Your General Complaints about DoA and Other Fighting Games?

[Awesmic]

There are no Mind Games in guaranteed set ups..... the whole point of going for guaranteed setups is to avoid the process of playing mind games... why ? I don't know.

I read that as using mind games to open the opponent up for a guaranteed setup, not using mind games during the guaranteed setup.

But never mind that.... you didn't say anything about the execution barrier..... what do physically difficult commands to execute have to do with Mind Games and High Level Play ?

One example could be KBDs and other advanced forms of movement. That could be your one saving grace in your spacing strategy someday, and wouldn't hurt to learn how to get down consistently.

 

[Lulu]

I read that as using mind games to open the opponent up for a guaranteed setup, not using mind games during the guaranteed setip.

Well either way. The end result is a less strategic game overall.

One example could be KBDs and other advanced forms of movement. That could be your one saving grace in your spacing strategy someday, and wouldn't hurt to learn how to get down consistently.

Indeed.... but it wouldn't hurt to make the KBD input easier either. Or to remove it.... since no game I know of was intentionally designed to have Korean Back Dashing.

 

[Argentus]

There are no Mind Games in guaranteed set ups..... the whole point of going for guaranteed setups is to avoid the process of playing mind games... why ? I don't know.

But never mind that.... you didn't say anything about the execution barrier..... what do physically difficult commands to execute have to do with Mind Games and High Level Play ?

Well either way. The end result is a less strategic game overall.

Trust me, it's a dead end discussion, just let it go. I've been over these points for years, it's a lost cause.

There's always going to be differing perspectives on the matter. For example, D3v thinks I don't understand high level play or the meta, but I do, it's just that I approach it differently because I'm largely self-taught. I see the juggles/combos, and notice that its lowering overall player skill because it's become a "get out of jail free card", with most focus being on execution, and things would be better if that changed. D3v on the other hand is ingrained in the community and sees and explains things "as is", only focusing on how to maximize said juggles/combos.

This is why, as happened here, I pointed it out, and his response was the usual "you just don't understand high level play", which reinforces my point, because its showing how he's focusing exclusively on it, which was what I was saying was the problem to begin with.

Well either way. The end result is a less strategic game overall.



Indeed.... but it wouldn't hurt to make the KBD input easier either. Or to remove it.... since no game I know of was intentionally designed to have Korean Back Dashing.

It's artificial difficulty, really. People will be proud they learned how to manage piss poor controls, giving them advantage, so will always be against streamlining inputs.

But yeah, as is, too much focus on input and execution, not enough on learning how to fight. Just saying "high level play" doesn't negate that fact.

I read that as using mind games to open the opponent up for a guaranteed setup, not using mind games during the guaranteed setup.

Either way kills the strategy. Its still gunning for an easy way out, so to speak. It's why so many players focus all their effort on getting off guaranteed setups, and lose horribly because they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything. Be better if the option wasn't a temptation in the first place.

 

[THE_WORST_KOKORO]

Spoiler: Click here to read post

Trust me, it's a dead end discussion, just let it go. I've been over these points for years, it's a lost cause.

There's always going to be differing perspectives on the matter. For example, D3v thinks I don't understand high level play or the meta, but I do, it's just that I approach it differently because I'm largely self-taught. I see the juggles/combos, and notice that its lowering overall player skill because it's become a "get out of jail free card", with most focus being on execution, and things would be better if that changed. D3v on the other hand is ingrained in the community and sees and explains things "as is", only focusing on how to maximize said juggles/combos.

This is why, as happened here, I pointed it out, and his response was the usual "you just don't understand high level play", which reinforces my point, because its showing how he's focusing exclusively on it, which was what I was saying was the problem to begin with.


It's artificial difficulty, really. People will be proud they learned how to manage piss poor controls, giving them advantage, so will always be against streamlining inputs.

But yeah, as is, too much focus on input and execution, not enough on learning how to fight. Just saying "high level play" doesn't negate that fact.


Either way kills the strategy. Its still gunning for an easy way out, so to speak. It's why so many players focus all their effort on getting off guaranteed setups, and lose horribly because they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything. Be better if the option wasn't a temptation in the first place

.

• Assume developers thinks Argentus doesn't understand high level play or the meta
• Argentus claims he does.
• "Argentus states that juggles/combos lower player skill, and says its an easy way out of things.

"It's why so many players focus all their effort on getting off guaranteed setups, and lose horribly because they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything. Be better if the option wasn't a temptation in the first place"

because they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything.

"LEARN HOW TO ACTUALLY FIGHT OR READ OR REACT TO ANYTHING."

____________________________

Dude...wut.

If you understood the high level play, you'd understand that these "get out of jail free cards" are punishment tools. Anyways can you please get out the time machine? cause this subject and debate is so old its laughable dude...

 

[Lulu]

• Assume developers thinks Argentus doesn't understand high level play or the meta
• Argentus claims he does.
• "Argentus states that juggles/combos lower player skill, and says its an easy way out of things.

"It's why so many players focus all their effort on getting off guaranteed setups, and lose horribly because they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything. Be better if the option wasn't a temptation in the first place"

because they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything.

"LEARN HOW TO ACTUALLY FIGHT OR READ OR REACT TO ANYTHING."

____________________________

Dude...wut.

To simplify what what he said..... emphasis on execution places less emphasis on strategy.....
So two high level players are going at it.... except one player can do some complex superior move that the other can not..... its not a game if strategy its just one dude spamming the same move over again because its working. Thats pretty much what high level play is..... removing the strategic element from a game and turning it into a game of execution..... its like Playing Real Time Rock Paper Scissors.... simply throwing out your hand signs faster grants you an advantage.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

My complaint for the day Dead or Alive players need to learn the game and stop drawing costumes.

 

[THE_WORST_KOKORO]

To simplify what what he said..... emphasis on execution places less emphasis on strategy.....
So two high level players are going at it.... except one player can do some complex superior move that the other can not..... its not a game if strategy its just one dude spamming the same move over again because its working. Thats pretty much what high level play is..... removing the strategic element from a game and turning it into a game of execution..... its like Playing Real Time Rock Paper Scissors.... simply throwing out your hand signs faster grants you an advantage.

I already see where this is heading. Have ANY of you played in an offline setting? or at an offline tournament?
It's a simple yes or no question... thats all.

 

[Awesmic]

I already see where this is heading. Have ANY of you played in an offline setting? or at an offline tournament?
It's a simple yes or no question... thats all.

It's a simple trick question...

And I'm going with the hidden answer "Even if I said yes, you'd give the same answer".

 

[Lulu]

Trust me, it's a dead end discussion, just let it go. I've been over these points for years, it's a lost cause.

There's always going to be differing perspectives on the matter. For example, D3v thinks I don't understand high level play or the meta, but I do, it's just that I approach it differently because I'm largely self-taught. I see the juggles/combos, and notice that its lowering overall player skill because it's become a "get out of jail free card", with most focus being on execution, and things would be better if that changed. D3v on the other hand is ingrained in the community and sees and explains things "as is", only focusing on how to maximize said juggles/combos.

This is why, as happened here, I pointed it out, and his response was the usual "you just don't understand high level play", which reinforces my point, because its showing how he's focusing exclusively on it, which was what I was saying was the problem to begin with.


It's artificial difficulty, really. People will be proud they learned how to manage piss poor controls, giving them advantage, so will always be against streamlining inputs.

But yeah, as is, too much focus on input and execution, not enough on learning how to fight. Just saying "high level play" doesn't negate that fact.


Either way kills the strategy. Its still gunning for an easy way out, so to speak. It's why so many players focus all their effort on getting off guaranteed setups, and lose horribly because they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything. Be better if the option wasn't a temptation in the first place.

I've actually been following the Execution Debate since the beginning of the year and several Fighting Game experts have weighed in their own oppinion on the matter... which they've expressed in a few articles.

So far the man whos made the best argument for input execution in fighting games is James Chen:

His argument was the method in which two identical moves is performed adds an interesting layer in competitive play..... his example was Fei Long's and Ken's anti-air moves....Ken has his Shoryuken and Fei Long has the Upward Twisting Burning Kick thing that he does..... now for all intensive purpose, These moves are pretty much 100 percent identical.... with the one big difference being that Fei Long's input for his move has a reverse mirror image of Ken's Input for his move.....
Since Ken does his move forward.... it makes it ideal for rushdowns and a more direct play style.... since Fei Long's anti-air starts off with a Backward motion.... it makes ideal for using defensively to interupt attack Strings on block and punish people who chase after your Backdashes.... in Street Fighter you block by moving the stick backwards, trying to perform Ken's Shoryuken to interupt an opponents string is impossible because you need to to move foward to do so, meaning you can't block and buffer the Shoryuken Motion without getting hit.... but you can do it with Fei Long because the input for his move inherently has a Backward motion in it conveniently allowing you to buffer the anti-air without having to stopping blocking.

And you know what.... I'm kinda sort of okay with that.... I think its stupid but its not excluding anyone.

Heres were the argument falls apart.... The Issue was never about Exectution Diversity.... its about Execution Difficulty..... his example about Ken and Fei Long in its own twisted way actually does have some merit to it..... but this does not address the much more unintuitive inputs like The 360's on Zangief's Specials or any single character with a special, super, or upward motion anywhere in it like Gen and Guile's Double Charge Ultras & Supers and Fei Long & Cammy's Diagnol Half Circle Motions.... and thats just normal singular commands.... don't even get me started on Combos and all the various exploits people use to give themselves an edge in Street Fighter like Plinking and Kara Techniques. Quit frankly there isn't an argument for that one..... its stupid... they know its stupid, which is why the go to explanation is "You just don't get it" in this case "it" would be this so called "higher level play" thats conveniently incomprehensible to people with Slower Thumbs or don't use dedicated fighting game peripherals..... seriously..... if theres any logic in that then it should make perfect sense to someone whos never layed a finger on a fighting game before, let alone someone who understands the game but simply lacks the physical capability to fully exploit it.

But this debate is never going to ever reach a conclusion.... developers are always going to keep making their games for the 15 percent of the total number of people who can actually play and exploit their systems. I can guarantee you the majority of people who own Street Fighter don't actually know to play it. I know this because I was one of those people and literally everyone I knew was one of those people two.... it takes running into somebody who actually can just frame link combos together and Option Select to mother loving sh!t out of their entire Okizeme options to show just how blind they were.

As for why I keep bringing it up.... I like knowing where every individual person stands on the issue and why. For the most part nobdy tells me something I don't already know but every now and then I learn something and have better insight on both sides of the coin..... even though I'm firmly on one side of it.

 

[Lulu]

I already see where this is heading. Have ANY of you played in an offline setting? or at an offline tournament?
It's a simple yes or no question... thats all.

Nope.... (well not an official tournament)
Is this the part where you end the discussion by saying "then you know nothing" or something along those lines and promptly leave with no explanation ?
If thats the case then I too also where this is going..... and believe me when I say thats always temporary.....

 

[Awesmic]

Nope.... (well not an official tournament)
Is this the part where you end the discussion by saying "then you know nothing" or something along those lines and promptly leave with no explanation ?

I want to believe he's better than that, but it looks that way.

 

[Lulu]

My complaint for the day Dead or Alive players need to learn the game and stop drawing costumes.

I'm guessing you are directing that comment at a specific DoA Player..... which is totally uncalled for..... partly because he's a talented artist but mostly because he understands the game.....

 

[Lulu]

I want to believe he's better than that, but it looks that way.

A scenario we are all familiar with

 

[KING JAIMY]

I'm guessing you are directing that comment at a specific DoA Player..... which is totally uncalled for..... partly because he's a talented artist but mostly because he understands the game.....

Nah. I don't think he does. There are a lot of players who only care about costumes and not game mechanics such as throw punishing, combos, spacing, etc.

 

[Awesmic]

My complaint for the day Dead or Alive players need to learn the game and stop drawing costumes.

Forget that.

Instead of shooting people down for wanting to draw costumes and improve on their artistic craft (if that's not what you meant in context, that's what it sounds like), encourage them to find the time to do both. It's unrealistic to force people to abandon what they genuinely enjoy doing and expect them to meet your expectations. If that were me in that situation, I'd think you were on that elitist bullshit and just ignore your one-sided advice. Fortunately for you, that's not the case.

And what if people enjoy designing costumes? You don't know their situation, nor how they think. What if they're just fans and they know they don't have the time to play the game uber-competitive? How do you know they aren't gradually working at something to build a resume for their career?

 

[THE_WORST_KOKORO]

*sigh* Look...

"It's why so many players focus all their effort on getting off guaranteed setups, and lose horribly because they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything."

This I can partially agree with. Not everyone is going to know everything about the match-up they're playing and that's normal, some people on the other hand just have slow reaction time. There's MANY factors to this... But to say that we don't read and react to anything is borderline ignorant. There's been countless times where I (and many others, yourselves probably included) have done hard reads on opponents with the reactions of either holding on HI-COUNTER , or doing a strike that I know will counter hit before they even attempt offense...

Now...I don't focus on guaranteed setups BECAUSE I HAVE NO GUARANTEED SETUPS.
but time and time again, yes I see players who use Mila's 7K Charge into CB, and Rig's Sitdown into immediate launcher. It's annoying as hell
But it's in the game, if you're getting hit by this setup over and over again. Whose to blame? Surely not your opponent.

and my name is not "Manfred von Richtofen" so dont shoot me down likes its World War 1.

 

[Argentus]

I've actually been following the Execution Debate since the beginning of the year and several Fighting Game experts have weighed in their own oppinion on the matter... which they've expressed in a few articles.

So far the man whos made the best argument for input execution in fighting games is James Chen:

His argument was the method in which two identical moves is performed adds an interesting layer in competitive play..... his example was Fei Long's and Ken's anti-air moves....Ken has his Shoryuken and Fei Long has the Upward Twisting Burning Kick thing that he does..... now for all intensive purpose, These moves are pretty much 100 percent identical.... with the one big difference being that Fei Long's input for his move has a reverse mirror image of Ken's Input for his move.....
Since Ken does his move forward.... it makes it ideal for rushdowns and a more direct play style.... since Fei Long's anti-air starts off with a Backward motion.... it makes ideal for using defensively to interupt attack Strings on block and punish people who chase after your Backdashes.... in Street Fighter you block by moving the stick backwards, trying to perform Ken's Shoryuken to interupt an opponents string is impossible because you need to to move foward to do so, meaning you can't block and buffer the Shoryuken Motion without getting hit.... but you can do it with Fei Long because the input for his move inherently has a Backward motion in it conveniently allowing you to buffer the anti-air without having to stopping blocking.

And you know what.... I'm kinda sort of okay with that.... I think its stupid but its not excluding anyone.

Heres were the argument falls apart.... The Issue was never about Exectution Diversity.... its about Execution Difficulty..... his example about Ken and Fei Long in its own twisted way actually does have some merit to it..... but this does not address the much more unintuitive inputs like The 360's on Zangief's Specials or any single character with a special, super, or upward motion anywhere in it like Gen and Guile's Double Charge Ultras & Supers and Fei Long & Cammy's Diagnol Half Circle Motions.... and thats just normal singular commands.... don't even get me started on Combos and all the various exploits people use to give themselves an edge in Street Fighter like Plinking and Kara Techniques. Quit frankly there isn't an argument for that one..... its stupid... they know its stupid, which is why the go to explanation is "You just don't get it" in this case "it" would be this so called "higher level play" thats conveniently incomprehensible to people with Slower Thumbs or don't use dedicated fighting game peripherals..... seriously..... if theres any logic in that then it should make perfect sense to someone whos never layed a finger on a fighting game before, let alone someone who understands the game but simply lacks the physical capability to fully exploit it.

But this debate is never going to ever reach a conclusion.... developers are always going to keep making their games for the 15 percent of the total number of people who can actually play and exploit their systems. I can guarantee you the majority of people who own Street Fighter don't actually know to play it. I know this because I was one of those people and literally everyone I knew was one of those people two.... it takes running into somebody who actually can just frame link combos together and Option Select to mother loving sh!t out of their entire Okizeme options to show just how blind they were.

As for why I keep bringing it up.... I like knowing where every individual person stands on the issue and why. For the most part nobdy tells me something I don't already know but every now and then I learn something and have better insight on both sides of the coin..... even though I'm firmly on one side of it.

Yeah I've made that same comment before lol. I get the concept behind the defensive and offensive shoryuken inputs.

but crap like 360 inputs or like Guile's Ultra Flash Kick in SF4, are just flat out retarded, and so arbitrary, that you have to buffer them in the middle of a separate move because the inputs would overlap and cause problems otherwise.

like I said, artificial difficulty that creates a fake skill barrier people cling to.

Personally I keep bringing it up just because, while I know almost nobody will agree with me, I want people to at least ACKNOWLEDGE the issue. Unfortunately most people would rather stay in their safe zone.

To simplify what what he said..... emphasis on execution places less emphasis on strategy.....
So two high level players are going at it.... except one player can do some complex superior move that the other can not..... its not a game if strategy its just one dude spamming the same move over again because its working. Thats pretty much what high level play is..... removing the strategic element from a game and turning it into a game of execution..... its like Playing Real Time Rock Paper Scissors.... simply throwing out your hand signs faster grants you an advantage.

Another analogy would be if you kept going for Rock because once you hit them with Rock you get to repeatedly go Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, Rock, with the other person unable to throw out Paper, hence why like 75% of the players just spam Rock, even though high level players still occasionally throw out Paper and Scissors to bait for the chance to land Rock.

But thank you for understanding what I'm saying, regardless.

 

[Argentus]

*sigh* Look...

"It's why so many players focus all their effort on getting off guaranteed setups, and lose horribly because they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything."

This I can partially agree with. Not everyone is going to know everything about the match-up they're playing and that's normal, some people on the other hand just have slow reaction time. There's MANY factors to this... But to say that we don't read and react to anything is borderline ignorant. There's been countless times where I (and many others, yourselves probably included) have done hard reads on opponents with the reactions of either holding on HI-COUNTER , or doing a strike that I know will counter hit before they even attempt offense...

Now...I don't focus on guaranteed setups BECAUSE I HAVE NO GUARANTEED SETUPS.
but time and time again, yes I see players who use Mila's 7K Charge into CB, and Rig's Sitdown into immediate launcher. It's annoying as hell
But it's in the game, if you're getting hit by this setup over and over again. Whose to blame? Surely not your opponent.

and my name is not "Manfred von Richtofen" so dont shoot me down likes its World War 1.

I'm content. You're discussing it instead of just automatically disregarding, which is a HUGE step in the right direction.

Also to clarify, when I say "they don't learn how to fight or read or react to anything" I'm talking majority of playerbase total, not "all high level players".

What I mean, is, like, I consider myself "average at best" in terms of skill level. But I personally find it insulting that in fighting games, I get most of my wins from opponents simply trying to spam their best combos/setups over and over again.

But it doesn't matter how many times I shut it down or punish it they will continue to spam it because they only need to land it once or twice, so it becomes a matter of "if I slip up in this monotonous routine", not "can I outplay them".

That's what I mean by they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything. It's a crutch for them.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

I'm guessing you are directing that comment at a specific DoA Player..... which is totally uncalled for..... partly because he's a talented artist but mostly because he understands the game.....

Forget that.

Instead of shooting people down for wanting to draw costumes and improve on their artistic craft (if that's not what you meant in context, that's what it sounds like), encourage them to find the time to do both. It's unrealistic to force people to abandon what they genuinely enjoy doing and expect them to meet your expectations. If that were me in that situation, I'd think you were on that elitist bullshit and just ignore your one-sided advice. Fortunately for you, that's not the case.

And what if people enjoy designing costumes? You don't know their situation, nor how they think. What if they're just fans and they know they don't have the time to play the game uber-competitive? How do you know they aren't gradually working at something to build a resume for their career?

In this community you can always see the main focus, but for the players who have problems with the game and never ask for a solution tend to never visit a section. If they put more effort into balancing getting better at the game while drawing costumes they can also improve, It's always clear who puts more effort into a game than others. Majority on this site are going for a career in game design and etc me included this doesn't really stop me from studying the game not at all because i have a balance. If everyone on this site can unite together just like during the Halloween contest for everything including getting better at the game and gathering for offline tournaments this would be great. People will always ask why am i not getting better at the game, really reflects how often you spend your time studying and practicing did you try and how long is the question. The great thing about that is you actually have players in the community who can learn while enjoying the casual side equally so this isn't impossible and it should be like this. If 24 hours is spent on drawing DLC outfits that may or may not be made in the game, than be honest did you really try to improve? on average you should take at least 2 hours out of your time into getting better and gathering notes. If you don't have any where to go and your home all day then you got all the time in the world. People outside of japan are even lucky to get a home version of a fighting game because in the arcades you are giving a certain amount of time to train and your paying for it so 5mins. Like i said you can enjoy anything you want but if you don't balance the two then your not giving it the effort at all.

 

[Awesmic]

In this community you can always see the main focus--

I see several.

If it's not a majority of people intentionally avoiding gameplay discussions out of fear of being chewed out and ridiculed, it's about online gameplay woes, throwing shade at other players (mostly online), throwing shade at people who participate in the more casual discussions of the game, or a combination of all these. DLC and discussion/drama about patches are probably a close second, while tournament discussion/drama is a distant third.

but for the players who have problems with the game and never ask for a solution tend to never visit a section. If they put more effort into balancing getting better at the game while drawing costumes they can also improve, It's always clear who puts more effort into a game than others.

That's unfair to slow learners like myself who genuinely put in the time. Not all of us can learn and apply mechanics at the blink of an eye, much less are naturally skilled at birth. That's why people have their own pace. These things take time.

It took me 6 months to learn how to use the punch, kick, hold, and throw buttons.

Six.

Painful.

Months.

But dad-gummit, I made progress, and I'm proud of that achievement.

Majority on this site are going for a career in game design and etc me included this doesn't really stop me from studying the game not at all because i have a balance. If everyone on this site can unite together just like during the Halloween contest for everything including getting better at the game and gathering for offline tournaments this would be great.

If people were more inviting than intimidating in gameplay discussions, that would be great too.

If 24 hours is spent on drawing DLC outfits that may or may not be made in the game, than be honest did you really try to improve?

Don't be silly. There's no way people spend 24 hours - much less 12 - on DLC costume commissions, especially when it's not for profit. Obviously, school and work come into play.

on average you should take at least 2 hours out of your time into getting better and gathering notes. If you don't have any where to go and your home all day then you got all the time in the world. People outside of japan are even lucky to get a home version of a fighting game because in the arcades you are giving a certain amount of time to train and your paying for it so 5mins. Like i said you can enjoy anything you want but if you don't balance the two then your not giving it the effort at all.

Fair enough, but this doesn't apply to everyone, especially people who were never interested in playing competitively in the first place. Can't hold that against them if they were honest about it from the get-go.

Sometimes you gotta go with the flow and hope for the best. And even with that said, I still believe there's a lot more to it than just people only being interested in designing costumes.