DOA: Flaws and Tournament Viability

[BlackOrochi]

DOA's biggest flaw is still present in all of it: you're afraid to attack even after a successful offense.

This defies the logic set by every other fighting game series. What's the quote that d3v always has in regards to other fighters? "Good offense is rewarded with more offense" or something to that effect.

DOA does the opposite and, until that's fixed, I don't see DOA making much of an impression on anyone that plays fighters seriously.

We stand in completely opposite paradigms, Grape.

There are several game's that fully reward offense with more offense, but I'm glad that DOA does it with limits. Players are supposed to be afraid to attack. It indicates the crucial role of defense and adds tension. It may not be as exciting for viewers, but as my coach used to say: "Offense sells tickets; Defense wins championships."

I don't believe that following logic set by other fighting games should be the plan. DOA should be a leader, not a follower, and players will recognize that on September 25th. I understand that many pro players want DOA to shine in tournaments like EVO... but trying too hard to "fit in" makes DOA look desperate and even more prone to be cast out. Why chase attention DOA can easily thrive without? The 1% pro players naturally think championships (can't blame 'em), the 99% players think fun.

You know what truly defies logic though? 4pt-holds. Either stick with 3pts (1 direction for each level), or go for 6pts (2 directions for each level, yes I'd rather that). 4pts is just half-assing and a cheap mathematical fix. But that's another topic...

 

[Raansu]

We stand in completely opposite paradigms, Grape.

There are several game's that fully reward offense with more offense, but I'm glad that DOA does it with limits. Players are supposed to be afraid to attack. It indicates the crucial role of defense and adds tension. It may not be as exciting for viewers, but as my coach used to say: "Offense sells tickets; Defense wins championships."

I don't believe that following logic set by other fighting games should be the plan. DOA should be a leader, not a follower, and players will recognize that on September 25th. I understand that many pro players want DOA to shine in tournaments like EVO... but trying too hard to "fit in" makes DOA look desperate and even more prone to be cast out. Why chase attention DOA can easily thrive without? The 1% pro players naturally think championships (can't blame 'em), the 99% players think fun.

You know what truly defies logic though? 4pt-holds. Either stick with 3pts (1 direction for each level), or go for 6pts (2 directions for each level, yes I'd rather that). 4pts is just half-assing and a cheap mathematical fix. But that's another topic...

Someone's new around here...

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

Someone's new around here...

don't start everytime y'all get into it you end up defeating the purpose of the original thread.

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

glad to see we can be so mature about this -_-

 

[Blazeincarnated]

fuck tournament viability at this point. I just want the game to be fun for everyone. DOA aint trying to be a follower as you can obviously see...it has totally different mechanics..

*Edit: I rep for DOA for DOA only, fuck trying to impress other fighters, cause those games are for THEM! They are just Cliche copies off of Street Fighter anyways lol

 

[grap3fruitman]

fuck tournament viability at this point.

You made a wrong turn in Albuquerque because you're in the wrong place.

Being in the wrong place, no one else has addressed your statement because everyone has you on ignore.

I just want the game to be fun for everyone.

So the people that want to play DOA at a higher level don't count in your definition of "everyone?" Because DOA5 doesn't look fun to me.

DOA aint trying to be a follower as you can obviously see...it has totally different mechanics..

I'm glad you're content with DOA continuing to be the worst fighting game in existence.

I rep for DOA for DOA only, fuck trying to impress other fighters

All the changes we've been suggesting haven't been in order to appeal to people playing other fighting games, they've been so DOA would be a solid fighting game. Appealing to people that play other fighters would be a side effect of that.

 

[Blazeincarnated]

You made a wrong turn in Albuquerque because you're in the wrong place.

Being in the wrong place, no one else has addressed your statement because everyone has you on ignore.


So the people that want to play DOA at a higher level don't count in your definition of "everyone?" Because DOA5 doesn't look fun to me.


I'm glad you're content with DOA continuing to be the worst fighting game in existence.


All the changes we've been suggesting haven't been in order to appeal to people playing other fighting games, they've been so DOA would be a solid fighting game. Appealing to people that play other fighters would be a side effect of that.

You don't even sound like a DOA player, go play something else you fake ass fan..

 

[TRI Mike]

You made a wrong turn in Albuquerque because you're in the wrong place.

Being in the wrong place, no one else has addressed your statement because everyone has you on ignore.


So the people that want to play DOA at a higher level don't count in your definition of "everyone?" Because DOA5 doesn't look fun to me.


I'm glad you're content with DOA continuing to be the worst fighting game in existence.


All the changes we've been suggesting haven't been in order to appeal to people playing other fighting games, they've been so DOA would be a solid fighting game. Appealing to people that play other fighters would be a side effect of that.

Then I'm sorry but I just don't understand why you keep posting in this site and making so much noise about the series if you think it's not fun and the worst FG series in the market. Go play VF, Tekken or whatever the hell you like if you want to have your own fun. I mean, if I don't like a series (Dynasty Warriors for example), you won't see me whining so much about it on forums related to it.

DOA5 is heading the right way, not all of the problems with the mechanics will be addressed in time as Bryan has mentioned COUNTLESS times but it's definitely one of the best, if not the best DOA ever made (I can't be sure because I never played 3.1). As I told you in my previous post here, your constant complaining is not helping the series in any way. You keep saying you want DOA to be "solid and fun" but you come to the most important forum the series has as a veteran member and insist on saying the franchise is shit and sharing "I'm NOT a fighter" images. That's not gonna do any good.

When the game comes out, a lot of people will buy it and we'll be getting new active members on a daily basis and if you want those to stay and actually play the game both offline and online, we gotta stop talking like that about it. It's OK if we address the problems and say "DOA is wrong here, here and here" but those "It's the worst fighting game" coming from you hurt not only the game, but this site as well. I'm really tired of reading the same whining in every thread about gameplay or trailers.

DOA5 is only 2 months away and the perfect system we all want will not come with it because Team Ninja simply doesn't have enough time to fix everything before September 25th. If someone doesn't like the game then I think it's best to just play something else.

 

[grap3fruitman]

~snip~

Fine, fighting game series.

I'm really tired of reading the same whining in every thread about gameplay or trailers.

Am I such a bad person for wanting DOA5 to actually be a good game?

DOA5 is only 2 months away and the perfect system we all want will not come with it because Team Ninja simply doesn't have enough time to fix everything before September 25th.

We've been asking for these same things to be fixed for years! Even before DOA Dimensions came out, we were talking about what needed to be fixed for that game to be viable. Did Team Ninja listen then? No. How are you supposed to convince them to make changes without making any noise?

You don't even sound like a DOA player, go play something else you fake ass fan..

Right, I actually bothered to learn the mechanics well enough to understand their flaws and the guy who doesn't know the difference between his ass and frame advantage is the "real" fan. Good job, you won that argument!

 

[Blazeincarnated]

Fine, fighting game series.


Am I such a bad person for wanting DOA5 to actually be a good game?


We've been asking for these same things to be fixed for years! Even before DOA Dimensions came out, we were talking about what needed to be fixed for that game to be viable. Did Team Ninja listen then? No. How are you supposed to convince them to make change without making any noise?


Right, I actually bothered to learned the mechanics well enough to understand their flaws and the guy who doesn't know the difference between his ass and frame advantage is the "real" fan. Good job, you won that argument!

I guess I did lol cause that made absolutely no sense LMAO!

 

[DriftSlave]

I believe grap3 is more of a doa fan because of the things he says then just sitting and accepting what team ninja craps out. As a ninja gaiden fan...i was pissed about how ng3 turned out. Personally i hope doa5 dont turn out that way...it will if the game done not grow outside its small fan base. If ur a doa fan then want doa to be a solid competitve fighter then some casual fighter that is written off as a tit fighter(well that stigma may not go away).

Anyways im with grap3 on this one i want a good game...not doa4 because i can play that jazz right now.

 

[OSTCarmine]

besides all that its not a good idea to call people out on their DOA fandom here on FSD. on any other site you couldn't throw a rock without hitting 5 noobfags bitching about costumes and pointless shit. on FSD its pretty much the exact opposite of that. Throw ANYTHING here and you will hit somebody so crazy about DOA they will shove all their love down your throat.

 

[DriftSlave]

there is a clear difference though, the point is that we all want DOA to be a competitive fighting game....if that is not what you want then you don't share the collective mindset of most people here simple as that.

That is what DOAW and other sites are for, to talk about(but not limited to)the non-competitive jazz, yeah I like to talk about that stuff(who doesn't) but when it comes down to it, I want DOA to be a competitive fighting game first, my fandom for the series will have to take a backseat because that kind of shit gets in the way in seeing the bigger picture. ALOT of other users have this fucked up way of thinking too...justifying it as "well thats what makes DOA unique" no it's what makes it not tournament viable thats all. I don't want DOA5 to be a causal experience, I want to go to ranbats for this game like I do for VF5, SCV, and KOF.

anyways, If im wrong about something, please point it out...

 

[Raansu]

there is a clear difference though, the point is that we all want DOA to be a competitive fighting game....if that is not what you want then you don't share the collective mindset of most people here simple as that.

That is what DOAW and other sites are for, to talk about(but not limited to)the non-competitive jazz, yeah I like to talk about that stuff(who doesn't) but when it comes down to it, I want DOA to be a competitive fighting game first, my fandom for the series will have to take a backseat because that kind of shit gets in the way in seeing the bigger picture. ALOT of other users have this fucked up way of thinking too...justifying it as "well thats what makes DOA unique" no it's what makes it not tournament viable thats all. I don't want DOA5 to be a causal experience, I want to go to ranbats for this game like I do for VF5, SCV, and KOF.

anyways, If im wrong about something, please point it out...

100% this.

 

[Kronin]

there is a clear difference though, the point is that we all want DOA to be a competitive fighting game....if that is not what you want then you don't share the collective mindset of most people here simple as that.

That is what DOAW and other sites are for, to talk about(but not limited to)the non-competitive jazz, yeah I like to talk about that stuff(who doesn't) but when it comes down to it, I want DOA to be a competitive fighting game first, my fandom for the series will have to take a backseat because that kind of shit gets in the way in seeing the bigger picture. ALOT of other users have this fucked up way of thinking too...justifying it as "well thats what makes DOA unique" no it's what makes it not tournament viable thats all. I don't want DOA5 to be a causal experience, I want to go to ranbats for this game like I do for VF5, SCV, and KOF.

anyways, If im wrong about something, please point it out...

My same feelings, anyway it's a thing more complicated for me. I like the fighting games but I'm not really a fan of the kind, on the contrary I'm a big fan of DOA (I talk about the gameplay aspect) and for this reason I love to play with the games of the series. I really think that "what makes DOA unique" is what I love of the game, but I know also that is what contributes to limite its competitve aspect: it's really strange, its point of strenght (for me) is at the same time also its weakness.

 

[DriftSlave]

like it's been said multiple times before, DOA can keep the thing that makes it unique....the triangle system. Holds in stuns among other things are not the things you want to protect, I damn sure want to reduce the amount of randomness that is in DOA.

And before someone counter argue the statement, yes I know every fighting game is random, that's the fucking point, to not be predictable. but DOA is a different kind of random and thats what im talking about. how the tides of a battle can change on a whim had always been rather insane to me. how offense means very little in DOA is a problem, not something unique. uhhg...I don't want to go off on another tangent but other threads have addressed the issues with DOA and why some of them can not be fixed at this point as the game is too far into development....anyways....I want DOA to keep what makes it unique....not what makes it a bad fighting game to play at a high level.

 

[BlackOrochi]

besides all that its not a good idea to call people out on their DOA fandom here on FSD. on any other site you couldn't throw a rock without hitting 5 noobfags bitching about costumes and pointless shit. on FSD its pretty much the exact opposite of that.

Agreed, and well appreciated from the FSD community.

ALOT of other users have this fucked up way of thinking too...justifying it as "well thats what makes DOA unique" no it's what makes it not tournament viable thats all. I don't want DOA5 to be a causal experience, I want to go to ranbats for this game like I do for VF5, SCV, and KOF.

anyways, If im wrong about something, please point it out...

The problem is that the concept of holds out of stun is one that rewards you for making a mistake. No other fighting game does that except maybe Killer Instinct with it's Combo Breakers (and even then the reward wasn't as much). For any other game, getting out of a combo requires taking some sort of heavy condition (meter, etc.). Also, the reason why games like Tekken, Marvel, etc. are popular is because, players like being rewarded for winning the neutral game with offense, and in those games, you are rewarded with alot of offense.

So...According to you, Offense makes a game tournament-viable... I find that assumption pretty limited.

The problem is that the concept of holds out of stun is one that rewards you for making a mistake. No other fighting game does that except maybe Killer Instinct with it's Combo Breakers (and even then the reward wasn't as much). For any other game, getting out of a combo requires taking some sort of heavy condition (meter, etc.). Also, the reason why games like Tekken, Marvel, etc. are popular is because, players like being rewarded for winning the neutral game with offense, and in those games, you are rewarded with alot of offense.

Now if if people insist on not revamping the system, then the only way to make this game survive is to NERF THE SHIZZ OUT OF THE HOLDS.

-Bring the damage down as low as possible.
-Scale any combos, throws, etc. out of hold very hard. Say 50% damage reduction or greater.
-No KOs from holds. Even if you throw or combo out of it. Or better yet, make it so that a character with less than 10% life is unholdable.

I can't help but wonder how you were able to "befan" the DOA series for so long... I'm not questioning your fanhood, it's just the game has always been so far from what you apparently want. I admire your persistence, and perhaps your hope, because it's safe to say that your vision is unlikely to happen unless Namco-Bandai or Capcom purchase the rights...but even so, I'm being optimistic.

Another thing:
There seems to be a huge misconception on what makes a game tournament-viable.

What makes a game tournament-viable isn't the debate on nerfed holds, nor the chase to grant guaranteed combos like all other fighting games. It's the community. Not the community that cries the loudest, but the community that has the most players. The main reason why DOA seems to have fewer players isn't because of the gameplay itself, it's because, since DOA3, TN wrongfully decided to release the series as Xbox exclusives. Haven't you noticed that all games at EVO are all multi-platform, therefore gathering a wider pool of players? No wonder why DOA tournaments had 15 players... It had cut itself from the world.

Many of you are justifying game changes based on tournament-viability, and I find that approach flawed. Especially if the pro community represents a minority of players. What you need to understand is that games can be completely opposite to each other, but still hold tournaments as long as you give yourself the means to make your game popular. By making the game multi-platform this year and backing it by unprecedented promotion, TN will bear the fruits of its labor. And I'm willing to bet more than my 0.02¢ on that.

Get back on topic, fellas.

Sorry, Al. I didn't know where to post that. But it had to be said.

 

[DrDogg]

There seems to be a huge misconception on what makes a game tournament-vibility and I find that approach flawed. Especially if the pro community represents a minority of players. What you need to understand is that games can be completely opposite to each other, but still hold tournaments as long as you give yourself the means to make your game popular. By making the game multi-platform this year and backing it by unprecedented promotion, TN will bear the fruits of its labor. And I'm willing to bet more than my 0.02¢ on that.



Sorry, Al. I didn't know where to post that. But it had to be said.

Actually, your logic has already been tested and failed. No DOA has ever had a decent tournament scene no matter how many copies were sold. It wasn't the community, it was the lack of a tournament-viable game engine.

Look at Mortal Kombat. It had a competitive scene for MK1 through UMK3, but it had nothing for MK4 through DC Universe because the games weren't tournament-viable. NRS buckled down and listened to the community and not only did the game sell 3 million units, it has a solid tournament scene with back to back Evo appearances.

That's not just my $0.02, those are the facts.

 

[BlackOrochi]

Actually, your logic has already been tested and failed. No DOA has ever had a decent tournament scene no matter how many copies were sold. It wasn't the community, it was the lack of a tournament-viable game engine.

Look at Mortal Kombat. It had a competitive scene for MK1 through UMK3, but it had nothing for MK4 through DC Universe because the games weren't tournament-viable. NRS buckled down and listened to the community and not only did the game sell 3 million units, it has a solid tournament scene with back to back Evo appearances.

That's not just my $0.02, those are the facts.

EVO is held in the US. The next gen versions of MK have been "acclaimed" successes in the US only. There are no MK players in Japan, and very few international MK players to draw in at EVO. The only fact I see about MK being at EVO is good ol' American patriotism. Not the game engine.

 

[DrDogg]

EVO is held in the US. The next gen versions of MK have been "acclaimed" successes in the US only. There are no MK players in Japan, and very few international MK players to draw in at EVO. The only fact I see about MK being at EVO is good ol' American patriotism. Not the game engine.

Way to completely ignore my point. Forget Evo (where MK was the only game this year to have an international 5v5), MK gets solid turnouts at almost every tournament it's featured at... significantly larger than anything DOA has ever seen. Not to mention DOA has never had a competitive scene anywhere in the world.