DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[UncleBiscuits79]

If you're not incredibly knowledgeable about the game then you really have no place to be saying that Alpha is underpowered, overpowered or really anything, nor are you in a position to contribute to meaningful MU discussion. People's intuitive experience is often mis-representative, which is why it requires extensive game knowledge and extensive MU experience in order to accurately analyze, asses and discuss MUs and Tiers.

I'm not trying to be mean or bully you, but many of us have extensive game knowledge and a ton of valid experience. So when you make some generalized statements that don't go into tech or specifics and simply reference some casual experiences you've had in online play and these are contra to the observations we've made and researched diligently and then openly admit that your knowledge is limited, you shouldn't be surprised that people don't consider that a valid contribution to MU discussion.

Hi Brute, with all due respect to you, When someone asked to 'elaborate on the 6-4 matchup', you responded with one word 'SideStep' that didn't actually explain anything (which was slightly annoying honestly). At least Intelligent Alpha guy tried to give some anecdotal information about what he has seen with his response.

Don't know if it's fair for you to criticize him so hard, when you reply to a question with one word with no accompanying info in a preceding post. Just my two cents though.

Maybe there was some context in previous posts somewhere that I am missing, but your snide comments kind of struck me as unnecessary.

 

[Yurlungur]

Hi Brute, with all due respect to you, When someone asked to 'elaborate on the 6-4 matchup', you responded with one word 'SideStep' that didn't actually explain anything (which was slightly annoying honestly).

Kokoro is extremely linear. I believe out of her whole movelist she has a grand total of 3 tracking moves? Most people at higher level like brute stated are aware of that so it's common knowledge. __shrug.

 

[Brute]

Hi Brute, with all due respect to you, When someone asked to 'elaborate on the 6-4 matchup', you responded with one word 'SideStep' that didn't actually explain anything (which was slightly annoying honestly).

Well it comes back to a discussion where people actually are knowledgeable and have studied the game. When I say "sidestep," those who are knowledgeable on the game (ie: the target audience when discussing MUs) know that Akira has very potent sidestep attacks. With Kokoro's well-known weakness to sidesteps, those familiar with the game can figure out on their own how that is going to be a significant element. While Kokoro doesn't have bad sidestep attacks, they are not as formidable as Akira's. I could go through each one step-by-step, but the idea is that those discussing the MU in question are already familiar with those elements and will then begin to reinspect the MU with a focused lens on that dynamic when I refer to it.

That is actually promoting relevant tech-related MU discussion, which is very different from "I once fought an S rank Akira online as Kokoro and it felt like a pretty even MU," which does absolutely nothing to address the actual MU and is more of just a recital of personal experience. This is because we don't know either party's skill, how the net lag/delay affected it, how knowledgeable each player was and how well adjusted they are to using their tools to their maximum potential, etc. There are too many variables that we have to plug in and blindly assume in order for it to actually mean anything. "Anecdotal information" alone is useless when unsupported by sufficient analysis.

 

[UncleBiscuits79]

Well it comes back to a discussion where people actually are knowledgeable and have studied the game. When I say "sidestep," those who are knowledgeable on the game (ie: the target audience when discussing MUs) know that Akira has very potent sidestep attacks. With Kokoro's well-known weakness to sidesteps, those familiar with the game can figure out on their own how that is going to be a significant element. While Kokoro doesn't have bad sidestep attacks, they are not as formidable as Akira's. I could go through each one step-by-step, but the idea is that those discussing the MU in question are already familiar with those elements and will then begin to reinspect the MU with a focused lens on that dynamic when I refer to it.

That is actually promoting relevant tech-related MU discussion, which is very different from "I once fought an S rank Akira online as Kokoro and it felt like a pretty even MU," which does absolutely nothing to address the actual MU and is more of just a recital of personal experience. "Anecdotal information" alone is useless when unsupported by sufficient analysis.

Ok, so that is fair enough, but I come to this forum specifically to learn about things like match ups and explanations for matchups. From how you talk, it's like you assume that everyone already knows everything about this stuff. In that case then, why would I even come to the forum if I already fully understood an Akira-Kokoro matchup (for example)? I guess my point is that this stuff isn't as well known as you say sometimes.

I am not new to fighting games, but I am new to DOA, and have only recently started playing DOA with DOA5U, so I don't have experience with the game that goes back to the 90s with the original DOA game like some of you others do. If I can't find clear info hear about matchups in a Tier Discussion forum, then where should I go to get this info??

 

[Force_of_Nature]

If I can't find clear info hear about matchups in a Tier Discussion forum, then where should I go to get this info??

Clear info should be found here, but in order to have "clear" info, people need to be able to contribute solid match-up and character related things. Quite frankly, not enough solid MU details have been proposed for the characters, hence why a lot of MU's here appear incomplete or inconclusive.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Phase 4: 4-6 a lot of characters don't struggle with Phase 4, but since Alpha and Phase 4 share a lot of the same frame properties in start ups, it's actually hard for Alpha to open Phase 4 up. If the Phase 4 player has decent knowledge of Alpha, she can evade all of Alpha's OH and good throws and that's always an issue when reflecting over Alpha MU.

Phase 4 wins over Alpha how all other characters do, but she also wins in speed and in crushes; speed being something Alpha is still feared over. Phase 4 is also one of the few characters that can evade Alpha's parry because of the range of her mids.

To open up Phase 4 is not harder for Alpha in any way as to open up other strikers with the same speeds. Due to her unsafe nature, Phase still has to be careful with attempts for counter-poking, because Alpha has a mid parry that relativates the thread of half of her counter-poking tools and as soon Phase get's blocked, Alpha can immediatly start the next string mixup for trying to open her up, her i13 mid, i9 or i12 high startups are fast enough for that. And as soon as Alpha get's it startet, the situation is in her favor because Phase does not have any mid parry and blocking all of Alphas strings still requires some guesses. And you don't want to guess with holds too much against Alpha.

As already said, Phase also cannot keep up momentum against Alpha easily, which is actually necessarily while fighting her.

Phase's 2P is helpful to interrupt Alphas strings and reset the situation but it doesn't grant her any offensive momentum due to the pushback. If that happens, the situation is also still more in Alphas favor because she has better tools for that range as well as an long range OH. Thing is, Alpha has a similar 2P as well.

In terms of mixup, I would say they are almost equal. Phase 4 has strong mixup opportunities as soon as she gets the teleport startet, were every combo, especially on Alpha as a featherweight, ends in big damage. On the other handside, Alpha has long ass strings and stronger throws in her favor, as well as 3 critical bursts on different levels.

Phase has more crushes indeed, however, Alpha has way more tracking moves. And sidestepping is a huge problem for Phase.

IMO, this MU may be even, but it's not in Phase's favor.

 

[J.D.E.]

I'm actually curious about how & why Phase 4 is faster than Alpha.. Phase 4 has to play more at mid range & counter poke while Alpha is much more of a threat in Phase's face, free canceling & mixup game. The match up should come out even since they both excel more than 1 category than the other. They're polar opposites of one another, 1/2 of Kasumi, a character that a lot of people who play either one of them try to turn them into but can't.

Phase 4:
Damage
Range (mid)
Wake up game

Alpha:
Neutral Game
Speed
Poking

Alpha also has parries. It's the same circumstance as Kasumi. People downplay them in match ups in particular because they don't work the same as characters who have solid parries (Gen Fu, Lei Fang, Akira, Kasumi etc). Phase also has advanced mid kick & mid punch holds of both of which nets her damage. So it really all boils down to who takes advantage of one another's strengths & weaknesses, offense vs defense.

 

[tokiopewpew]

I'm actually curious about how & why Phase 4 is faster than Alpha. Alpha is faster than Phase 4 across the board.

Phase's speeds are 9/12/12 while Alpha's are 9/13/12 as far as I know.

Apart from their 2P's, Phase also has a faster high crush with 1P as well as faster mid kicks with 3K and 6K (beside their 7K's). For everything else, they have almost the same speeds, so Alpha isn't faster across the board.

 

[J.D.E.]

Phase's speeds are 9/12/12 while Alpha's are 9/13/12 as far as I know.

Apart from their 2P's, Phase also has a faster high crush with 1P. For everything else, they have almost the same speeds, so Alpha isn't faster across the board on important things.

Thanks for pointing that out. Didn't know that we were talking about those certain tools.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Didn't know that we were talking about those certain tools.

We were not, I just think saying that Alpha is faster across the board is a bit incorrect.

 

[Brute]

Ok, so that is fair enough, but I come to this forum specifically to learn about things like match ups and explanations for matchups. From how you talk, it's like you assume that everyone already knows everything about this stuff. In that case then, why would I even come to the forum if I already fully understood an Akira-Kokoro matchup (for example)? I guess my point is that this stuff isn't as well known as you say sometimes.

I think you'll actually find that I'm often quite detailed when breaking things down around here, but in this thread specifically I do assume that those I'm engaging in discussion with are fairly knowledgeable or diligent with testing/researching proposed tech on their own. This is simply because as I described before, it's part of the nature of this kind of discussion. For example, when paleontologists come together to identify some new bones, chances are they'll be using a lot of jargon and field-specific references, assuming their peers know or have access to much of the same knowledge they do, as that knowledge is needed to properly engage the subject at hand.

I am not new to fighting games, but I am new to DOA, and have only recently started playing DOA with DOA5U, so I don't have experience with the game that goes back to the 90s with the original DOA game like some of you others do. If I can't find clear info hear about matchups in a Tier Discussion forum, then where should I go to get this info??

You can get it from any number of places (character forums often have MU-discussion threads, the character-specialist thread is full of people who will undoubtedly help break those things down if you requested, etc.). But honestly, you can find it here, as well. For example, if you quoted my "Sidestep" post and asked me to elaborate on what I meant, I would have gone into increasing detail until you felt you understood what I was getting at.

Phase's speeds are 9/12/12 while Alpha's are 9/13/12 as far as I know.

Alpha's 7K is a 12 frame mid

 

[tokiopewpew]

Alpha's 7K is a 12 frame mid

That is right. Somehow, I just don't consider it as something Alpha can use to get a good stun game/launch/juggle off (That is always what I think about when I have mid attacks in mind). Sure, Alpha's 7K is a very good tool and would beat Phase's 6P as well as her 7K in terms of damage so she could actually spam it all day long.

So yeah, in actual fact, they share the same speeds. One indication more that this MU should rather be equal.

 

[deathofaninja]

To open up Phase 4 is not harder for Alpha in any way as to open up other strikers with the same speeds. Due to her unsafe nature, Phase still has to be careful with attempts for counter-poking, because Alpha has a mid parry that relativates the thread of half of her counter-poking tools and as soon Phase get's blocked, Alpha can immediatly start the next string mixup for trying to open her up, her i13 mid, i9 or i12 high startups are fast enough for that. And as soon as Alpha get's it startet, the situation is in her favor because Phase does not have any mid parry and blocking all of Alphas strings still requires some guesses. And you don't want to guess with holds too much against Alpha.

As already said, Phase also cannot keep up momentum against Alpha easily, which is actually necessarily while fighting her.

Phase's 2P is helpful to interrupt Alphas strings and reset the situation but it doesn't grant her any offensive momentum due to the pushback. If that happens, the situation is also still more in Alphas favor because she has better tools for that range as well as an long range OH. Thing is, Alpha has a similar 2P as well.

In terms of mixup, I would say they are almost equal. Phase 4 has strong mixup opportunities as soon as she gets the teleport startet, were every combo, especially on Alpha as a featherweight, ends in big damage. On the other handside, Alpha has long ass strings and stronger throws in her favor, as well as 3 critical bursts on different levels.

Phase has more crushes indeed, however, Alpha has way more tracking moves. And sidestepping is a huge problem for Phase.

IMO, this MU may be even, but it's not in Phase's favor.

I already explained how Alpha's mid parry isn't a great option for Phase 4, since Alpha's parry doesn't guarantee damage people should stop treating that move like it's god especially when it also misses the guard breaker on numerous occasions against Phase 4, Hitomi and other characters.

Alpha has a bunch of track moves, and a bunch of moves that are easy to reverse. Phase 4 has more useful launchers in her arsenal, and all of her launchers leader to tons of damage on Alpha.

Whenever Phase 4 senses Burst, Rush, or Break all she has to do is 1P and that counteracts all of her finest options.

The fact that they are so even is really what puts Alpha at a disadvantage.

Oh, and while 7K does have its purposes, it used to actually be a fantastic move. Now... eh. Well I guess it resets the match. Phase 4 can follow up.

 

[UncleKitchener]

I think right now I have that match up as 6-4 Sarah - Bass. Because Bass did get buffed in Ultimate, and his High Crush leads to a good stun, but yeah I think i'd bump it back up to 7-3 because his buffs didn't really help him get in on Sarah or keep her out too much. He's still left practically guessing and going YOLO.

Edit: Ah, did have it as a 7-3, which I think the buffs from Bass brought it down from an 8-2 was my argument.

After going through this MU a bit with emperor cow, I've found that it usually involves knowing Sarah's frames extensively, poke her out of her strings with 2Ps, punishing her really unsafe moves and obviously holding some of the Flamingo transitions which are too slow.

His mid range game can be used to keep her out and stop some of her attempts at trying to harass him. In some cases she'll try to use her keep away moves and most end up being unsafe and good for punishing and shifting momentum.

Problem with this MU is that when in close range she'll actually become very hard to deal with because of all the rampant guessing you need to do. Things like constant 6KP/KPs and FLM 2KK or the like are reactable after getting used to the visual cue in case you have to 2P or SS, but other things like the FLM mixups in general and just dealing with pokes in the neutral game is something that involves reads and good defense, so it's still not easy.

Personally, I'm not sure of what sort of number to give this, because both me and Emperor Cow were unfamiliar with eachother's characters, but the thing is that it didn't feel worse than the Christie MU, so 6-4 for now. Sure, both are bad MUs, but the thing is that the only way I see Bass players learning this MU is to actually learn Sarah's toolset and interrupt her mixups and punish her.

Sad but true fact of being a Bass player, I guess.

Bass also get more frame advantage in his juggle 6KP vortex compared to Christie who is midweight. In also all cases from every launch height into 6KP, he is at enough frame advantage that his 15i pokes are going to beat her no matter what. He has a good crush from that situation, he has access to his best, throw and he has tools for mid range in case they do try to tech backwards.

Christie is actually the problem child when it comes to the vortex since she's a mid weight.

 

[tokiopewpew]

I already explained how Alpha's mid parry isn't a great option for Phase 4, since Alpha's parry doesn't guarantee damage people should stop treating that move like it's god especially when it also misses the guard breaker on numerous occasions against Phase 4, Hitomi and other characters.

No one said that Alpha's parry is a godlike move that guarantees any damage. As a parry, it is supposed to help in terms of defense, and this is, as I already said, a factor that relativates Phase's opportunities for offensive. No more and no less.

Alpha has a bunch of track moves, and a bunch of moves that are easy to reverse. Phase 4 has more useful launchers in her arsenal, and all of her launchers leader to tons of damage on Alpha.

I don't know in which way the amount of launching moves has influence on a MU. In most cases, players have to guess between a high and a mid, whereat almost no one is using mid punch launchers (like Phase's 33P) due to the fact that they could also go for a cb instead.

One should also consider that Phase is a lightweight that can be also juggled very well by Alpha, with good amounts of damage.

Oh, and while 7K does have its purposes, it used to actually be a fantastic move. Now... eh. Well I guess it resets the match. Phase 4 can follow up.

Yes, Phase can follow up, but she has to carry a much higher risk on whiff, therefore she can't put it on screen careless.

 

[Brute]

the only way I see Bass players learning this MU is to actually learn Sarah's toolset and interrupt her mixups and punish her.

That's actually the only legitimate way to approach any MU.

But as a heads up, even when you know Sarah's strings, frames, traps and set-ups the MUs with her don't magically become a lot more tolerable.

 

[Yurlungur]

just wait for doa6 she'll be out of the game

 

[deathofaninja]

I don't know in which way the amount of launching moves has influence on a MU. In most cases, players have to guess between a high and a mid, whereat almost no one is using mid punch launchers (like Phase's 33P) due to the fact that they could also go for a cb instead.

One should also consider that Phase is a lightweight that can be also juggled very well by Alpha, with good amounts of damage.

The amount of launching moves has influence on Alpha losing her life. And yes, Phase 4 is a lightweight, and Alpha is a feather.

 

[Yurlungur]

Life's hard when you're a jello lady

 

[Matt Ponton]

Life's hard when you're a jello lady

First world problems...