Your General Complaints about DoA and Other Fighting Games?

Argentus

Well-Known Member
If people were more inviting than intimidating in gameplay discussions, that would be great too.

This is the main point.

It's why I don't really bother asking about things anymore if I can help it. Feels like a waste of breath. For example, when I ask how to do something specific, the "typical" response I get is "forget that, do this instead, this does more damage and is guaranteed" then things escalate real quickly when I point out that that's not what i asked about/for, and not what I'm trying to do, getting the inevitable response of "you have to do this and only this or you're a terrible player".
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Nah. I don't think he does. There are a lot of players who only care about costumes and not game mechanics such as throw punishing, combos, spacing, etc.

I'm very confident @Argentus is not one of those people..... I could be wrong but I remain confident none the less.

*sigh* Look...

"It's why so many players focus all their effort on getting off guaranteed setups, and lose horribly because they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything."

This I can partially agree with. Not everyone is going to know everything about the match-up they're playing and that's normal, some people on the other hand just have slow reaction time. There's MANY factors to this... But to say that we don't read and react to anything is borderline ignorant. There's been countless times where I (and many others, yourselves probably included) have done hard reads on opponents with the reactions of either holding on HI-COUNTER , or doing a strike that I know will counter hit before they even attempt offense...

Now...I don't focus on guaranteed setups BECAUSE I HAVE NO GUARANTEED SETUPS.
but time and time again, yes I see players who use Mila's 7K Charge into CB, and Rig's Sitdown into immediate launcher. It's annoying as hell
But it's in the game, if you're getting hit by this setup over and over again. Whose to blame? Surely not your opponent.

and my name is not "Manfred von Richtofen" so dont shoot me down likes its World War 1.

Well DoA is not a good example of a game who's execution causes inexperrienced or incapable players alot of frustration. Thats why I used Street Fighter as an example..... thats not to say DoA is completely innocent though.... however its possible that people struggle with Different things in DoA.... for me its Specific inputs for specific characters and The Stagger Escaping Mechanic.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
I'm content. You're discussing it instead of just automatically disregarding, which is a HUGE step in the right direction.

Also to clarify, when I say "they don't learn how to fight or read or react to anything" I'm talking majority of playerbase total, not "all high level players".

What I mean, is, like, I consider myself "average at best" in terms of skill level. But I personally find it insulting that in fighting games, I get most of my wins from opponents simply trying to spam their best combos/setups over and over again.

But it doesn't matter how many times I shut it down or punish it they will continue to spam it because they only need to land it once or twice, so it becomes a matter of "if I slip up in this monotonous routine", not "can I outplay them".

That's what I mean by they don't learn how to actually fight or read or react to anything. It's a crutch for them.

I'm actually below average :(.
There was an editorial on SRK covering the issue of the average resction times of the average human being, they had a link to The Human Benchmark website were people go to test their reaction times, the average reaction is 200 Milliseconds.... which in fighting game terms is 25-30 Frames..... my score after few tries was in between the 450-380 Milliseconds range. Being twice as slow.... and 2 times 30 is 60. Meaning what people consider to be reactionary scenarios for the average player would be "Psychic Scenarios" for Me (which makes sense.... I've always been a bit of cluts throughout my life.... so far.... did I tell you I almost got hit by a bus once ?).

I'm just glad they were happy to point out the difference between Reacting to a predetermined single result and recognizing one move out of many possibilities and reacting to it with the corresponding counter mechanic..... I'm fairly certain that no player is able to tell many moves apart within a 30 Frame Window and then use the appropriate counter measure before it connects..... especially in a game like Street Fighter where theres no dedicated Counter Mechanic like DoA's Holds.

Still though.... its very embarrassing to get hit be Jan Lee's Dragon Kick 4 Times in Row :oops: especially when 2 of them were Back to Back...... I mean the Dragon Gunner is one thing but the Dragon Kick is just carelessness on my part. :(
 

oMASTER LEGENDo

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
This is the main point.

It's why I don't really bother asking about things anymore if I can help it. Feels like a waste of breath. For example, when I ask how to do something specific, the "typical" response I get is "forget that, do this instead, this does more damage and is guaranteed" then things escalate real quickly when I point out that that's not what i asked about/for, and not what I'm trying to do, getting the inevitable response of "you have to do this and only this or you're a terrible player".

But then you make it difficult to help because your not having fun, which really isn't the point of the game no one can help you have fun. The only principle we go by is how to deplete your health bar as Fast as you can this objective will remain the same forever this is how all high level players think. You don't have fun juggling or kicking someone on the ground for momentum because it's disrespectful so in the end you either leave us with no options of any help because you don't feel like it. If the goal of Dead or Alive is to beat your opponent fast and quick then i really don't understand these invisible rules that only you go by. All the answers we provide is all written down from successful players to past down to new players more like Master and student, the goal of the game is to win this concept will stick with almost any video game, and i play league of legends if i get caught feeding usually someone starts getting angry or blames jungler losing in league can be stressful with the playerbase so obnoxious.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
But then you make it difficult to help because your not having fun, which really isn't the point of the game no one can help you have fun. The only principle we go by is how to deplete your health bar as Fast as you can this objective will remain the same forever this is how all high level players think. You don't have fun juggling or kicking someone on the ground for momentum because it's disrespectful so in the end you either leave us with no options of any help because you don't feel like it. If the goal of Dead or Alive is to beat your opponent fast and quick then i really don't understand these invisible rules that only you go by. All the answers we provide is all written down from successful players to past down to new players more like Master and student, the goal of the game is to win this concept will stick with almost any video game, and i play league of legends if i get caught feeding usually someone starts getting angry or blames jungler losing in league can be stressful with the playerbase so obnoxious.

We all understand that much..... the the reason why we have "Honorable Rules" is partly because we don't have more fun playing to win but its mostly because of the Arbitrarily High Execution Barrier (again using Street Fighter an example) that a majority of players are NEVER going to be able to master regardless of how long they practice (atleast as far as game pads are concerned)... some moves, fundemental or advanced, are arbitrarily too difficult for no reason other than "it makes the game deep" which I can assure is not true. The made up "Rules of Honor" are not just about fun, its about making sure that everybody playing the game is playing on the same level ..... I can guarantee you you wouldn't see Rules of Honor as much in games that have as much depth but have lower execution barriers.... being inclusive and considerate to people incapable of performing unintuitive input commands fast enough for the game to Recognize your trying to performs Zangief's Ultra instead of trying to jump isn't going to hurt high level play.... it just means more people are going to have access to high level play since they don't have put up with the Execution Barrier Preventing them from winning not because they made the wrong choices but because they simply lacked the executive prowess to actually impliment the right choices.

I mean thats why we play Fighting Games right, for the Strategy and mind games.... we want to fight our opponents.... not the controls. We want to pit our options against theres and see who makes all the right choices.... not who can do difficult and powerfull moves the fastest.... The Arbitrary and Unintuitive Execution Barrier is getting in the way of the same high level play we want to be a part of.

So even if we don't like that particular aspect of high level play, doesn't mean we are incapable of comprehending why people use advanced techniques..... when Noobs say "No Ultras" its not always because they Are not fun.... its because In a fight between Zangief vs. Ryu.... theres a very large execution barrier between performing:236::236::P::P::P: Ryu's Ultra which is leneint to perform Raw and doesn't require you to be close at all and Zangief's:4862::4862::P::P::P: which the game always assumes you are trying to jump on the first rotation yet still insists that you have to do it twice, making it infinitely less lenient then Ryu's Ultra..... on top of that its Highly Telegraphed and extremely risky because it has to be perform close range..... hence the "No Ultras" rule of honor.... Theres no such rule In Mortal Kombat or DoA because the input for its equivalent of Ultras is literally only two button presses.... its not difficult and not unintuive. Practically anybody can do it....it doesn't make the game less deep.....it doesn't kill off high level play.

Unless if theres something you know that we don't..... in which case.... share.....

As for why @Argentus seems like he's giving you attitude its because he's been putting up with this crap for much much longer than I have and he's fed up with it...... and everytime I try to perform Jacky Bryants :6::6::H+K: but keep getting :6::H+K: instead I too am also in the process of losing my patience. And I don't mean to sound rude but theres just no advice you can give for stupid shit like that.... it can't be helped.... its just stupid. It wasn't so unforgiving in VF5 so it literally has not reason to be harder to do in DoA.

I'l just stop here.... believe me when I say I can go on forever about that one move.
 

Argentus

Well-Known Member
But then you make it difficult to help because your not having fun, which really isn't the point of the game no one can help you have fun. The only principle we go by is how to deplete your health bar as Fast as you can this objective will remain the same forever this is how all high level players think. You don't have fun juggling or kicking someone on the ground for momentum because it's disrespectful so in the end you either leave us with no options of any help because you don't feel like it. If the goal of Dead or Alive is to beat your opponent fast and quick then i really don't understand these invisible rules that only you go by. All the answers we provide is all written down from successful players to past down to new players more like Master and student, the goal of the game is to win this concept will stick with almost any video game, and i play league of legends if i get caught feeding usually someone starts getting angry or blames jungler losing in league can be stressful with the playerbase so obnoxious.

No. The answers provided are usually irrelevant to the question, which is the problem.

For example, when I tried to pick up Tina, I wanted to make it a point to focus on her grapples, not her strikes, out of principle.

So when I asked "how do I maximize/focus on her grapples over her strikes", the vast majority of the responses were "you have to use strikes/you're playing wrong if you don't use strikes", which is literally the opposite of what I was asking.

Or like in the beginning when I asked what crushes what, how to focus on Milas tackle, most of the responses were "ignore the tackle, use this max damage guaranteed juggle". Which is not what I asked about. That's not helping.

There aren't "invisible rules" here. Its that people completely ignore the questions asked and answer the questions they WANTED to hear.

On the other hand, you have beautifully illustrated the differences in perspective here.

Your priority is THAT you win.
My priority is HOW I win.

I mean thats why we play Fighting Games right, for the Strategy and mind games.... we want to fight our opponents.... not the controls. We want to pit our options against theres and see who makes all the right choices.... not who can do difficult and powerfull moves the fastest.... The Arbitrary and Unintuitive Execution Barrier is getting in the way of the same high level play we want to be a part of.

So even if we don't like that particular aspect of high level play, doesn't mean we are incapable of comprehending why people use advanced techniques..... when Noobs say "No Ultras" its not always because they Are not fun.... its because In a fight between Zangief vs. Ryu.... theres a very large execution barrier between performing:236::236::P::P::P: Ryu's Ultra which is leneint to perform Raw and doesn't require you to be close at all and Zangief's:4862::4862::P::P::P: which the game always assumes you are trying to jump on the first rotation yet still insists that you have to do it twice, making it infinitely less lenient then Ryu's Ultra..... on top of that its Highly Telegraphed and extremely risky because it has to be perform close range..... hence the "No Ultras" rule of honor.... Theres no such rule In Mortal Kombat or DoA because the input for its equivalent of Ultras is literally only two button presses.... its not difficult and not unintuive. Practically anybody can do it....it doesn't make the game less deep.....it doesn't kill off high level play.

Unless if theres something you know that we don't..... in which case.... share.....

As for why @Argentus seems like he's giving you attitude its because he's been putting up with this crap for much much longer than I have and he's fed up with it...... and everytime I try to perform Jacky Bryants :6::6::H+K: but keep getting :6::H+K: instead I too am also in the process of losing my patience. And I don't mean to sound rude but theres just no advice you can give for stupid shit like that.... it can't be helped.... its just stupid. It wasn't so unforgiving in VF5 so it literally has not reason to be harder to do in DoA.

I'l just stop here.... believe me when I say I can go on forever about that one move.


Thank you, especially the bolded. that's word for word what I've said for years now.

The arbitrary input is just an artificial difficulty that people cling to to make themselves feel special.

Like one thing that irritates me is when I'm trying to do 33P and it comes out as 3pp. Two completely different moves, very frustrating lol. That's more just online buffering causing problems though.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
No. The answers provided are usually irrelevant to the question, which is the problem.

For example, when I tried to pick up Tina, I wanted to make it a point to focus on her grapples, not her strikes, out of principle.

So when I asked "how do I maximize/focus on her grapples over her strikes", the vast majority of the responses were "you have to use strikes/you're playing wrong if you don't use strikes", which is literally the opposite of what I was asking.

Or like in the beginning when I asked what crushes what, how to focus on Milas tackle, most of the responses were "ignore the tackle, use this max damage guaranteed juggle". Which is not what I asked about. That's not helping.

There aren't "invisible rules" here. Its that people completely ignore the questions asked and answer the questions they WANTED to hear.

On the other hand, you have beautifully illustrated the differences in perspective here.

Your priority is THAT you win.
My priority is HOW I win.




Thank you, especially the bolded. that's word for word what I've said for years now.

The arbitrary input is just an artificial difficulty that people cling to to make themselves feel special.

Like one thing that irritates me is when I'm trying to do 33P and it comes out as 3pp. Two completely different moves, very frustrating lol. That's more just online buffering causing problems though.

I always wonder what its like to be part of the Exclusive "Just Frame" Club.... I generally do feel some element of happiness and pride when I master something I consider to be difficult......but if its arbitrary then even mastering it won't give me any joy....and not being able to do it at all (Just Frame Moves) makes me feel worse.

I actually classify moves that are too difficult into two categories: Impossible & Impractical.

Impossible moves are things that I can't do at all.... such as Akira's JFK and Hayate's Raijin..... even then they are impossible for different reasons. One is simple but hard and the other is flatout convoluted.

Impractical Moves are moves I can execute easily but can't perform them in Combos in the Combo Challenge or they are just telegraphed when I try to do them.... these would Gen Fu and Eliots Choryo:3_::P: or Jacky's Parry.... I can't do more than three of these :3_::P: in a row. But I can do one easy peasy. Which is a shame because Eliot is the 2nd Male Character I really liked.
 

d3v

Well-Known Member
There are no Mind Games in guaranteed set ups..... the whole point of going for guaranteed setups is to avoid the process of playing mind games... why ? I don't know.
Missing the point.

Mind games come because both players know what the other is going to do. At this point, since player A knows that player B knows that he's going to do setup C, player A instead does setup D because player B isn't expecting it. Of course, this goes into a deeper level when player A does setup D because he thinks player B is expecting setup C, but player B is actually expecting setup C.

If you think mind games are simply, not doing the exact same thing every time, then you're not really doing mindgames. In fact, doing the exact same thing every single time is an important part of mindgames, since it plays into conditioning.

There are times when someone doing mindgames actually doesn't look like it because they look like they're just spamming the same thing over and over, but that's either because they're trying to condition their opponent, or the opponent is thinking too far ahead and as a result, keeps falling for the same thing over and over.

For example, from last weekend's MKX Asia Pacific Championship grand finals between Australia's Edison and the Philippines Timcruz. Edison seemingly kept falling for the same trap that Time was doing, he'd put up an ice clone and go into an overhead. There was a point where Edison ate 3 overheads in a row from this setup. Now while it looked like Tim was spamming the same setup, what was actually happening was the Edison didn't think that Tim would do the overhead a second time after the first hit and would instead go for a low starter. Knowing this however, Tim simply did the overhead again, trusting that Edison wouldn't expect the overheads. He'd then do it another time just to mess with him, and then switch to a low starter afterwards.

Now this is a perfect example of mind games and conditioning. Edison was thinking that Tim wouldn't simply follow up an overhead with another overhead, however Tim correctly read that Edison was thinking this, and therefore just went for an overhead again. Of course, once he hit this twice or thrice, Edison would probably start blocking high against the overhead (or, get conditioned to block high to stop the overhead), that's when Tim switched and started going low.
But never mind that.... you didn't say anything about the execution barrier..... what do physically difficult commands to execute have to do with Mind Games and High Level Play ?
Execution is about two things. First it gives moves a chance to fail without having to resort to an RNG, therefore players can practice against it. Yet at the same time, also fail at certain points due to tournament stress.

The other part is that they allow for more moves to be mapped out to a simply stick+buttons layout. you can get more moves and variations of moves by using special inputs instead of just mapping them to one or two buttons.

Take for example, the upcoming Street Fighter V. In addition to the normal moves and special moves, each character also has a host of command normals (since SFV does away with promximity based normals in favo of command normals). This means that each character has at least 6 or so command normals triggered by holding a direction, and pressing a specific punch or kick button.

So you can't just do the Smash thing of making special attacks a direction plus a button (due to the fact that these are tied to command normals).

The other thing is that motions give certain properties. Charge moves mean that characters using them tend to be more defensive since they need to hold down back. Meanwhile, 360s and 720s usually imply a risk of getting a jump, which tends to force people to buffer them in other moves (either during a jump, buffered in a normal as a "tick throw").

I mean, that's not to say that there are some pretty stupid motions for inputs (SNK pretzel motions are pretty dumb, and I think even 720s are too much). But there are valid, gameplay related reasons for them.

The other important point is that alot of the high level execution stuff is "emergent". In other words, its developed by the players. Most if not all of these high level, high execution elements are stuff the developers never expected, but that the players have discovered and are now using at high level play (e.g. UMvC3 fly-unfly bullet hell with Morrigan, U/SSFIV Evil Ryu combos, Chun Li leg loops, Fuerte Run Stop Fierce, etc.).
Theres no such rule In Mortal Kombat or DoA because the input for its equivalent of Ultras is literally only two button presses.... its not difficult and not unintuive. Practically anybody can do it....it doesn't make the game less deep.....it doesn't kill off high level play.
Changing the motions may not "kill off" high level play, but they can sure as well change it.

Take this for example.
The D.E.D. Option Select works in part because the input for certain supers overlaps with those for certain moves. This means that you can have a situation where, depending on whether or not your low poke hits, the super will come out, or if its blocked, a safer move will come out. This is an OS that works because of the motions. If they were instead 2 button to activate, then it wouldn't work (and would therefore affect high level play).
 
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Juihau

Well-Known Member
If I have a complaint about fighting games in general, it's probably more that a lot of them feel like they "play it safe," in a way. They don't really try to shake things up much. That's not to say they're all the same, necessarily, but that they seem to follow some hidden guideline of what a fighting game must be. Take the Touhou fighters, for example. Hisoutensoku, in particular. In it, projectiles make up a much, MUCH larger part of your offense than in other 2D fighters, and along with that, there are many more ways to defend against them, and characters are much more mobile. These games don't abide to that guideline nearly as much as most other fighters. They have their problems, sure, but I personally find that they end up being really fun, a decent part of that being due to just how different they feel.
DoA, itself, is a pretty similar example imo, with its universal holds. It feels less standardized, and I find that really refreshing.
 

Argentus

Well-Known Member
If I have a complaint about fighting games in general, it's probably more that a lot of them feel like they "play it safe," in a way. They don't really try to shake things up much. That's not to say they're all the same, necessarily, but that they seem to follow some hidden guideline of what a fighting game must be. Take the Touhou fighters, for example. Hisoutensoku, in particular. In it, projectiles make up a much, MUCH larger part of your offense than in other 2D fighters, and along with that, there are many more ways to defend against them, and characters are much more mobile. These games don't abide to that guideline nearly as much as most other fighters. They have their problems, sure, but I personally find that they end up being really fun, a decent part of that being due to just how different they feel.
DoA, itself, is a pretty similar example imo, with its universal holds. It feels less standardized, and I find that really refreshing.
true. I've always had a soft spot for environment based "arena" fighters like NUNS and Power Stone, and then "chaos fighters" like Smash (ALL ITEMS AND STAGES ON)
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Missing the point.

Mind games come because both players know what the other is going to do. At this point, since player A knows that player B knows that he's going to do setup C, player A instead does setup D because player B isn't expecting it. Of course, this goes into a deeper level when player A does setup D because he thinks player B is expecting setup C, but player B is actually expecting setup C.

If you think mind games are simply, not doing the exact same thing every time, then you're not really doing mindgames. In fact, doing the exact same thing every single time is an important part of mindgames, since it plays into conditioning.

There are times when someone doing mindgames actually doesn't look like it because they look like they're just spamming the same thing over and over, but that's either because they're trying to condition their opponent, or the opponent is thinking too far ahead and as a result, keeps falling for the same thing over and over.

For example, from last weekend's MKX Asia Pacific Championship grand finals between Australia's Edison and the Philippines Timcruz. Edison seemingly kept falling for the same trap that Time was doing, he'd put up an ice clone and go into an overhead. There was a point where Edison ate 3 overheads in a row from this setup. Now while it looked like Tim was spamming the same setup, what was actually happening was the Edison didn't think that Tim would do the overhead a second time after the first hit and would instead go for a low starter. Knowing this however, Tim simply did the overhead again, trusting that Edison wouldn't expect the overheads. He'd then do it another time just to mess with him, and then switch to a low starter afterwards.

Now this is a perfect example of mind games and conditioning. Edison was thinking that Tim wouldn't simply follow up an overhead with another overhead, however Tim correctly read that Edison was thinking this, and therefore just went for an overhead again. Of course, once he hit this twice or thrice, Edison would probably start blocking high against the overhead (or, get conditioned to block high to stop the overhead), that's when Tim switched and started going low.
.

If you want to know what I think then simply catchup on the discusion since you left..... quite a few things were addressed and clarified a few things while you were gone.
I'm also fairly insulted that you'd think I don't know how to formulate strategy for a fight or how to adapt if the strategy falls apart.... I'm pretty sure any DoA player who sticks with the game long enough knows a trap when they see one, they may not know how to come up with one them selves.... they may even fall for the same trap multiple time.... but that doesn't mean they don't understand it, thats part of the fun of playing with or against :alpha152:.

Execution is about two things. First it gives moves a chance to fail without having to resort to an RNG, therefore players can practice against it. Yet at the same time, also fail at certain points due to tournament stress.

I don't know if I'm just stupid or if something is wrong with the way one or both of us thinks but how can you possibly think that is a good thing ? If a move or combo fails.... let it fail because mt opponent neutralized/countered it..... don't let it fail because of arbitrary execution nonsense.... I'm no expert but as far as I know.... nobody plays fighting games because they want fight against the controls when they have a perfectly good opponent whos very purpose is to stop your moves from working.... or maybe I'm wrong. Are you one of those people ? It would explain alot.

Tournament Nerves I understand....

The other part is that they allow for more moves to be mapped out to a simply stick+buttons layout. you can get more moves and variations of moves by using special inputs instead of just mapping them to one or two buttons.

Take for example, the upcoming Street Fighter V. In addition to the normal moves and special moves, each character also has a host of command normals (since SFV does away with promximity based normals in favo of command normals). This means that each character has at least 6 or so command normals triggered by holding a direction, and pressing a specific punch or kick button.

So you can't just do the Smash thing of making special attacks a direction plus a button (due to the fact that these are tied to command normals).

The other thing is that motions give certain properties. Charge moves mean that characters using them tend to be more defensive since they need to hold down back. Meanwhile, 360s and 720s usually imply a risk of getting a jump, which tends to force people to buffer them in other moves (either during a jump, buffered in a normal as a "tick throw").

I mean, that's not to say that there are some pretty stupid motions for inputs (SNK pretzel motions are pretty dumb, and I think even 720s are too much). But there are valid, gameplay related reasons for them.

The other important point is that alot of the high level execution stuff is "emergent". In other words, its developed by the players. Most if not all of these high level, high execution elements are stuff the developers never expected, but that the players have discovered and are now using at high level play (e.g. UMvC3 fly-unfly bullet hell with Morrigan, U/SSFIV Evil Ryu combos, Chun Li leg loops, Fuerte Run Stop Fierce, etc.).

Changing the motions may not "kill off" high level play, but they can sure as well change it.

Take this for example.
The D.E.D. Option Select works in part because the input for certain supers overlaps with those for certain moves. This means that you can have a situation where, depending on whether or not your low poke hits, the super will come out, or if its blocked, a safer move will come out. This is an OS that works because of the motions. If they were instead 2 button to activate, then it wouldn't work (and would therefore affect high level play).

"So you can't just do the Smash thing of making special attacks a direction plus a button"
Actually you can..... have you not played Dead or Alive ? Besides I never said that should be the case. And I'm pretty sure I brought up that very same extremism argument earlier in the thread, I was hoping by stating it right from the get go that thats not what any player wanted that nobody would try to use that as a counter argument.... and I should not have had to do it in the first place. If go into forum about Fuel abd said "Gas is way to expensive".... I'm pretty sure nobody is thinking I meant that I want free gas.... I mean I would.... but Castrol's or BP's response to that wouldn't be "Well we can't just give it to you for free".... well atleast I would hope not.... maybe I'm just naive.

"Meanwhile, 360s and 720s usually imply a risk of getting a jump, which tends to force people to buffer them in other moves (either during a jump, buffered in a normal as a "tick throw")."

Because if it was a normal half circle the game would be ruined ? I know how it works.... my argument is that inputs like that are flatout stupid.

The other important point is that alot of the high level execution stuff is "emergent". In other words, its developed by the players. Most if not all of these high level, high execution elements are stuff the developers never expected, but that the players have discovered and are now using at high level play (e.g. UMvC3 fly-unfly bullet hell with Morrigan, U/SSFIV Evil Ryu combos, Chun Li leg loops, Fuerte Run Stop Fierce, etc.).

Changing the motions may not "kill off" high level play, but they can sure as well change it.

Take this for example.
The D.E.D. Option Select works in part because the input for certain supers overlaps with those for certain moves. This means that you can have a situation where, depending on whether or not your low poke hits, the super will come out, or if its blocked, a safer move will come out. This is an OS that works because of the motions. If they were instead 2 button to activate, then it wouldn't work (and would therefore affect high level play).

That depends on the game doesn't it ? And how that game was designed.... and heres what bugs me.... if Capcom finds out that players can Use Kara Techniques to to Extend The Range of their moves or double the Armor Properties of their Ex Attacks whilst still only using one bar of super meter, then why aren't they patching it out or patching in a method that allows more players to have access to these "Emergent Techniques" to even out the playing field.... Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty damn sure Moves are given the Specific ranges they have and Armored Moves only absorb a single hit for a pretty good damn reason..... and yet when somebody comes out and changes them.... they do nothing. Again I ask.... am I just stupid or is there genuinely something I'm missing here ?

I'm pretty sure I made a few grammatical errors up there so i apologise and please excuse my sloppyness.
 

Argentus

Well-Known Member
If you want to know what I think then simply catchup on the discusion since you left..... quite a few things were addressed and clarified a few things while you were gone.
I'm also fairly insulted that you'd think I don't know how to formulate strategy for a fight or how to adapt if the strategy falls apart.... I'm pretty sure any DoA player who sticks with the game long enough knows a trap when they see one, they may not know how to come up with one them selves.... they may even fall for the same trap multiple time.... but that doesn't mean they don't understand it, thats part of the fun of playing with or against :alpha152:.



I don't know if I'm just stupid or if something is wrong with the way one or both of us thinks but how can you possibly think that is a good thing ? If a move or combo fails.... let it fail because mt opponent neutralized/countered it..... don't let it fail because of arbitrary execution nonsense.... I'm no expert but as far as I know.... nobody plays fighting games because they want fight against the controls when they have a perfectly good opponent whos very purpose is to stop your moves from working.... or maybe I'm wrong. Are you one of those people ? It would explain alot.

Tournament Nerves I understand....



"So you can't just do the Smash thing of making special attacks a direction plus a button"
Actually you can..... have you not played Dead or Alive ? Besides I never said that should be the case. And I'm pretty sure I brought up that very same extremism argument earlier in the thread, I was hoping by stating it right from the get go that thats not what any player wanted that nobody would try to use that as a counter argument.... and I should not have had to do it in the first place. If go into forum about Fuel abd said "Gas is way to expensive".... I'm pretty sure nobody is thinking I meant that I want free gas.... I mean I would.... but Castrol's or BP's response to that wouldn't be "Well we can't just give it to you for free".... well atleast I would hope not.... maybe I'm just naive.

"Meanwhile, 360s and 720s usually imply a risk of getting a jump, which tends to force people to buffer them in other moves (either during a jump, buffered in a normal as a "tick throw")."

Because if it was a normal half circle the game would be ruined ? I know how it works.... my argument is that inputs like that are flatout stupid.



That depends on the game doesn't it ? And how that game was designed.... and heres what bugs me.... if Capcom finds out that players can Use Kara Techniques to to Extend The Range of their moves or double the Armor Properties of their Ex Attacks whilst still only using one bar of super meter, then why aren't they patching it out or patching in a method that allows more players to have access to these "Emergent Techniques" to even out the playing field.... Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty damn sure Moves are given the Specific ranges they have and Armored Moves only absorb a single hit for a pretty good damn reason..... and yet when somebody comes out and changes them.... they do nothing. Again I ask.... am I just stupid or is there genuinely something I'm missing here ?

I'm pretty sure I made a few grammatical errors up there so i apologise and please excuse my sloppyness.


You are giving the same points I do, almost word for word.

I'm enjoying this immensely.

like I said, D3V is only looking at things as is, while we are pointing that "as is" is stupid/arbritary and should be fixed. It's just players being complacent/used to exploiting bad game design and not wanting to adapt to it being fixed.

Knowing how mechanics work, and how strategies develop, doesn't make them any less arbitrary or retarded. It's still poor game design that could easily be fixed, but players want to keep it as an artificial skill gap.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
You are giving the same points I do, almost word for word.

I'm enjoying this immensely.

like I said, D3V is only looking at things as is, while we are pointing that "as is" is stupid/arbritary and should be fixed. It's just players being complacent/used to exploiting bad game design and not wanting to adapt to it being fixed.

Knowing how mechanics work, and how strategies develop, doesn't make them any less arbitrary or retarded. It's still poor game design that could easily be fixed, but players want to keep it as an artificial skill gap.

What I want to know most of all is why developers keep doing it..... thats one of the big things missing from this debate.... and while I consider David Sirlin to be a developer.... he's actually on the "make execution simpler" side of the argument....... which he pointed out in one of the articles on his website....

I haven't come across an article written by a developer representing the other side.... for all I know its only the players that are in favour of harder execution inputs.

Who's the gameplay designer at Capcom on the Street Fighter team anyway ? Perhaps he already made his argument on a Japanese website but nobody bothered to translate it.... everybody's probably to busy trying to dig up rumors on Final Fantasy VII remake.... it happens. :oops:
 

d3v

Well-Known Member
Funnily enough, anyone who actually knows me in the FGC knows that I'm all for easy execution. However, some of the points being shared here, or that people are arguing either aren't too well thought out, or simply make suggestion willy-nily without consideration of how the games work.
"So you can't just do the Smash thing of making special attacks a direction plus a button"
Actually you can..... have you not played Dead or Alive ? Besides I never said that should be the case. And I'm pretty sure I brought up that very same extremism argument earlier in the thread, I was hoping by stating it right from the get go that thats not what any player wanted that nobody would try to use that as a counter argument.... and I should not have had to do it in the first place. If go into forum about Fuel abd said "Gas is way to expensive".... I'm pretty sure nobody is thinking I meant that I want free gas.... I mean I would.... but Castrol's or BP's response to that wouldn't be "Well we can't just give it to you for free".... well atleast I would hope not.... maybe I'm just naive.
But DOA does not have the same kind of special move variance that something like Street Fighter has.

For example, Ryu has 3 kinds of hadoukens, not counting meter powered versions, each activated by hitting a specific button. Each has different properties, speeds, etc. The LP version is generally used for meaty wakeups to force your opponent to block, while alternating the timing between the MP and HP versions is part of good zoning. Now you can say "why not just make it forward plus punch", then you realize that that's already assigned to a bunch of command normals. Forward and 2 punch buttons? Then how about EX versions?
"Meanwhile, 360s and 720s usually imply a risk of getting a jump, which tends to force people to buffer them in other moves (either during a jump, buffered in a normal as a "tick throw")."

Because if it was a normal half circle the game would be ruined ? I know how it works.... my argument is that inputs like that are flatout stupid.
Half circles do not carry the risk of a jump.
That depends on the game doesn't it ? And how that game was designed.... and heres what bugs me.... if Capcom finds out that players can Use Kara Techniques to to Extend The Range of their moves or double the Armor Properties of their Ex Attacks whilst still only using one bar of super meter, then why aren't they patching it out or patching in a method that allows more players to have access to these "Emergent Techniques" to even out the playing field.... Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty damn sure Moves are given the Specific ranges they have and Armored Moves only absorb a single hit for a pretty good damn reason..... and yet when somebody comes out and changes them.... they do nothing. Again I ask.... am I just stupid or is there genuinely something I'm missing here ?

I'm pretty sure I made a few grammatical errors up there so i apologise and please excuse my sloppyness.
Because longtime play in the arcades has shown that the players and the community have accepted these techniques and that they have become part of the way the game is played. Generally, due to how the genre has evolved, developers tend to have a more hands off approach to balance. That, plus it's been shown the it's better to let the games breathe and grow before any sort of balance changes are made.

There are actually stories of balance changes being made that the players have rejected. Take for example Street Fighter III 3rd Strike. Back in 1999, a second "Revision B" version of the game was released that added some changes, the foremost being the removal of Urien (and Oro's) unblockable setups. Despite this however, the playerbase in general rejected these changes and tournaments, to this day remain to be played on the Revision A version of the game. In fact, all re releases of 3rd Strike are based on Revision A (in fact, being based on Revision B is why the DreamCast port is considered trash).

At the same time, developers have been changing things and making things easier. Look at how difficult it was to do combos in SFII compared to SF Alpha or SFIII. The thing is, whenever this happens, the playerbase simply pushes the tech further forward, discovering/creating even more high level tech.
 
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Argentus

Well-Known Member
What I want to know most of all is why developers keep doing it..... thats one of the big things missing from this debate.... and while I consider David Sirlin to be a developer.... he's actually on the "make execution simpler" side of the argument....... which he pointed out in one of the articles on his website....

I haven't come across an article written by a developer representing the other side.... for all I know its only the players that are in favour of harder execution inputs.

Who's the gameplay designer at Capcom on the Street Fighter team anyway ? Perhaps he already made his argument on a Japanese website but nobody bothered to translate it.... everybody's probably to busy trying to dig up rumors on Final Fantasy VII remake.... it happens. :oops:
The developers don't "intentionally" do it. Like D3V said, mostly it comes about from players learning to exploit the game design, then those exploits become standard practice, and the devs leave it be.

For example, MOST Of the tactics used by players in street fighter, originated from abusing/exploiting poor game design. Crossups and cancels and buffers are all exploiting sprite animation overlaps and misaligned hitboxes. It's just common(ly accepted) practice nowadays so nobody thinks anything of it.

But DOA does not have the same kind of special move variance that something like Street Fighter has.

For example, Ryu has 3 kinds of hadoukens, not counting meter powered versions, each activated by hitting a specific button. Each has different properties, speeds, etc. The LP version is generally used for meaty wakeups to force your opponent to block, while alternating the timing between the MP and HP versions is part of good zoning. Now you can say "why not just make it forward plus punch", then you realize that that's already assigned to a bunch of command normals. Forward and 2 punch buttons? Then how about EX versions?

Half circles do not carry the risk of a jump.

Because longtime play in the arcades has shown that the players and the community have accepted these techniques and that they have become part of the way the game is played. Generally, due to how the genre has evolved, developers tend to have a more hands off approach to balance. That, plus it's been shown the it's better to let the games breathe and grow before any sort of balance changes are made.

There are actually stories of balance changes being made that the players have rejected. Take for example Street Fighter III 3rd Strike. Back in 1999, a second "Revision B" version of the game was released that added some changes, the foremost being the removal of Urien (and Oro's) unblockable setups. Despite this however, the playerbase in general rejected these changes and tournaments, to this day remain to be played on the Revision A version of the game. In fact, all re releases of 3rd Strike are based on Revision A (in fact, being based on Revision B is why the DreamCast port is considered trash).

At the same time, developers have been changing things and making things easier. Look at how difficult it was to do combos in SFII compared to SF Alpha or SFIII. The thing is, whenever this happens, the playerbase simply pushes the tech further forward, discovering/creating even more high level tech.

On Hadokens, you could free up inputs by simply having ONE of the punch buttons be for Hadokens, and doing the lmh difference by just charging it before firing, like his one super. It would mean the heavy hadoken comes out slower, but it was already slower before, now just a different kind of slow.

Half circles not carrying the risk of a jump is the POINT. It's bad game design for inputs to overlap like that, especially when there's no practical reason for it.

And seriously, fuck Oro and Urien. Cheap ass naked braindead bastards. That just makes me lose a lot of faith in the FGC.

It's why I usually stay away from playing 2d fighters seriously (I LOVE playing them casually, however)




Oh also, that reminds me of something on topic.

I hate when a character's fighting style isn't faithfully represented when they are brought into a game.

Two examples would be

Tayuya in Naruto Ultimate Ninja. She's a long range trap/summon character akin to a puppet/illusion user, but they turned her into a standard melee combo user for some inexplicable reason.

Gundam Heavy Arms in...everything besides Battle Assault 2. In Dynasty Warriors Gundam (Kind of a fighting game lol), he's a melee combo user, and in Gundam Extreme Versus, his projectiles are ridiculously slow and lack range, making him ironically one of the worst ranged characters, despite being the quintessential ranged mobile suit. This is Heavy Arms. He should be able to stay stationary and just hold the trigger down for a wall of bullets and missiles (Which you can in Gundam Battle Assault 2, which is a 2d fighter, surprisingly.


A third example would be the entirety of SFxTekken. Jesus...

A good example though, would be Ryu. He fights EXACTLY the same in DOA as he does in NG, with the same speed, strength, and techniques, only adopted for hand to hand instead of the weapons he uses in NG. (Though granted, DOA came first, so I guess its more that he was successfully adapted from doa to NG)
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
But DOA does not have the same kind of special move variance that something like Street Fighter has.

For example, Ryu has 3 kinds of hadoukens, not counting meter powered versions, each activated by hitting a specific button. Each has different properties, speeds, etc. The LP version is generally used for meaty wakeups to force your opponent to block, while alternating the timing between the MP and HP versions is part of good zoning. Now you can say "why not just make it forward plus punch", then you realize that that's already assigned to a bunch of command normals. Forward and 2 punch buttons? Then how about EX versions?
.
I'l just copy and paste this until you read it carefully:
Besides I never said that should be the case. And I'm pretty sure I brought up that very same extremism argument earlier in the thread, I was hoping by stating it right from the get go that thats not what any player wanted that nobody would try to use that as a counter argument.... and I should not have had to do it in the first place. If go into forum about Fuel abd said "Gas is way to expensive".... I'm pretty sure nobody is thinking I meant that I want free gas.... I mean I would.... but Castrol's or BP's response to that wouldn't be "Well we can't just give it to you for free".

I'l also go on to say I never said anything about Ryu's Hadoken.... near as I can tell theres nothing wrong with the required input for executing it. I do however take issue with a game that has more buttons than I do have fingers to press them with. And thats just on the arcade control scheme..... I'm pretty sure theres more console versions of the game out there than there are arcade versions yet its still primarily designed around the six button arcade set up and on a pad you only have 2 Fingers to spare......

How are you going to do these fireballs at difference at 4 different speeds ? Well... to put it quite simply.... you don't. Perhaps you can use one of the numerous other tools Ryu has Intead of using Fire Ball Traps exclusively to win the fight. Assuming high level play is about strategy and mind games like you said instead of First Order Optimal Strategies and Battles of Attrition that people are currently using Fireballs For.

Half circles do not carry the risk of a jump..

Sigh..... Why do they need to Have That specific Risk in the first place ? Ontop of the normal and acceptible risks of a move being slow on start up, unsafe on block and anticipated by the opponent..... why the hell does the move not coming out at all be part of that risk ?

Because longtime play in the arcades has shown that the players and the community have accepted these techniques and that they have become part of the way the game is played. Generally, due to how the genre has evolved, developers tend to have a more hands off approach to balance. That, plus it's been shown the it's better to let the games breathe and grow before any sort of balance changes are made.

There are actually stories of balance changes being made that the players have rejected. Take for example Street Fighter III 3rd Strike. Back in 1999, a second "Revision B" version of the game was released that added some changes, the foremost being the removal of Urien (and Oro's) unblockable setups. Despite this however, the playerbase in general rejected these changes and tournaments, to this day remain to be played on the Revision A version of the game. In fact, all re releases of 3rd Strike are based on Revision A (in fact, being based on Revision B is why the DreamCast port is considered trash).

At the same time, developers have been changing things and making things easier. Look at how difficult it was to do combos in SFII compared to SF Alpha or SFIII. The thing is, whenever this happens, the playerbase simply pushes the tech further forward, discovering/creating even more high level tech.

First of all... its not 1999 anymore.... back in the day when the "gamer" stereotype was more true than it is today..... 2nd of all..... we no longer use the same peripherals we used in SF2... games are designed for whatever controllers people have on the consoles they bought...... appearently Capcom never got the memo, they keep kept designing their games as if it's still the 90's and Retro Fitting that design on to the modern controller, you might think thats considerate of them but compared to what other developers do to keep up with the times and actually pay attention long enough to notice the majority of people don't play in arcades anymore....then Capcom is lazy by comparison. Hell I and everybody else I know played MK2 and SF2 on the home console back then so even by 90's Standards that shit is still stupid and inconsiderate.

And lastly.... I'm not advocating Balances changes.... I'm advocating Input Execution Changes.... if they want to have all their "Emergent Techniques" then they can have them but for the sake of being fair patch an input method that allows these techniques to be executed by the people who didn't discover them...... if they can't be bothered to do that then patch them out. Either way the playing field remains fair. Anybody who argues against this is not "Playing To Win".... their just assholes who don't care how the win no matter how unbalanced the game may be.... or who knows... maybe its the samething.

Its not unreasonable to believe that if you focus your efforts on "Playing To Win" long enough, you might lose sight of what Balance and Fairness actually is and get your panties all in bunch when a developer wants fix that very problem in a patch so you that you're no longer part of the select few People who can pull off powerfull moves.... or so that you can no longer use those powerfuls moves against people incapable of doing the same.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
@Argentus
Wow really..... I always assumed Ninja Gaiden came first and then they decided to Spin Off into DoA.

Anyway its hard for me to tell glitches apart from intentional design sometimes..... especially when said game has no in game tutorial... Looking at You Capcom..... And you too From Software !!!

Anyway, Kara Cancelling is a pretty big exploit to have in the game.... cancelling one attack into another I understand but cancelling the beginning of an attack into something else before the first attack comes out is something I thought was impossible unless they designed it that way.... I know nothing about game design but I'm pretty sure Capcom knew what they were doing when they designed attacks to be cancelled over like that after the game has already registered specific inputs.... I mean you can't do something like that in MK or DoA as far as I know.... when the game registers an input then it executes that input if theres any other inputs executed after that then they combo into eachother if the next input happens to be part of a string.... if an attack was meant to be cancelled before it goes active then they would deliberately design a mechanic and command for it like DoA's very own Mila.... I know... I'm shameless :oops:
But you get the idea.... in Street Fighter's case that would be Sagat's High Kick Feint. The reason I assumed Other Characters couldn't do it is because the Engine wouldn't allow it.
 

Juihau

Well-Known Member
@Argentus
Wow really..... I always assumed Ninja Gaiden came first and then they decided to Spin Off into DoA.
In a sense, both did. The Ninja Gaiden series started on the NES as a series of infamously (and often rather cheesily) difficult platformers. Hayabusa was then included in DoA as a sort of cameo for people who played the NES games, and he became rather popular, resulting in them making the modern Ninja Gaiden series.

Anyway its hard for me to tell glitches apart from intentional design sometimes..... especially when said game has no in game tutorial... Looking at You Capcom..... And you too From Software !!!

Anyway, Kara Cancelling is a pretty big exploit to have in the game.... cancelling one attack into another I understand but cancelling the beginning of an attack into something else before the first attack comes out is something I thought was impossible unless they designed it that way.... I know nothing about game design but I'm pretty sure Capcom knew what they were doing when they designed attacks to be cancelled over like that after the game has already registered specific inputs.... I mean you can't do something like that in MK or DoA as far as I know.... when the game registers an input then it executes that input if theres any other inputs executed after that then they combo into eachother if the next input happens to be part of a string.... if an attack was meant to be cancelled before it goes active then they would deliberately design a mechanic and command for it like DoA's very own Mila.... I know... I'm shameless :oops:
But you get the idea.... in Street Fighter's case that would be Sagat's High Kick Feint. The reason I assumed Other Characters couldn't do it is because the Engine wouldn't allow it.
It can happen unintentionally. For example, in Senran Kagura (up until EV, the second game with competitive multiplayer), pretty much everything can be cancelled with a dash. Everything. Jumping, attacking, parrying, you name it, you could probably dash cancel it, the only real exceptions being ninpo and dashes themselves (and even then, some characters COULD cancel dashes with dashes, allowing them to move at insane speeds). This causes quite a bit of unintended side-effects, such as being able to dash cancel attacks before they even come out, or cancelling a jump before you actually leave the ground, thus being able to jump again, which you can cancel...basically letting you dash indefinitely. It's a great example of how just a bit too little thought into one mechanic can completely wreck a game's balance.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
In a sense, both did. The Ninja Gaiden series started on the NES as a series of infamously (and often rather cheesily) difficult platformers. Hayabusa was then included in DoA as a sort of cameo for people who played the NES games, and he became rather popular, resulting in them making the modern Ninja Gaiden series.


It can happen unintentionally. For example, in Senran Kagura (up until EV, the second game with competitive multiplayer), pretty much everything can be cancelled with a dash. Everything. Jumping, attacking, parrying, you name it, you could probably dash cancel it, the only real exceptions being ninpo and dashes themselves (and even then, some characters COULD cancel dashes with dashes, allowing them to move at insane speeds). This causes quite a bit of unintended side-effects, such as being able to dash cancel attacks before they even come out, or cancelling a jump before you actually leave the ground, thus being able to jump again, which you can cancel...basically letting you dash indefinitely. It's a great example of how just a bit too little thought into one mechanic can completely wreck a game's balance.

Wow that would be a nightmare for me..... this is one of the issues I had with Trine 2, I played it solo the first time and even though I managed to get passed many of its obstacles ... I wasn't confident I was doing it the way the developers had intended. I shrugged and assumed it was probably designed for Co-Op and thought nothing of it....

But then I played it with A Friend and had the exact same problem only worse..... turns out you could overcome everysingle platforming Challenge but taking turns playing as the wizard who could summon platforms and levitate them across any space within view..... which is exactly what we did.... and it felt wrong and broken, I can't bring myself to play it again.
 
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