DOA5U What Should be Done with the Ground Game?

[Force_of_Nature]

I slimmed your post down to the key points.

1). Being able to defend when downed is the entire argument I'm making. You are trying to argue that a downed opponent shouldn't be able to do anything, let alone defend themselves.

2). How it Should be is: You dropped the advantage when you dropped the opponent.

Downed states are supposed to be the breather for the person to get back up and back in the game. Again, built in referee.

Not just so the attacker can keep attacking, in which case there's literally no reason to even HAVE a downed state or ground game.

For the record, ground grapples are (mostly) fine. I'm talking about shit like continuing strings on downed opponents, which is just plain retarded.

1. In no FG to my experience have I seen a downed opponent become unable to do anything, and DOA5U is about as far away from an exception as possible. If the downed player feels like they are unable to do anything then they probably don't know how to take a knockdown or rise properly. Tech rolling is your best friend. Learn to use it properly. The amount of guaranteed FT's in 5U for the entire roster you can count on one hand.

2. That has to be the dumbest shit I've heard in awhile.

Downed states are supposed to be the breather for the person to get back up and back in the game. Again, built in referee.

No, downed states are supposed to be punishment for getting hit too much.

Not just so the attacker can keep attacking, in which case there's literally no reason to even HAVE a downed state or ground game.

This makes no sense and is counter-intuitive to how a fighting system should be. MMA fighters get next to no advantage when they're knocked down and consistently lose matches as a result of the ensuing pressure following a knockdown. I also find it interesting that you're fine with ground grapples (since you play Mila & Leon) but hate it when other characters hit you on the ground. How does an opponent avoid a ground grapple? By Teching! Just like any other ground attack!

 

[synce]

I think FTs are stupid but the only thing stupider is removal of FTs. I assumed TN removed them so DOA wasn't COMPLETELY a mashfest, by giving downed players a chance to get up and use some spacing... but the people who whined about FT don't know how to space to begin with, and even if they did it doesn't affect anything because everything leads back to the stun/mash/guess game. FTs did everyone a favor by speeding up that whole process.

Anyway about actual setups, Alpha still has some guaranteed ones. They've been in 5U since release day and that's all I'll say about that. Okay I'll give you a hint: 4K. TN will nerf it now once a few noobs complain as with everything else in DOA5 but whatever, enjoy while you can. On that topic, if anyone at Tecmo even visits FSD I just want to say you should consider hiring people who actually play fighting games. They'll let you know why DOA isn't even half as popular as the major fighters despite catering to the lowest common denominator

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

Your head has to be facing the opponent when knocked down. If they are facing your side or feet, you cannot do Ryu's special wake-up. Additionally, sometimes even when his head is facing the opponent, he may refuse to do the attack. It's probably a result of the opponent being an inch or two outside of a direct line coming from where his head is pointing, but you'll notice every so often Ryu will get up and use his CB immediately. Chances are they intended to use his special wake-up and got that instead.

As far as options against it go, the entire animation (initial roll frames including) has no invincibility at all. The attack is unsafe on block and low throw punishable. It can be held with a mid P hold that counts as a jumping mid P, and it does not track. The attack is quite slow and telegraphed (offline it can be read and held, intercepted or blocked/punished on reaction). It does not crush mids, even early in the animation. Your standard mid-poke will hit him out of it and score CH rewards+damage and the initial roll animation does not function like an evasive command sidestep against regular attacks. For example, a standing Ryu can use 6K against it and still land the hit, despite 6K having no tracking. It will, however, roll outside of special floor hits (such as Ryu's 2P or 8P+K against grounded opponents).

Oh, okay! Honestly, I just try to avoid like the other nimpo moves. Low-Throw punishable? You just made my day. Yet, there's still a "problem." You said a mid P would beat, however, is it possible for Ryu to pull out something faster than my Mid P (It's a command rather than a normal. Normals are highs! (sans 66P) I hate to use the "M" word, but we all know this happens (Could the same be said for Ayane's likewise kick? Although I know I can throw punish or low strike (2H +K and or variants)

 

[Brute]

Oh, okay! Honestly, I just try to avoid like the other nimpo moves. Low-Throw punishable? You just made my day. Yet, there's still a "problem." You said a mid P would beat, however, is it possible for Ryu to pull out something faster than my Mid P (It's a command rather than a normal. Normals are highs! (sans 66P) I hate to use the "M" word, but we all know this happens (Could the same be said for Ayane's likewise kick? Although I know I can throw punish or low strike (2H +K and or variants)

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but the move should crush high attacks for its entirety. I wouldn't using a standing P or K when trying to intercept it. Not that you'd want to, anyway, as you have plenty enough time to use a mid and the reward for doing so will be much greater.
As far as "can he do something faster" then answer is: not really. Aside from the special headbutt WU, he simply has the standard "while grounded" WU options and they function no different. Mid WU and Low WU Ks with initial invincibility frames (+on NH | -on CH) and the ability to tech up backward, forward, or to either side.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but the move should crush high attacks for its entirety. I wouldn't using a standing P or K when trying to intercept it. Not that you'd want to, anyway, as you have plenty enough time to use a mid and the reward for doing so will be much greater.
As far as "can he do something faster" then answer is: not really. Aside from the special headbutt WU, he simply has the standard "while grounded" WU options and they function no different. Mid WU and Low WU Ks with initial invincibility frames (+on NH | -on CH) and the ability to tech up backward, forward, or to either side.

Let's say instead of trying to interrupt his move, I neutral guard it. Is there enough time (frames) for me to pull out something else? It's not that big of a problem since it doesn't have GB properties (not like his nimpo (teleport) kick which I see alot of). That's also something I'm having a problem with (with any character) Finding options out of the GB stun or getting beat out when I GB stun my opponents. (I'll use Tina's "Rump Bump" and Bass' "Three-Point Stance" charge as an example for the former and any ninja or Rachael for the latter off a blocked PB attempt)

 

[Brute]

Let's say instead of trying to interrupt his move, I neutral guard it. Is there enough time (frames) for me to pull out something else? It's not that big of a problem since it doesn't have GB properties (not like his nimpo (teleport) kick which I see alot of). That's also something I'm having a problem with (with any character) Finding options out of the GB stun or getting beat out when I GB stun my opponents. (I'll use Tina's "Rump Bump" and Bass' "Three-Point Stance charge as an example for the former and any ninja or Rachael for the latter)

I forget if his WU headbutt is -15 like the ongyoin version or if it's -7 like the on wall 7PP variant. If it's like the former then yes, you can (assuming your mid is i13). If it's like the latter, then no, he can guard before your attack lands. That said he'd still be at negative so if he attacked you'd CH him (unless you went with a really slow attack or your reaction time was slow). I should note, however, that even the recovery frames crush highs. You don't want to retaliate with a standing P or K (not that that would be wise, anyway). Use a mid.

I will also point out that Ryu's ongyoin 8K (teleport kick), while a GB, actually leaves him at negative frames (ranging from -4 to -6 depending on when it connects). I wouldn't really expect it to land on block often unless you don't know how to deal with the ongyoin stance, but should it connect, you have the frame advantage. Just remember that like the headbutt, it crushes high, so you'll want to retaliate with a mid or low most of the time.

Tina's "rump bump" is actually pretty much the exact same situation. She's at negative frames despite the guard break, but it crushes highs.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

The ground game in DOA5U is actually fine, and very identical to the okizeme in SSF4 AE (if anyone actually pays attention to high and top level play, you'll see the similarities because they are actually there). Proper timing is required in order to get okizeme going, so this actually requires a player to pay attention to the opponent that is knocked down, and become more mindful about this kind of situation.

You have to ready yourself whether you land a hard knockdown, or the opponent will tech up after a knockdown (you are at advantage either way, but you earn bigger rewards for a timed force tech due to the amount of frame advantage you'll receive). You have to react to the situation, not be on auto-pilot, because okizeme is not supposed to be herp derp.

 

[Brute]

You have to react to the situation, not be on auto-pilot, because okizeme is not supposed to be herp derp.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

I forget if his WU headbutt is -15 like the ongyoin version or if it's -7 like the on wall 7PP variant. If it's like the former then yes, you can (assuming your mid is i13). If it's like the latter, then no, he can guard before your attack lands. That said he'd still be at negative so if he attacked you'd CH him (unless you went with a really slow attack or your reaction time was slow). I should note, however, that even the recovery frames crush highs. You don't want to retaliate with a standing P or K (not that that would be wise, anyway). Use a mid.

I will also point out that Ryu's ongyoin 8K (teleport kick), while a GB, actually leaves him at negative frames (ranging from -4 to -6 depending on when it connects). I wouldn't really expect it to land on block often unless you don't know how to deal with the ongyoin stance, but should it connect, you have the frame advantage. Just remember that like the headbutt, it crushes high, so you'll want to retaliate with a mid or low most of the time.

Tina's "rump bump" is actually pretty much the exact same situation. She's at negative frames despite the guard break, but it crushes highs.

I see! With Tina players though, I see tons of this: Bump, PPP. It's almost as if the bump (despite being unsafe) "guarantees" a follow up. (PPP + T usually!) I guess what I'm saying is, I feel like I'm at a disadvantage in either GB situation! I will try out what you said though! Thanks!

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Tina's butt bump is advantageous on block as long as it's done at range, or it's max range. She can potentially net a +5 on block at further ranges.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

The ground game in DOA5U is actually fine, and very identical to the okizeme in SSF4 AE (if anyone actually pays attention to high and top level play, you'll see the similarities because they are actually there). Proper timing is required in order to get okizeme going, so this actually requires a player to pay attention to the opponent that is knocked down, and become more mindful about this kind of situation.

You have to ready yourself whether you land a hard knockdown, or the opponent will tech up after a knockdown (you are at advantage either way, but you earn bigger rewards for a timed force tech due to the amount of frame advantage you'll receive). You have to react to the situation, not be on auto-pilot, because okizeme is not supposed to be herp derp.

Who has to react though? The whole point of the argument seems to be: "Knock the opponent down and keep coming so I won't have to!" ITA that the one grounded has to think as well and not just throw out random WUKs either since they are punishable (especially if one is smart and utilizes the space it grants) Yet, HKD players are fearful of what they believe as a "malignant reset." This is why with Alpha, they dash when she's grounded or continue to apply "oki pressure" (Kasum's ) though she may not oki at all.

Now, how is her unique tech an issue when everyone else can tech roll? No one seems to keep coming when everyone else techs. (Ryu and that headbutt, I better stay away from that!")

 

[Brute]

I see! With Tina players though, I see tons of this: Bump, PPP. It's almost as if the bump (despite being unsafe) "guarantees" a follow up. (PPP + T usually!) I guess what I'm saying is, I feel like I'm at a disadvantage in either GB situation! I will try out what you said though! Thanks!

It's not unsafe for sure. I was under the impression it was a light negative (-1 to -4 or so), meaning that her jab may still beat out your fastest mid.

Hajin says it can provide advantage on block (this could be a result of the range at which it connects or a change for made in ultimate). He's probably correct, but I don't have my game on atm to confirm. Just test it out in traning mode, though. Set the AI to 66P+K then PPP, and move yourself to different locations/ranges and see what options you have that will beat it out.

edit: If you're referring to Alpha, her situation is unique because
1) She doesn't have the option of WU kicks, which can actually be used as intercepts or whiff punishes against an opponent who makes a bad read
2) She does not have the freedom of teching in specific directions as the rest of the cast does.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

Tina's butt bump is advantageous on block as long as it's done at range, or it's max range. She can potentially net a +5 on block at further ranges.

I thought so! Often times, I try to distance myself or hoping she's out of range to. Can this move be SS?

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Who has to react though?

The offender, and it is not difficult to do. Again, you have to be mindful and pay attention to the player that has been knocked down. Not to mention, you can time your juggles/low sweeps that end in hard knockdowns to screw up an opponent's tech timing. That alone gives you control over this kind of situation.

And yes, you can side step the butt bump or hold mid punch or mid kick to avoid it. It becomes strike punishable this way.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

It's not unsafe for sure. I was under the impression it was a light negative (-1 to -4 or so), meaning that her jab may still beat out your fastest mid.

Hajin says it can provide advantage on block (this could be a result of the range at which it connects or a change for made in ultimate). He's probably correct, but I don't have my game on atm to confirm. Just test it out in traning mode, though. Set the AI to 66P+K then PPP, and move yourself to different locations/ranges and see what options you have that will beat it out.

edit: If you're referring to Alpha, her situation is unique because
1) She doesn't have the option of WU kicks, which can actually be used as intercepts or whiff punishes against an opponent who makes a bad read
2) She does not have the freedom of teching in specific directions as the rest of the cast does.

You sure about number 1? I ask because I usually delay it! ANd given that given that it's a , I'm sure it'll beat something out. (I have intercepted with this move before) I agree about number 2. Would SS alleviate this? Most have said her "Bob and Weave" strategy is gone. I don't think so. (I do like her SS )

The offender, and it is not difficult to do. Again, you have to be mindful and pay attention to the player that has been knocked down. Not to mention, you can time your juggles/low sweeps that end in hard knockdowns to screw up an opponent's tech timing. That alone gives you control over this kind of situation.

And yes, you can side step the butt bump or hold mid punch or mid kick to avoid it. It becomes strike punishable this way.

Thanks. I'll try that!

 

[Brute]

Now, how is her unique tech an issue when everyone else can tech roll? No one seems to keep coming when everyone else techs. (Ryu and that headbutt, I better stay away from that!")

You can easily run forward and then block or hold when you see him begin his roll animation, as it looks quite distinct from his regular tech roll. His special WU is really intended to be a whiff punish. You also want to be closer to him when he does it, as it's easier to time a hold, punish or intercept against it when at point blank range. (this obviously assumes offline play)

You sure about number 1?

Yes. She is not able to WU kick to the sides or back, or when her face is on the floor. This severely limits her options and capacity to fight back while grounded. Outside of that one very unique placement, she must tech up and backward.

I agree about number 2. Would SS alleviate this?

Not really, since you have no invincibility frames during a standard sidestep.

Side note: try not to double-post unless you need to bump a thread. Just edit the previous post if you were the last one to post in a thread. Thanks.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

Yeah! I usually write lengthy posts though; therefore, I miss multiple responses! I realize I'm asking alot of specifics about Alpha in other threads, but the intent is generalities. Just using her specifically as an example! I appreciate all of the help!

 

[Tenryuga]

IMO to make the ground game better nerf wakeup kicks and the invincibility on a grounded opponent.

Force techs from all juggles at any height like vanilla should never return because they strip the defender of an option they are intended to have: the WU K. Ideally the way I think oki should work is that the opponent has a chance to shut you down with a WU kick or reverse the flow by teching out of your oki attempt. If they choose to lay there on the ground you should be able to tech them up provided you notice that is what they opted for.

Force techs are a braindead way to maintain oki and basically turn this game into one knockdown + series of correct reads = win which IMO makes for a terrible fighter if EVERYONE in the cast is capable of that for absolutely no effort. It disregards the specialties of characters that play the neutral well IMO because even if everyone has oki not everyone's options to follow up on it are equal. Wtf is Ein going to do to you on oki? 3P?

Right now I have been seeing some ridiculous shit like sweeps go right over someones head on oki. That shit is retarded and it needs to get out of the game. Opponents should be forced to choose between tech roll, delay tech and WU kick. They should not be able to choose any one of these options and get the advantage. The only ones that should allow that is a successful WU kick or evasion of oki attempts via tech rolling which is the entire point of a tech roll.

Like legit I will lay down on the ground for 5+ seconds in a round because its not like you can really do anything to me to get me off it unless you are maybe 5-8 characters out of the cast of 30. I never would have considered doing something like this in vanilla's ground game because that ground game doesn't allow it to happen and it shouldn't.

TN took some steps in the right direction with this games oki. Hajin already mentioned ways to mess with the timing of tech rolls, and hard knockdowns in this game are strong. However I believe this ground game isn't refined yet and so TN should take the steps to do that.

 

[Rikuto]

I've always been for force techs, but the main problem with them as far as this iteration of DOA is concerned is when a character has the ability to go from juggle, force tech, throw/low attack reset into guaranteed stun or launch, repeat.

In order words I think the blender of DOA is currently too strong for a game where a good portion of the cast has very weak spacing capability and there is no throw break system in place to promote damage control. There have been plenty of games in the past where if a person gets in on you, then you are likely screwed, but those games usually had some kind of logical damage control option or at least a really good movement system to counter-balance such danger.

DOA is only kind of half-way there.

 

[J.D.E.]

In my humble opinion, I just don't like how an opponent sits on the ground for a long while when they're knocked down. It annoys me. I have a character that deals with it just fine since she has tools & something to force them up in order to deal with it, but I'm being considerate of other characters who don't have that type of privilege. The player who is standing or gets the knock down should always have the advantage. It doesn't matter if the grounded opponent needs a chance, they should still be at a disadvantage. If wake up kicks weren't the way they are in the game, then it would be fine. It would put more emphasis on playing better defense.

It's not necessarily "bad", but that's just one of the personal issues that I have with the ground game since the invincibility of it is fairly strong. Like some attacks will whiff even when they hit the grounded opponent who constantly lies on the ground. Like you have the hard knockdowns or I should say certain juggles that will score the hard knockdown for the situation (some you have to be considerate of settling for less damage, risking higher damage potential), but you also have tools that will not even land on a grounded opponent who sits there for extra seconds too long.

Edit: Also for the people who keeps saying "Back teching in a corner doesn't work": You DONT back tech near the wall or a corner. Why would you do that? You tech either left or right in those situations. You back tech in open space to create seperation between you & your opponent. lol