't wall splat and retains all of the properties of safety). At that point he's got a 2 in 1 wall splat that Hayate only gets when slightly away from the wall. This also gives Ein a nice push out 2 in 1 to play around with. The guard break hard cancel would only help it and since it'd be like +8 or +5 on guard like the others, it'd be a tough move to run against.

With Hayate, I told you that he loses 9PP in change for a good new set of strings which would help his stun game a bit. He'll still retain a deep high punch stun in a way but that's another topic for another time.

Might have to pass on 2H+K if it would be implemented across the board. If characters like Kasumi, Lei-Fang, Christie etc got those trip stuns back with their speed and options things would get a bit too ridiculous. One of the biggest complaints about Helena in this game is how easily she opens up her opponents with her large stun NH lows. Adding something like that across the board would be too overkill and hurt balance more than it helps it.

Ein is one of the slightly slower characters and doesn't excel at close range.

I would apply the trip stun to either a select few characters, just Ein, or not at all. Because let's face it, Hayate doesn't exactly need that stun as much as Ein does.

Agreed, though Kasumi's 1K opens up on NH anyway. Even in DOA4 though, I don't remember her 4P2K, 6P2K, or 3P2K being a strong enough stun to land even 6P on... (without SE), but maybe that's just me, I'll check soon. Helena's is a special case. It's linear so it deserves to force you to hold to stop BKO 6P. It just so happens that the sidestep in DOA is so bad that a mistimed SS = being clipped and caught in the mix-up.

With Hayate I'll settle for him stealing Ryu's 46T HCT properties. More advantage, free 3K or free 3PP on BT which = a guaranteed launch, and then there's a solid mix-up

Eeehh, gonna pass on this one as well. While a tracking stun option from PP would be nice, a short range high just wouldn't cut it. People are already used to crushing Ein's PP6P so chances are whatever move they'll use to interrupt you will be a crushing move. Only thing they have to fear is what? PPP? PP2K? Who cares?

I'd vote a tracking mid or simply a mid followup that stunned at all. Though I don't see either of those happening. I'd rather focus on things that could be changed without much effort on TN's part. Those things are a bit more realistic.

The hook is mid. I told you this last night.

By the way to balance out 1KK being safe and having pushback we should not allow the followup K to bounce on counterhit. Only in stun. We are making many suggestions to improve Ein so we have to be prepared to balance things out so it doesn't look like we are just simply trying to make him better than the rest of the cast when in actuality we just seek to make him efficient. I say we give it an untechable knockdown. Also what was the verdict on the advantage from the low?

1KK having pushback doesn't mean he gets to retain his offense. At -2 (or even -1) most of the time he'll have to back off. It's also linear so unless 1K2K is thrown out, everything else is being taken care of for the most part.

The bounce can and should stay.

1K2K for him should be treated just as 2H+K, H+K2K, 66P2K, and 4PP2K would be. If it's a juicy sweep, he should have it. If not, it'll just be frame advantage as usual.

 

[Tenryuga]

I just feel like all the things we are doing to 1K would make it too good. That's why I suggested removing the bounce on CH and keep it in stun. PP4P should get the punch at the end of 4PPP as well as the sweep. As for 4P changes check it out:

4PPP - launching

4PPK - bouncing

4P2KP - launching

4P2KK - bouncing

4P2K6PK - If my suggestion is granted this is bounding due to thresh break.

4P2K6P2K - Chance at stun game on NH.

4P2K6PP - Crit level 3 and crumple stun at that. So hold right or take big damage.

4P2K2K - Chance at stun game on NH.

And at any point during these we can stop and try to get a 99 DMG (which should be 105 DMG) grab during stun. 66 to 70 on NH.

I support changing the 2nd hit of 4PP to mid and I support him getting Hitomi status on it. This would severely increase our reward for reading SS attempts. That's why I feel granting the second hit a good stun is not needed. I feel Eins stun game works as follows:

1. Stun to launch.

2. Blitzing through the threshold with 1K mixups.

3. Mixing up between strike or grab on light stuns. This is why 1K6P is good.

We have deep stuns in 6P and 3P and a sufficient stun on 3K should we choose to not opt for the 2 in 1. Also 6P+K being i14 means we can use it as a mid punch crumple stun during the stun game. I think we're good without any more stuns lol.

 

[TakedaZX]

I think I said this earlier, but I'm not exactly for Hayate picking up Hitomi's 8P series fully beyond 8PKK. Only other string for 4P that I'd give him is 4P2K2K. Straight to the point, no bullshit so that he can check mid sidestep. If 4PP goes mid though, 4P2K2K won't be needed.

My reasoning (btw) is that 8PK6PK has become some what of a unique juggle to Hitomi sorta like how PP4PPP and 4KPPPP/P+KPP. Ein carries things like:

• 4H+K, 1K6PK (Basically 8PK6PK counterpart)
• WR K, 66KKK or 6K, 6KK (Basically 4KK, [Ender Here] counterpart)
• 3KK, 6KK or PPP (PP6PK in DOA4 Only) (Basically 7PK, [Ender Here] counterpart)

I wouldn't wan to give those away, just like Hitomi players probably wouldn't want to give up their identity by giving away a string that's unique to her even if hers is high.

As for the PP4P idea, it's kind of an leaning hybrid between a hook and an uppercut like Akihiko does in P4A. I think you should know what I mean Ten... but I don't know how much of him you've seen/played. The reason I haven't put a follow up behind it is because I'm trying not to lose his normal BnB's in the process cause it sounded like you wanted PP4P2K... which this one makes sense but I wouln't want to take the chance of out damaging PP6PK at all cost.

 

[Tenryuga]

Right. That's fair too because if we did give him all those things that string would be way too rewarding on hit. And I know what you are talking about. Like I said anything is better than nothing. Personally all I want is tracking and 14i 6P+K 13i 4K, better damage on 66T and 33T and more advantage on his traps. This other stuff is icing on the cake to me so you guys can suggest whatever and I'll accept it. Ill only say something if I feel it's unbalanced or too strong.

 

[TakedaZX]

In addition to those things, I'd be satisfied with a better NH and CH+ stun for 3K to give him more solid stun game as well as 1KK's guard break for -2. New strings? Not exactly necessary but PP4P, 6PP (with the guard break), 6K2K, 3K2K,, and 1K2K are welcomed. On the side, 4PP as a high mid would be useful.

The thing about Ein's guard breaks is while they're kinda 5.02 status on speed, they're far superior on advantage. Giving them the hard cancel would help a lot, forcing them to deal with disadvantage major.

Last but not least... mechanical changes that will help him... frame advantage on hit and the games gravity being decreased back to Vanilla status... I could go on for hours about ideas.

 

[JayceeChris]

Personally all I want is tracking and 14i 6P+K 13i 4K, better damage on 66T and 33T and more advantage on his traps. This other stuff is icing on the cake to me so you guys can suggest whatever and I'll accept it. Ill only say something if I feel it's unbalanced or too strong.

Alright so the first location test has started today and most of us agree with those changes/adds. How to let TN know about those suggestions ?

 

[Tenryuga]

The only way I know of is to blast Team Ninja's twitter once we compose a list.

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

What Tenryuga said, Tweet to to TN and hope it doesn't fall under the 1 million request for Rachel/Marie Rose/X Character here getting long hair, X costume or X swimsuit haha.

 

[TakedaZX]

I could alter my blog post and we could blast TN the list. The mandatory changes would be labeled. Quick link to get it all across.

 

[JayceeChris]

Hey I left TN a quick tweet about Ein. Can you guys retweet it ? It would be really appreciated.
#BuffEin

https://twitter.com/JayceeChris3/status/402208267566186496

 

[Tenryuga]

How about we take Eins back turned moves and make ALL of them available standalone? We already have BT P as 46P and BT 2K stuff as 1K. In addition to Zeos 236 H+K how about BT 4P as 66P+K? Stats would be around the same at 20ish frames and +4. I also vouch for it as running P+K.

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

Is BT 4P really worth it though? I have yet to see anyone actually use it, most people just use BT 7K or BT 5P.

 

[TakedaZX]

I don't think BT 4P is worth it. It's basically 4P+K without having to wait for the cock back because he's already got the headstart by being in BT.

 

[Tenryuga]

Alright. If there aren't anymore suggestions we should compose the final list.

 

[Zeo]

Alright then. I'm not doing the actual tweet but I'll list the changes and number them. Everyone that agrees or disagrees put "Yes" or "No" next to the number in your response. (IE 1 - No. 2 - Yes.) What we all agree on should be what's in the final list and sent. Keep in mind this colossal list is a combination of everyone's ideas so don't be expected to say yes to everything.

1 - 6P+K - i14
2 - 4K - i13
3 - P+K - Given CB status.
4 - PP (Charge) P - 27 frame charge, +5 GB on block.
5 - 8P - SDS on CH, bound at threshold.
6 - 1KK - safe GB (-4) on block. Added pushback.
7 - *New Move* - 1K2K (Low > tracking low string.)
8 - 46K - +3 GB on block.
9 - 236K - +5 on block.
10 - 7K - Unholdable.
11 - 2H+K and string variants - CH properties applied to NH. (+16 trip stun on NH)
12 - 4PP - First punch damage increased to 23 on CH and second punch made a mid.
13 - 9P - Added relaunch properties.
14 - 9PK - Neutral GB on block.
15 - 3P - True mid status, uncrushable.
16 - 66PK - Added tracking, Bound status on threshold.
17 - 3H+K - +4 GB on Block.
18 - BT 4P - i18
19 - BT 1P - +1 on NH.
20 - KK - Added sidestep tracking.
21A - 3K - +17 stun on NH, +24 stun on CH
21B - 3K - +24 stun on NH & CH.
22 - 3KK - Added 2-in-1 status.
23 - *New Move* - 3K2K: 3K into 2H+K string.
24 - 7P - +16 GB on block.
25 - *New Move* - 214H+K - Standalone variant of BT 7K: Mid K, i23, +2 GB on block, unholdable, tech jumping. Same properties as BT 7K on hit.
26 - *New Move* - Running H+K - Running variant of 214H+K: i21 and all other properties of 214H+K.
27 - Hitomi's 8P Series.
27A - 4P2KK
27B - 4P2K6PP
27C - 4P2K6PK
27D - 4P2K6P2K
28 - 66F+P - OH damage increased by 10 points across the board.
29 - *New Move* - 1P: i15 tracking low punch. -1 on NH, Same properties as BT 1P on CH and block.
30 - 6P - +1 on block.
31 - *New Move* - 6K2K: 6K into 1K string, low is +5 on NH and same properties as 1K on CH and block.

Finally.

32A - 6KK - i12 6K.

32B - 6KK - i12 6K, given 2-in-1 status.

32C - 6KK - i12 6K, safe/semi-safe on block.

32D - 6KK - i13 6K, Followup given SDS on NH, bound on CH.

32E - 6KK - i13 6K, Followup given bound on NH and CH.

32F - 6KK - i13 6K, given 2-in-1 status, bound only on CH.

32G - 6KK - i13 6K, given 2-in-1 status, safe/semi-safe on block.


Take your time and think about it, it's a long list. Someone can comprise the final list once everyone's gotten their verdict in.