DOA5 E3 Version Q&A

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
Ok, that is starting to sink in now, but if you can DrDogg. Can you explain the Critical Burst Setup Kayane was using at E3 in detail? that seem to work 90% of the time.

Can you link me to a video of her doing it? I don't remember the specific attacks off the top of my head.

From what I do remember, she would stun the opponent with whatever attack, then go for a sit down stun, then use Kasumi's CB. But as I said, I don't remember the specific attacks she was using. I was running the tournament far more than watching.

EDIT: Nevermind, I found a video. She used Kasumi's 2-hit string (66KK I think?), which puts the opponent in a critical state on the first hit and a sit down stun on the second hit. Then she uses a CB on the third hit. It's the same thing Rikuto was doing... stun > 3K for the sit down > 7P for the Critical Burst.
 

DriftSlave

Active Member
Ok, I get it, so the first hit does put them into a Critical state then a sitdown stun. I think this is pretty cool, I'm not sure if the games meta would revolve around this...or this even being a prominent factor in high level play but it's interesting none the less.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Ok, I get it, so the first hit does put them into a Critical state then a sitdown stun. I think this is pretty cool, I'm not sure if the games meta would revolve around this...or this even being a prominent factor in high level play but it's interesting none the less.

It's pretty dominant. Master and Mamba were slow escaping my sitdown stun actually and blocking the CB. Had we played more I would have found an ideal way to punish the SE with either a quick launch or an OH/throw.

Most players will probably never even wise up to the point of slow escaping it, and I've still got pretty much ALL of the pressure coming from my side even if they do.
 

DriftSlave

Active Member
Oh wow, that's something~ So there is alot more to it then what it seems like on the surface...then again, I'm notvery familiar with high level DOA play, but that seems very interesting. From how you explained it, you can almost turn Critical Burst set ups into true mix-up options to make your opponent to guess in a more traditional fighting game way(blocking,ducking,etc)...well at least that's what I got from that.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Oh wow, that's something~ So there is alot more to it then what it seems like on the surface...then again, I'm notvery familiar with high level DOA play, but that seems very interesting. From how you explained it, you can almost turn Critical Burst set ups into true mix-up options to make your opponent to guess in a more traditional fighting game way(blocking,ducking,etc)...well at least that's what I got from that.

Pretty much, yes. You can see the slow escaping happening during the stun so it's not as if you have to guess the defenders intent there.
 

DriftSlave

Active Member
Because im not familiar with that situation, do you mind me asking what are the defenders options during slow escape? Also does Slow Escape = VF5 shakeable stuns?
*I read the wiki's description but I want some clarification*
 

Matt Ponton

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Standard Donor
Slow Escape is basically Struggle/Shaking.

The term was just created long before the community had established fighting game players come in with terminology. It was derived from the idea that defensive holding was the 'fast escape' and this took longer so it was called 'slow escape'.
 
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Deleted member 473

Guest
Looking at the E3 build frame data, I estimate that about half of the attacks in the game are disadvantage on normal hit if they don't lead to a critical stun. Of those attacks, most of them are unsafe. However, in these situations, you can't throw the opponent. If the next attack in the string is initiated before the throw connects, the throwing player will get hi-counter blown. Attacking in this situation can work, but it's limited depending on the string in question and the jab speed of the defending player.

Also of note, Tina is the safest character in the game with about 50% of her attacks safe on block. The next closest character is about 20% safe.
:tina: = BOSS!
 

virtuaPAI

I must say Thank You all!!!
Staff member
Administrator
Every single one of those attacks is either unsafe, or doesn't cover enough distance.
-Than it would be in your best interest to use those moves that cover that distance to punish your opponent.

I'm going by what they should've done if they were playing smart. They were not, but that doesn't mean I know what they're going to do next. In fact, since they were not playing smart, it's even harder to determine what they're going to do next. Either way, I'm still forced to guess if I want any kind of real benefit from the situation.
-This is the very essence of Theory fighter that you are accusing me of. You should be going by what you have witnessed in front of your very own eyes. Your opponent was constantly attacking out of disadvantage, here is a pattern that you see. Punishing your opponent with that "unsafe" attack in this instance would have been a neutralizer because your opponent is playing unsafe, which would result in you getting a Counter blow attack.

The main point was that a similar frame trap in other fighting games never puts me at risk, I rarely have to guess unless I need some really big damage, and I can either get solid damage or maintain frame advantage by forcing my opponent to play smart and make the choices I set for them. In DOA that is not the case and that gives the defender no reason to stop attacking out of frame advantage.
-A frame trap would not put you at risk in any fighter. This is not an exclusion to Doa, this is what you are failing to understand. The trap you intended to do did not work on your opponent, because he was not playing smart. The basis of your very tactic is around your opponent playing smart. Once that falls out the window, so does your tactic. This gives rise to you using that "unsafe" attack to punish your opponent because it is the proper tool to use at the time. Every aspect in the game is relative. What is unsafe in one situation, is safe in another. This is something that you need to get an understanding of.

You lost me with the whole winning thing. I win in Tekken, SC and VF with logical frame traps. I said I did not win in DOA5 because proper logic doesn't apply. I have no idea what you're referring to by bolding the part where I said I lost, then saying I didn't win. /confused

In Tekken, VF and SC, I can go for either a safe attack that will punish the opponent well, or maintain frame advantage. I can't do either in DOA5 using Akira in the example stated.
-The premise of your whole entire argument is you not being able to apply logical fighting game tactics in Doa. You are wrong, and quite incorrect. You are trying to force a situation that clearly do not work on those individuals of a lower level play style(This would have the same effect in any fighting game). This is illogical and the cause of your frustration. Instead of adapting, you continue to use this failing tactic on your opponent. You also like to spam the word guessing and forced guessing around when it is not even applicable in most of the situations you bring up. You do not like to adapt to the situation, and calling this adaption forced guessing.

-Here is how other High level players would have dealt with this situation. An attack with frame advantage would have been used, it would have been repeated to gauge their opponents response. If their opponent continued to attack out of disadvantage, than a proper counter blow would be used. If the opponent continued to block/hold after frame advantage, than a throw would be used. A frame trap would not even come into play until the player felt the level of conditioning was satisfactory. You the player need to make your opponent fear frame advantage, not the game. Once you have your opponent shook, you open many of the mind games(that you was trying to press) that was not available. All of this have nothing to do with guessing, but reading patterns than capitalizing on it. You are not going to be spoon fed the answer, you are going to have to think, access the situation, than make your move.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
*more stuff*

I want to be able to punish an opponent attacking out of disadvantage with something safe that can either lead to frame advantage or a combo/juggle. In every other game I can do that. In DOA I cannot, which is why there isn't much fear when attacking out of disadvantage.

All of your accusations about how I play and want to play are incorrect and starting to get offensive. I don't have these issues in other fighting games, only in DOA. Yet you continually want to call me out as if this is my problem and not the game's problem.

You don't know Akira's options, you don't know the situation, and I've grown tired of trying to explain it to you. I'm done with this because you keep trying to dissect every little thing I say in an attempt to prove me wrong. You're ignoring anything I've said that blatantly puts an end to this hyperbole you're spouting and instead you focus on anything you can that not only ignores my original point, but draws the conversation back into an argument. Next time pay attention to the original issue instead of doing what you always do, acting like you know everything even when you have yet to play the game beyond the Alpha build, and it will be a much better conversation.
 

virtuaPAI

I must say Thank You all!!!
Staff member
Administrator

-You are constantly making the same excuses as to it being the games fault and not your own . I made it clear to why your application of the situation is incorrect. Not only have I made the same deduction, but others have as well. In fact I have not heard anything negative about it except from you! You are so stuck in that 1+2=3 that you are not seeing that 2+1=3 as well.You are making it seem as if you were the only one privey to such game play mechanics in Doa, and that no one else could make logical assessment of the situation(especially when you have given a detailed analysis of the very thing you did). This is not new and have been applied correctly and been abused to death with Doa3.1(Doa2u Hitomi) with Hitomi, Jann lee, Bass, Hayate, Lei Fang, Tina..etc. My knowledge of how this is applied in Doa is not going to change because of your experience with the E3 build. So if you wish to continue to believe that you are correct, go ahead and do that, While other players will be making advancements, and doing the very thing that you could not do.

The statement "-A frame trap would not put you at risk in any fighter." blew my mind.
-Why would that Blow your mind?
 

DriftSlave

Active Member
because you "are" at risk when doing a frame trap. The point of a frame trap is to force your opponent to press a button. with that said, what blows up frame traps in 2D fighters? moves with invulnerability~(SRK)

Not sure how one would deal with frame traps in DOA, but im sure if their are moves with armor or sabaki, they can blow up frame traps too, so it's still a risk. even if that wasn't the case, if the opponent don't press a button, the frame trap doesn't work. I don't like the idea of theory fighter but that happens when it comes to frame traps....it's a mix up.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
You are constantly making the same excuses as to it being the games fault and not your own .

When did I make an excuse? I think there's an issue with the game in terms of risk/reward. That's why I brought it up.

Not only have I made the same deduction, but others have as well. In fact I have not heard anything negative about it except from you!

And people agree with me, what's your point? And you must not be paying attention, people have agreed that it's a negative thing in this very thread.

You are so stuck in that 1+2=3 that you are not seeing that 2+1=3 as well.

I want proper punishment for attacking out of disadvantage. As in, a safe attack that either inflicts solid damage or puts me at frame advantage. Neither of those options are present. All you're telling me is that I can risk an unsafe attack if I guess that the opponent will continue to ignore the frame advantage. That is not 2+1=3, that's 2+x=z.

You are making it seem as if you were the only one privey to such game play mechanics in Doa, and that no one else could make logical assessment of the situation(especially when you have given a detailed analysis of the very thing you did). This is not new and have been applied correctly and been abused to death with Doa3.1(Doa2u Hitomi) with Hitomi, Jann lee, Bass, Hayate, Lei Fang, Tina..etc. My knowledge of how this is applied in Doa is not going to change because of your experience with the E3 build.

Have you played Akira in DOA5? No. Do you know Akira's frame data in DOA5? No. Do you know what attributes Akira's attacks have on counter-hit? No. I see... please continue to tell me about all this knowledge you have on the situation.

What's interesting is that the same situation in VF5FS gives Akira a free juggle. Even if I react late, Akira still has frame advantage and can continue his offense.

So if you wish to continue to believe that you are correct, go ahead and do that, While other players will be making advancements, and doing the very thing that you could not do.

You do realize the game is not out yet right? I think it's pretty insulting of you to believe that I won't be making advancements once the game is released... assuming of course that I will be playing the game competitively upon release. I'm hopeful, but that still has yet to be determined.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Wai, wai, wai, wait. It was 66p with Akira, right? It's safe, isn't it? If you guard break someone and do that, at +12 you should continue to get CH; If they block it would be safe. Naturally I'd like to see more safe attacks or some frame advantage, but this situation is always going to work the same. The problem is that you chose to guess, which would have happened in any FG if you were wrong. Unless 66p doesn't offer a very good stun... then it's character specifics.
 
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Deleted member 473

Guest
(no offense) If you suck at the game you suck. Don't go blamin the mechanics. Even then at the end of the day, This game is going towards casuals FIRST, not Hardcore players. So these comments are biased.
 

Matt Ponton

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Standard Donor
As in, a safe attack that either inflicts solid damage or puts me at frame advantage.

Sorry, this sentence was confusing to me.

1) An attack that gave frame advantage would by definition be a 'safe attack'.

With that said, then you'd want a safe attack that inflicts solid damage.

Are you referring to the actual damage numerical stat, or an arbitrary status in addition to damage? I.e. a deep stun, lift stun, sit-down stun.

From what I'm getting through this discussion is that you want to have an attack, that has the range to reach the opponent after the +12 guard break, would beat a guarding opponent by being a safe attack on guard, would beat an attacking opponent by launching or guaranteeing a launch with 125% revision, and possibly beat a holding opponent either through the move making it unholdable or connecting with the holding opponent before they can hold? Oh, and of course being an attack, I'm sure it would also win against throws.
 

Chris Harris

Well-Known Member
Okay for those don't understand what Bryan is saying. . . .

He's saying that because of how much you have to risk even at being +12 is insane in DoA.

Basically you DO have options to punish someone for fighting out of disadvantage but your options are also unsafe so it's almost like why even go for it.

In pretty much every other fighter, if you have +12 you don't have to "gamble" away your advantage with something so unsafe. If you are at advantage if someone is pressing buttons you don't have to go for something big that also puts you at risk, you can do another safe attack that also grants frame advantage if it hits.

In DoA the defender just doesn't care because they are mixing you up on the defensive with "is he going to hit a button or not". In general if you are at advantage the defender can still say that but if he guesses with "hit buttons" you can either go with strong launcher (unsafe) or another poke that leaves you at advantage.

In DoA you can't really do that except with your +12 run up and do more string mix ups. Even that is still crazy considering you had advantage and don't want to press your advantage.
 
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