This entire post is basically evidence that you are not one of the people included in your last sentence.
DOA5U What Should be Done with the Ground Game?
- Thread starter deathofaninja
- Start date
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
haha! Nice catch! I hope you know I was being sarcastic. It was more of a general statement. I was just saying, I agreed with the "bad reputation" post. Is there anything that can be done though? DOA is not ruined. It is, however, too simple of a game to play -- regardless of how much "complexity" (ie: frame data) is thrown in there!
I'm not saying make DOA6 ridiculously hard, but as you can see, it's incredibly too easy to win or lose.
I'll ask this though, what is being able to play? To me, it is, utilizing most or all the aspects (or attempting to) instead of relying on one or two. How well, isn't part of the question, as there will obviously be varying degrees of success in said areas. (ie: "He's bad cause he can't combo!" What if I choose not too? I'm no better or worse than you, am I?) I combo, but I also utilize spacing and mixups. Get it? Just beating someone to a pulp, doesn't mean you're good because everybody can do that. It's not bad to do, but if you get in trouble because you do it. (I hear that all the time when I'm on the defense)
There's much more to DOA than what alot of players see. Once players see that and embrace it, I think we'll see some redemption!
I do despise the rinse & repeat factor especially with the ground game! (SDS, string, SDS, string, launch, bigger string, KD - no wait, FT and repeat it again!)
Come play me offline and see how long you'll last if you mash against me, even with ALPHA. DOA has a bad reputation because ignorant and/or close-minded people don't take the time or effort to actually study the game and write it off as a "mashy", "titty-fighter" because they see mashing working online or in videos by people that don't really know what they're doing.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
Like I'm gonna do that! I know better! ITA with that! And yeah, I've seen some mashy Alphas too. I know what mashing is and the severe consequence. Deep down I don't think this game is mashy at all; however, I can't tell you how many times "You're lucky!" was said whether I said it or not when both players get into the "magic pixel situation." (ie: Mash your way out of this!) But yeah, online and offline are different, but one can still mash in both scenarios!
Seeing videos does make things worse, but there are some where players do know what they are doing! It's bad that there's this divide when we're all playing the same game!
At a low level this can apply to any game. I can mash my way to victory in some 2D fighters if I wanted to or in Tekken, SC and VF. If you think DOA is "too simple" to play, then you don't know how to play the game beyond a low or possibly intermediate level. I have played multiple skill levels of players in my scene and have a good idea of how far mashing or "simple" play will get you in the long run. You may win, like, 2 matches out of a 50 match set if the opponent knows how to play properly offline. DOA isn't simple, it's complex as hell to play beyond an intermediate level.
The divide is called "Online" & "Offline".
I'll straight up say that mashing is the most successful shit you can do online, especially if you use ALPHA, since any legitimate shit just goes out the fucking window.
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At the risk of sounding really pretentious, I'm just go go ahead and say this:
DOA gets a rep. for requiring low brain power because the people who play it rarely posses the brain power to understand what the game is about. Most of DOA's fans and critics alike are incredibly stupid and are incapable of dissecting the game's approach.
That's not to say that it's perfect, because it's not. But, people are idiots.
DOA gets a rep. for requiring low brain power because the people who play it rarely posses the brain power to understand what the game is about. Most of DOA's fans and critics alike are incredibly stupid and are incapable of dissecting the game's approach.
That's not to say that it's perfect, because it's not. But, people are idiots.
Finally, someone actually said it. Thank you...
With how I see people playing other games such as VF or Tekken and how they train at that game, it's no wonder DOA's community growth is so low. Very few people know how to play DOA properly. Hell, I don't even know how to play DOA properly. The game is hard as fuck at times. Don't let the relatively easy execution on low-level combos fool anyone into thinking that DOA5U is an "easy game". IMHO, DOA players should learn VF just to get a solid grasp on 3D fundamentals. The bullshit that goes on online doesn't cut it and just keeps the game from maturing.
Play a game because you like the game & not what everybody else think. That's another problem too. People don't play a game because they like the series for whatever reason. Instead, you have some who just go with the popular crowd rather than using their own judgment. The game isn't bad (imo). Every fighting game has its problems. So if you're listening to "he say, she say," or "who say", then you're basically just going off by what people tell you. This isn't a salty post either. Far from it because I play other fighting games. Just DOA is the 1st & main one that I play because I like the franchise. It was my 1st competitive fighter.
The reason why people think "DOA is a titty fighter" & "it's all mash" is because of what the overall fan base requests for costumes (a casual one), the DOAX side series rather than what would make the game better, & people who don't understand how the mechanics work. Out of all the fighting games, it's the easiest to pick on because the community has always been known to be small with very few people going to tournaments supporting the game. People like Rikuto & Sorwah who do their best to discuss the game's issues to Team Ninja (personally) can only do so much for the game.
It can't just be like 9 or 10 people doing something. Mortal Kombat 9 has lopsided character balance but since people within the community love the game so much to the point they come out to tournaments & play it anyway, it attracts a lot of newcomers. MKX is going to be bigger. Ultra Street Fighter IV, again, the numbers are there, everyone is voicing their thoughts to Capcom to improve their game offline & in general. So ultimately, it's up to the community (us) to step up.
So people who keep making all of these gestures towards the game are doing more harm than good since it's not helping the case. Especially when it leads to "you don't go anywhere" (& let's be honest, some haven't). Plus, you have people who refuse to listen & learn along with a lot of stupid ass fight among ourselves. It's one of the reasons why I hardly go deeper than the character community forums. You try to explain something to people & then when you do the right thing such as critique a player with weaknesses, correct a person when they're wrong about an aspect of the game that they didn't know about, or just help them in general, you get slammed with "You're an asshole" or "You're an egomaniac!" or "You're such a scrubby-ass player!" So lose-lose situation.
Just like this topic, when you have people to tell you what you don't understand, you have people who try to tear down a fact about the game with an opinion when you can't. It has to be a fact supporting your argument. Yeah, it's about what you would do about the ground game, but it's also people posting who didn't understand how it really works in the game until now (& some still don't understand).
The reason why people think "DOA is a titty fighter" & "it's all mash" is because of what the overall fan base requests for costumes (a casual one), the DOAX side series rather than what would make the game better, & people who don't understand how the mechanics work. Out of all the fighting games, it's the easiest to pick on because the community has always been known to be small with very few people going to tournaments supporting the game. People like Rikuto & Sorwah who do their best to discuss the game's issues to Team Ninja (personally) can only do so much for the game.
It can't just be like 9 or 10 people doing something. Mortal Kombat 9 has lopsided character balance but since people within the community love the game so much to the point they come out to tournaments & play it anyway, it attracts a lot of newcomers. MKX is going to be bigger. Ultra Street Fighter IV, again, the numbers are there, everyone is voicing their thoughts to Capcom to improve their game offline & in general. So ultimately, it's up to the community (us) to step up.
So people who keep making all of these gestures towards the game are doing more harm than good since it's not helping the case. Especially when it leads to "you don't go anywhere" (& let's be honest, some haven't). Plus, you have people who refuse to listen & learn along with a lot of stupid ass fight among ourselves. It's one of the reasons why I hardly go deeper than the character community forums. You try to explain something to people & then when you do the right thing such as critique a player with weaknesses, correct a person when they're wrong about an aspect of the game that they didn't know about, or just help them in general, you get slammed with "You're an asshole" or "You're an egomaniac!" or "You're such a scrubby-ass player!" So lose-lose situation.
Just like this topic, when you have people to tell you what you don't understand, you have people who try to tear down a fact about the game with an opinion when you can't. It has to be a fact supporting your argument. Yeah, it's about what you would do about the ground game, but it's also people posting who didn't understand how it really works in the game until now (& some still don't understand).
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What should be done with the ground game? People should learn it. Hardly anyone understands 5U ground game.
Just because you understand something doesn't mean it's good or optimal. The system is still flawed.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
Yep, however, there still can be a divide solely among offline or online. Thankfully, offline seems to be more solidified and I acknowledge the representation.
LunaKage
Member
Turn the ground game into the Tekken ground game.
In Tekken, the same two wakeup kicks exist, Mid and Low, but they have no invuln at all, and if you use them you get hit by any Mid or Low move as if you were standing. The wakeup kicks in Tekken are used to punish whiffed moves. So basically, wakeup kicks can be punished, but if you use them right you can use them to punish attempts at punishing them.
In Tekken, the same two wakeup kicks exist, Mid and Low, but they have no invuln at all, and if you use them you get hit by any Mid or Low move as if you were standing. The wakeup kicks in Tekken are used to punish whiffed moves. So basically, wakeup kicks can be punished, but if you use them right you can use them to punish attempts at punishing them.
No, but to have a discussion like this it require neutral understanding which this community lacks with the game system. It makes discussing the game balance and system nearly pointless.
Honestly, the ground game is not as bad as anyone here is trying to make it out to be, it really isn't. It's just one of the parts of the game that is difficult to grasp because it's not simple as layer's one and two of the game (being the RPS system and juggles/threshold/Critical burst). It's a part of the game that requires one to dig further into it in order to understand what's really happening with it. It is actually good once you understand what's it about.
Only few understand it because few are really studying it that much (much like few are really studying the frame data a lot in the game too).
That is also why I've been asking to play you more before when I've asked, so I could possibly help with a visual of Ayane's okizeme, rather than constantly explain it on paper.
I think if training mode was better, people wouldn't have to learn through trial and error. The ground game is very time specific, and it's different for every character. I can imagine that someone that only has online as an option would suffer learning the game.
I didn't start picking up on it until my bf started getting half as good as me, the ground game isn't half bad, but I don't think it's easy to learn...
Also, I saw something about throw breaks.... I don't play many other fighting games, but I do play Soul Calibur; and I don't think a mechanic like would be that appreciated in DOA. First off, DOA characters have a lot more throws than SC chars do, throws are already a hassle to pull off on the fidgety mashy players (
) and it would come off as a nerf to me for the grapplers and a plus for the fast characters who already have a huge advantage.
I didn't start picking up on it until my bf started getting half as good as me, the ground game isn't half bad, but I don't think it's easy to learn...
Also, I saw something about throw breaks.... I don't play many other fighting games, but I do play Soul Calibur; and I don't think a mechanic like would be that appreciated in DOA. First off, DOA characters have a lot more throws than SC chars do, throws are already a hassle to pull off on the fidgety mashy players (
) and it would come off as a nerf to me for the grapplers and a plus for the fast characters who already have a huge advantage.
The training mode is still leagues ahead of most of it's competition.
I for one am grateful for the training mode we got, even if it's not picture perfect.
Most games actually do not explain it's ground game, it's discovered through lab time, and trial&error (as well as anything else that is very in-depth in a fighter).
Plus, DOA5U's training mode is one of the best things about the game. Move Details tells you tons of information previous DOA titles never did on the screen.
Plus, DOA5U's training mode is one of the best things about the game. Move Details tells you tons of information previous DOA titles never did on the screen.
First wall of text of mine in a while so I apologize. Mostly about training mode.
TLDR: 5U training mode Godlike compared to just abut every other fighting game. Screw around in it and just imagine and setup situations to your liking to figure out how you can improve on your ground game.
5Us training mode is Godlike compared to just about every other fighter out. It has a few bugs that need to be worked out (I've found a Power Launcher error) but it is miles ahead of any other fighters.
If you compare training modes for current competitive level games the all have certain things in common (as expected by now): strike height, damage, a recording function, limited frame data (mostly in the form of + or - on hit, whiff, block as well as startup in the case of VF), and certain controls for ai/dummy.
How good 5U training mode is:
Kinda talking about lack of ranked matches and what to do while waiting for them
In here I say to go into Training mode when possible to just learn things:
TLDR: 5U training mode Godlike compared to just abut every other fighting game. Screw around in it and just imagine and setup situations to your liking to figure out how you can improve on your ground game.
5Us training mode is Godlike compared to just about every other fighter out. It has a few bugs that need to be worked out (I've found a Power Launcher error) but it is miles ahead of any other fighters.
If you compare training modes for current competitive level games the all have certain things in common (as expected by now): strike height, damage, a recording function, limited frame data (mostly in the form of + or - on hit, whiff, block as well as startup in the case of VF), and certain controls for ai/dummy.
How good 5U training mode is:
DOA5 takes it several steps furthers. Complete frame data (startup/active/recovery) with advantage/disadvantage on hit/block, height, tracking or not (during strikes/throws/OHs), evasion status (crouching/jumping), delay between commands (even data on when you inputted the command during that interval), range of strikes, distance between you and opponent, how close you have to be to close hit (if a move close hits), how long you go from crouching to standing (and vice versa), and more. You get up to 120 seconds of recording time, most other fighters go to 30 seconds. You can sety dummy behavior and status behavior like no others (reactions, options, standing around options). It's crazy how well made the training mode is and how underutilized it is in whole. If other fighters took the approach that TN did to training we would see enormous increases in gameplay skill across the board in fighters.
Kinda talking about lack of ranked matches and what to do while waiting for them
People whining about having to wait on ranked matches should just go into training, turn on Throwdowns and just practice whatever they feel like doing until they get a match and see just what kind of situations they can set up or learn just by turning on that frame data. I started doing this since I learned that Master does it (he explained on a stream that that's the only reason why he even does ranked matches) and look at how ballistic he can go with Hayabusa just by wondering what kind of silly crap he can come up with.
In here I say to go into Training mode when possible to just learn things:
In regards to learning something about the ground game, make something up and set the dummy to work with it. I've found a few things that don't exactly work the greatest with Leon in regards to the ground game (I've even asked around in the Leon section if anyone really does anything other than ground throws when available) but there are a few things that can really work if you think up what you want to do and set up for it (the recent unholdables reveal can play a huge part in this).