My dream is a training mode that's a combination of Melty, SG, and DOA. Lab like a king.
DOA5U What Should be Done with the Ground Game?
- Thread starter deathofaninja
- Start date
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
Bingo! Yet, that part of the game is not that simple either. If not, why do so many rely on it? That's the "simplicity" explained in my earlier argument! (Btw, for any fighting game, one does not need a fortress of knowledge to be able to play. Some like learning as they play too! This goes to the post regarding training mode)
You don't need a fortress of knowledge to play any fighting game. I just mash buttons until I see something working.
You will find VF heads would disagree with you, because at a lower level, both engines have very similar if not the same mechanics with different scaling.
OHs in this game are not meant to be used for damage and more for conditioning outside of a few examples with characters with game plans based around those kind of mixups (Bayman and Lisa for example and Jann Lee to a certain extend).
Making a catch throw where a character throws their whole weight on you to stop a strike breakable is pointless. There are some command throws and catches in Tekken which are not breakable too.
Most of those examples you mentioned can be fuzzied or reacted to since generally anything slower that 20 frames can be seen and blocked/crouched.
If you're having trouble against OHs, I really suggest getting used to seeing their start up animations.
I don't need a lecture. I'm perfectly familiar with their application and function and this superficial overview you have provided does nothing to address the real meat of what I was getting at.
Hey, don't think I'm trying to be a condescending prick. I try to be informative in case if someone else is also reading the post as isn't aware, because I've noticed a lot of people are a bit ignorant. What is the real issue, you think? Because I don't see that much of an issue.
But hey, if you don't feel like hearing what I gotta say, then we can stop right away. We're cool.
I don't think OHs should be throw breakable, if a throw break system gets implemented. Primary reason is because throws not only beat an OH at any point in its frames, it's the reason why Virtua Fighter's catch throws are not throw breakable as well. In addition, unlike VF, you eat 150% damage if your OH is thrown.
Now back to the discussion about the ground game that with the previously secret discovery of Unholdables returning, the ground game has interesting layers being added to it.
Now back to the discussion about the ground game that with the previously secret discovery of Unholdables returning, the ground game has interesting layers being added to it.
Yeah, already been hard at work finding Ayane and Momiji's unholdables. These add a greater layer to the okizeme during moments of opponent players teching up. Not only do unholable add another layer to techable situations, but they also give you another option that strips opponents of one (the hold). They have to guess your strike/throw mix ups during oki as is, but it's very good against players that tech up into buttons (as is the rest of your strike options should be), trying to disrespect your oki. Or, trying to guess one with a hold.
Some characters may have some ending in frame advantage (if blocked but another knockdown or deeper stun if it hits). Or guard breaks, Requiem has found some very nifty, but viable stuff with Helena. I've gotten two of my better on block frame trap strikes into it, with some other things (like her 3H+K). And some with Momiji that'll leave her very safe if blocked.
Force techs on hard knockdowns, unholdables on teching up. I've liked 5U's ground game for awhile already, I'm enjoying it more now (the method for finding these things for unholdables was something I didn't know about).
Some characters may have some ending in frame advantage (if blocked but another knockdown or deeper stun if it hits). Or guard breaks, Requiem has found some very nifty, but viable stuff with Helena. I've gotten two of my better on block frame trap strikes into it, with some other things (like her 3H+K). And some with Momiji that'll leave her very safe if blocked.
Force techs on hard knockdowns, unholdables on teching up. I've liked 5U's ground game for awhile already, I'm enjoying it more now (the method for finding these things for unholdables was something I didn't know about).
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I think the primary reason I'm accepting of unholdables in the system is that there isn't a universal way for untechables in the current version. If it was both like DOA4 I'd have an issue with it, but between the two I think unholdables provide a deeper more varied layer of offense/defense than untechables do.
We won't find out though if it's a bug or not until the patch version with Nyotengu is released. Sadly, those who knew about the issue didn't tell others because either (1) They didn't want to see the false-complaints of OP in the community, (2) They didn't want to risk Team NINJA patching it out, or (3) They wanted to keep it for themselves.
I think the thought of holding the tech ended up hurting the community more than any of those three options. In the one week that the information has released, I've seen players react more positively to the game, and interest increased in dissecting how the technology changes the way their character plays. Sad to hear that if Manny discovers other tech in the future that he'll keep it to himself next time because the person who he told about it leaked it to others as well. Now, we have even less time with this tech due to the patch coming out relatively soon when, as Manny said he knew of it before DID10, we could have explored the tech for all of those weeks to see if it we as players felt it should be in left in. That would have been time to give Team NINJA a proper community response on our preference for keeping it or removing it. Sadly, I know of at least one person who knew of this tech sent it into Team NINJA under the idea it was a bug, so I know Team NINJA knows of the tech. I just don't know what they plan on doing with it.
We won't find out though if it's a bug or not until the patch version with Nyotengu is released. Sadly, those who knew about the issue didn't tell others because either (1) They didn't want to see the false-complaints of OP in the community, (2) They didn't want to risk Team NINJA patching it out, or (3) They wanted to keep it for themselves.
I think the thought of holding the tech ended up hurting the community more than any of those three options. In the one week that the information has released, I've seen players react more positively to the game, and interest increased in dissecting how the technology changes the way their character plays. Sad to hear that if Manny discovers other tech in the future that he'll keep it to himself next time because the person who he told about it leaked it to others as well. Now, we have even less time with this tech due to the patch coming out relatively soon when, as Manny said he knew of it before DID10, we could have explored the tech for all of those weeks to see if it we as players felt it should be in left in. That would have been time to give Team NINJA a proper community response on our preference for keeping it or removing it. Sadly, I know of at least one person who knew of this tech sent it into Team NINJA under the idea it was a bug, so I know Team NINJA knows of the tech. I just don't know what they plan on doing with it.
synce
Well-Known Member
This unholdable business... I'm not understanding the hype but maybe I'm not undertanding unholdables either. Certain characters have specific moves that can't be held if the opponent decides to tech roll to the side and instantly hold? Who does that anyway?
Maybe because I'm a Rachel main but I learned to always tech back when knocked down - doesn't that defeat unholdables entirely? This seems only marginally useful if the opponent is against a wall, but since they're not called unblockables I'm guessing a simple block defeats this too. And wake up kicks.
Maybe because I'm a Rachel main but I learned to always tech back when knocked down - doesn't that defeat unholdables entirely? This seems only marginally useful if the opponent is against a wall, but since they're not called unblockables I'm guessing a simple block defeats this too. And wake up kicks.
No.
Teching back just makes your down state invincible, where all other techs have vulnerability during the startup frames of the tech.
Unholdables allow you the opportunity against players who mash teching while being juggled (not like it's difficult) to keep pressure by performing an attack that can only be guarded. So you are typically looking to use a mid attack that puts you in an advantaged situation on guard/hit/counter hit.
If the opponent attempts attacking after the tech, they lose to counter hit and are potentially put into the stun mix-up game, launched (to be juggled/knocked down), or knocked down again with the potential to perform another unholdable.
If the opponent attempts throwing after the tech, they lose to hi-counter hit and are potentially put into the stun mix-up game, launched (to be juggled/knocked down), or knocked down again with the potential to perform another unholdable.
If the opponent attempts to side step after the tech, they lose to counter hit, even if the attack was linear and are potentially put into the stun mix-up game, launched (to be juggled/knocked down), or knocked down again with the potential to perform another unholdable.
If the opponent attempts to defensive hold or parry after the tech, they lose to normal hit and are potentially put into the stun mix-up game, launched (to be juggled/knocked down), or knocked down again with the potential to perform another unholdable.
If the opponent attempts to guard, they guard the attack and are at guard disadvantage/advantage, unless the attack was an unblockable.
After a tech roll it takes 1 frame for the defensive hold and the side step evade to trigger their active frames. The attacker is able to guarantee an attack's active frame is on the opponent's hurt box if the attacker either forced the opponent up via a force tech, or knew the opponent would tech immediately after the juggle.
It's basically like a meaty attack on wake-up in Street Fighter.
Teching back just makes your down state invincible, where all other techs have vulnerability during the startup frames of the tech.
Unholdables allow you the opportunity against players who mash teching while being juggled (not like it's difficult) to keep pressure by performing an attack that can only be guarded. So you are typically looking to use a mid attack that puts you in an advantaged situation on guard/hit/counter hit.
If the opponent attempts attacking after the tech, they lose to counter hit and are potentially put into the stun mix-up game, launched (to be juggled/knocked down), or knocked down again with the potential to perform another unholdable.
If the opponent attempts throwing after the tech, they lose to hi-counter hit and are potentially put into the stun mix-up game, launched (to be juggled/knocked down), or knocked down again with the potential to perform another unholdable.
If the opponent attempts to side step after the tech, they lose to counter hit, even if the attack was linear and are potentially put into the stun mix-up game, launched (to be juggled/knocked down), or knocked down again with the potential to perform another unholdable.
If the opponent attempts to defensive hold or parry after the tech, they lose to normal hit and are potentially put into the stun mix-up game, launched (to be juggled/knocked down), or knocked down again with the potential to perform another unholdable.
If the opponent attempts to guard, they guard the attack and are at guard disadvantage/advantage, unless the attack was an unblockable.
After a tech roll it takes 1 frame for the defensive hold and the side step evade to trigger their active frames. The attacker is able to guarantee an attack's active frame is on the opponent's hurt box if the attacker either forced the opponent up via a force tech, or knew the opponent would tech immediately after the juggle.
It's basically like a meaty attack on wake-up in Street Fighter.
Maybe I'll lab around a bit before TN's upcoming patch
The stream is archived so you can still view it here: http://www.twitch.tv/omastero/profile/past_broadcasts (Aug 19). Since the stream was lagging the broadcasts are broken up into several videos.
You have no control of "how" your character techs after every knock down situation, keep that in mind. Certain strikes have different knock downs that do not allow you to tech up at your choosing when you instant tech.
Radiance
Well-Known Member
After messing around in training mode last night I managed to find a few for my characters. Haven't used training mode that long in a while =.=. It definitely does add a new layer of defense for the opponent knocked down. If you stay down you can be force teched, if you tech up (depending which way) you'll possibly be put into a unholdable situation. Of course the unholdable should be a move worth doing, or at least safe on block if you're opponent decides to block if he techs up
It'll be a real shame if these get patched out next month. This adds more potential to the ground game and there's still plenty more to be found.
It'll be a real shame if these get patched out next month. This adds more potential to the ground game and there's still plenty more to be found.
I've noticed a lot of moves that blow you back more than 3.00m only allow for one type of wake-up. Example I can think of are Ayane 236K and Bass 66K/66P+K. They only allow for one type of tech.
Correct, Ayane's 6P3 > 6P/6P3 will do the same thing.