6++ Gameplay Overhaul

raididiot

New Member
This should be my last suggestion for now (hopefully). I don't know how to embed the video so here's a link.


Basically, phase 4's 2k in stun is +18 in doa5, but it was brought down to +11 in doa6 (meaning you can no longer combo with it). Although Kasumi's 2k in stun was +18 in doa5 and it's still +18 in doa6. Any chance of restoring it to its former glory?
 

Rev_an

Active Member
I think hit confirm throws are what would balance the triangle system. It's possible to extend stuns on an incorrect counter and it's possible to counter strikes but there is no throw escapes on an incorrect counter (I can't strike back when already stunned to put it simply) and hi counter throws are without a doubt the best thing in the game because there is minimal risk in doing them.
A hit confirm throw would allow throws to be escaped because they can be countered and would allow for unique animations. Plus I don't know if there's some hidden dopamine receptor for hit confirm throws but it feels good to do

The stun game in doa4 is fine to me perhaps even better in some circumstances than later or early entries. 66P with Ayane stuns in neutral which is good for whiff punishment. Jann gets a 50-50 from 1K in neutral. Hayabusa 2H+K is a sit-down stun during stagger are some examples.

Also isn't it possible to do a Side-Step and perform any move you'd like independently after the side-step? With the addition of using it as keep away tool if necessary

Anyways I don't want to give people more than they can remember
there's a preview build of doa 4 that ended a stun prematurely if you try to throw a stunned player, I figured out that it's probably possible to implement something like this (there's a hit reaction entry for throw vs stun that's just always null) but taking away the safe throw (even though trying to throw somebody in stun is "wrong" according to the system logic) is actually controversial unlike the fake controversy of people insisting i should've tried to fix meter. I like the idea but it doesn't seem viable unfortunately.

right, you could always 8S and not press, but people don't because the side attack will usually work and it's really hard to know who has advantage when a 28ish frame animation makes a strike whiff.


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@raididiot that's a SE fast thing and it's more likely that i'd nerf kasumi's tbh
 

Radiance

Well-Known Member
The last time I fought you was in DOA5U and I whooped your ass. LOL

We've all lost to someone button mashing with Alpha-152 (alpha 152 btw lol) before in the beginning days of DOA5, online, just like we all lost someone button mashing with Eddy Gordo with Tekken just as we've all lost to someone button mashing in Soul Calibur with Maxi before. It doesn't make you good. Stick to writing nonsensical articles because most of the thing you've said in this thread has made no sense and is just you being a suck up and fanboying rather than offer anything substantial. I get it, writing front page DoA stories makes you feel important.
 

deathofaninja

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
News Team
We've all lost to someone button mashing with Alpha-152 (alpha 152 btw lol) before in the beginning days of DOA5, online, just like we all lost someone button mashing with Eddy Gordo with Tekken just as we've all lost to someone button mashing in Soul Calibur with Maxi before. Stick to writing nonsensical articles.

I had a feeling you would go there so:

Nonsensical is the meaning of your time in the FGC. You're spitting and living proof that someone can train with the best, be able to talk game, frame data, tools, and fundamentals to perfection and still miss the mark with any serious competition or offline gameplay. As far as making impact you are not even close to being on my level in any shape or form. You're jealous.

What's nonsensical about representing the community and the players and giving them a platform? I think you have a chip on your shoulder and despite doing nothing you think you are better than other people.

You're jealous that I didn't have to be good at the game to make impact and you always have been. Come back and call me nonsensical when you've actually done something yourself. My articles made it to media conglomerates in the game industry, I have more followers on Twitter than almost anyone in the DOA community and my stories have done a lot more than 1,000,000 views overall.

Let's compare bank accounts and see who is nonsensical. I don't like patting myself on the back but sit the fuck down.
 

Rob

The Dragon Shrine Maiden
Premium Donor
I may disagree with everything deathofaninja has said (and I'm pretty sure I do lol) but I think insulting him for what he's contributed to the site is wrong.

He's clearly passionate and supportive of the series (even if some of the articles come off as fanboy fluff), the players and of Team Ninja. His front page articles are pretty well written.

@deathofaninja hopefully no hard feelings with some of our exchanges here, but I do appreciate your efforts on making positive contributions to the community and doing the best with what you have (DOA news is less than breadcrumbs). What you are doing is worthwhile and I hope you continue.
 

deathofaninja

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
News Team
I may disagree with everything deathofaninja has said (and I'm pretty sure I do lol) but I think insulting him for what he's contributed to the site is wrong.

He's clearly passionate and supportive of the series (even if some of the articles come off as fanboy fluff), the players and of Team Ninja. His front page articles are pretty well written.

@deathofaninja hopefully no hard feelings with some of our exchanges here, but I do appreciate your efforts on making positive contributions to the community and doing the best with what you have (DOA news is less than breadcrumbs). What you are doing is worthwhile and I hope you continue.

Thank you. Do I take what he said personally? Hell, the fuck yes, but this is not uncommon with Radiance - he's made similar insults before and while I DO NOT like him, I tolerate him because he is a talented player; but I'm also not one to lay down and take a beating. I will always be prepared to defend myself in any situation.

This can also go to Rev. I think all of us can look at this ++ project and find something we don't like about it, but it's his vision and he's tried to show the community there are things you can do that go beyond what you're given.
 

Radiance

Well-Known Member
I had a feeling you would go there so:

Nonsensical is the meaning of your time in the FGC. You're spitting and living proof that someone can train with the best, be able to talk game, frame data, tools, and fundamentals to perfection and still miss the mark with any serious competition or offline gameplay. You're jealous.

lol yes, I do enjoy competition, but I never actually cared about "being the best". That's a gross exaggeration. I couldn't possibly be jealous of someone who feels accomplished writing articles (not making any money btw). I'm quite happy with my life, and my career, living nicely lol. You don't need to tolerate me for "being a talented" player. At the end of the day, if both this game/forum dies, life goes on. It's not that serious. I don't know what this is for you, validation, maybe? But it's just another hobby for me. Please make more status updates to show us all how much you care.
 

deathofaninja

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
News Team
lol yes, I do enjoy competition, but I never actually cared about "being the best". That's a gross exaggeration. I couldn't possibly be jealous of someone who feels accomplished writing articles (not making any money btw). I'm quite happy with my life, and my career, living nicely lol. You don't need to tolerate me for "being a talented" player. At the end of the day, if both this game/forum dies, life goes on. It's not that serious. I don't know what this is for you, validation, maybe? But it's just another hobby for me.

FSD has been ad-free for as long as I can remember, and we do that for the community and so that the site will always be presentable as something people can enjoy looking at without being pressed over ads that have nothing to do with the product. On my watch as long as Team NINJA is around Free Step Dodge will be around. Our donations either go to the website server costs or in some cases the tournament prize pots. Always try to make sure the community is getting the better dose than ourselves whether it be promoting a player to get flown to a major or simply recognizing the player in a write-up that doesn't go to tournaments much and could use encouragement.

My dream as a child was to be a part of DOA in some way, to interview Itagaki, to have a great place for a DOA player to go and for Team NINJA to get some fucking credit for the work they do. When I was 8 years old I wasn't thinking about how much money I could make.

Are we flexing though? I've been living my best life since 2015 when I graduated from college. I've worked with three major news networks, and I own a house. Dead or Alive has always been my passion off the clock and someday this site will generate money the right way. Mark my words. Growth is the most important thing to me and FSD's home page and my social accounts have grown even with DOA6 being on life support because I've put in effort, and I believed I could turn the 50 views I was getting into 1,000 views and I did even better than my own expectations.

In terms of DOA being poorly designed I think it comes down to preference. I prefer the DOA characters, the stages and the mechanics myself, but I never once thought DOA was for everyone. I think DOA6++ has offered more discussion than I originally thought possible, and I also apologize to @Rob for thinking too passionately on the opposite side of what he thought.

As far as the future of ++ Rev will either take into account all community feedback and compile it or there is the big possibility that every other person has their own ++ and their own take on DOA6. Some people will be forever locked into DOA6 vanilla and that's fine; other players that are bored will likely take matters into their own hands.

Here is Emann's take if you haven't seen it already; thought his video was put together:

 
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deathofaninja

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
News Team
boy i'm not reading all that =/

Good it wasn't for you. It was a disclaimer/rebuttal for anyone new reading that thought there might be something to what you originally wrote.

More new takes & gameplay videos on DOA6++ from fighters:

Hoodless 2hr Gameplay


Emann Fights 28min

 
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Rev_an

Active Member
some stuff went more smoothly than expected and i have some documentation on guardbreaks i didn't have before so for these retracted bass suggestions:
66P -2 GB
66P+K +3 GB
6P+KP +3 GB
1P+K +8 GB
46P +3 GB
66P applies a 30 frame GB stun, the shortest we know of so -2 would be a (potentially acceptable) timewarping

66p+k applies a 45 frame GB stun, the next longest one available is brad's 42 frame force-BT guardbreak 40 frames which would be +5, or again, a 2 frame time warp. I dislike stacking changes like that but warping the recovery would be reasonable.

6p+kp is a 35 frame GB stun, we can go up to 40 frames for +6 and then slow down the recovery 3 frames, idk 3 is a lot more than 2 sometimes. 32 -> 35 recovery

1p+k is 35 frames, can again do 40 for +11 and again 3 frames and i'm actually more grossed out making 23 recovery frames into 26

46p is also 35, yadda yadda 40 frames +5 might actually just do this one.

actually, maybe i'll just do all of these with no time warps (so, not the 66P change) and make nerfs in a month or two if necessary.

hey uh @Matt Ponton what does bass get at +11? is it nothing?
 

Rob

The Dragon Shrine Maiden
Premium Donor
I mean, he's one of only two who seems to want to use the available tools to make the game the way he wants to play it.

If you don't like his version, and you want to play with your own changes, you can make your own 6++ mod. What's stopping you?

Ah that meme of "if you don't like it, you can leave."

Why would I make another 6++ mod, which would be the 4th one (as the 3rd hasn't been released yet)? To further divide what's left of an extremely sparse active playerbase on PC? This current mod is already siphoning off players. Thanks for making a dead game even more dead.

I thought this mod was supposed to be a community driven project? Is that not the case? This is a discussion forum, which apparently "[prides itself] on offering unbiased, critical discussion among people of all different backgrounds."

If you don't want criticism of the mod, then don't make your mod or thread public.
 

Rob

The Dragon Shrine Maiden
Premium Donor
Don’t “you guys” me and lump me into some kind of box when you have zero idea of what’s beyond my profile picture. My most played DOA game ever was DOA2U which has the best stun game ever, STILL had stuns and holds, better balanced than DOA4 onwards (with the exception of the low hold and hold activation frames). They’ve been here for 22+ years.

I know what I prefer. But I also know WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF THE MOD what can be done, so I’m not going to suggest shit like “Make it like DOA2” - as much as I would like to, we don’t know how to do so. Most I can suggest is removing stuns from attacks that pushback too far regarding that idea, but I’m waiting for Update 1 of 6++ before I do that.

Say what you want about the community but when you speak to me about me you’re not going to generalise. You’ve been serially projecting and it’s getting annoying.

When I say “DOA without stuns and holds would be shit” I mean removing a system that’s been in place for this long would be weird / bad for the game because we can’t even imagine what the franchise would be without it (DOA1 exists but tell me when the last time you enjoyed that was)

THIS is what I mean, you reading that and basically placing “DOA without the DOA4 stun game would be bad” in my mouth and then making a statement such as DOA4 rotting my brain like I didn’t go back to playing DOA2U and play it for years until DOA5 dropped because I didn’t like it is some wild shit.

You literally don’t know me.

Okay so what? If it didn't have anything to do with you, then just ignore it. And yeah, I was generally speaking because most DOA players have trouble comprehending a fighting game that isn't Stun Or Alive 4++.

Lucky holds have been in the game since their inception. With such a system in place it’s just going to happen. Fighting games will fighting game.

Anything that reduces the luck from a 1v1 competitive game is a good thing.

“I” can’t do anything regarding the stun game since believe it or not - I don’t have any control in the mod and “I” am not working on the game.

“I” can only think what I think, and yes, I do think the stun game is capricious. Does that mean I can do anything about it?

No shit you can't do anything about it, but what's wrong with having this discussion? Who knows maybe revan likes an idea between our back and forth and tries to implement it in his mod.


I’ve been saying this actively for 10+ years. There’s still a risk element to the holds and you know what the risks are so I won’t explain.

Realistically the fix to this is reducing the chances you get to hold in stun (DOA2U/3 stun game) with less active frames and higher recovery frames, with a bigger HiC Throw window.

But such a fix will take months to figure out so somethings are best left untouched until TN miraculously decides to pick up DOA again for 7.

DOA is flawed but even if we took the time to fix all of them there’d still be more flaws to find. That’s simply too much work for one guy.

Now I’m done lol.

Yeah, I mean again it all goes back to what is the point of this mod?

The DOA6 flaws I've been yapping about, revan can't do shit about, so as far as I'm concerned, I'll just stick to vanilla unless some cool changes come around in a few months.

My biggest gripe with the mod is the character balancing. Outside some of the meme changes (Rajin and the NiCO 4F teleport), getting other players involved to balance a roster is an awful, terrible mistake. Like who the fuck are you to decide x character needs this tool, or y character needs this move nerfed? Sure, insight from character specialists is fine, but again it's so narrow. The guy spearheading this mod views the game from one character perspective.

Does DOA6 have perfect character balance? Of course not, not even close. But I'd rather deal with terrible balancing from the developer, than play something from biased self-appointed "experts" who only are concerned about buffing their own characters at the expense of others they don't care about.

The one positive thing here is at least Jann Lee's Dragon Kick hasn't been removed, unlike the other mod.
 

Rev_an

Active Member
My biggest gripe with the mod is the character balancing.
cap. You've been told before that it's a beta and that nothing character specific is final.
getting other players involved to balance a roster is an awful, terrible mistake.
that's rich coming from the guy whinging about iTs sUpPoSeD tO bE A cOmMuNiTy mOd.

and on that note just because it's not exclusively happening in this thread or because i'm trying to get you specifically to shut the fuck up about things you don't understand and to move on with your life doesn't make it not "the community".

The guy spearheading this mod views the game from one character perspective.
yeah that's why i'm making a bunch of tracking mids on characters i don't play safe at tip-range. That's why I put every old move back in that people tell me about and I can find inputs for. That's why i'm making sure my main doesn't have inappropriate natural combos. That's

that's why that crapo guy made suggestions for a dozen characters and I'm using a bunch of them.

that's why when raididiot had a cool idea for phase 4 that I turned it around in less than a day. and posted the clip in some discords.

balancing
by the way, here's you again proving that you're not qualified to have an opinion. You balance after the context is established. You don't know what the damage scaling is going to be, you don't know how much access to fatal stuns there will be, you don't know what the final environment object animation will be, you don't know if close hit bound will exist, you don't know how much control over launch height and refloating we'll have, you don't know every move that 's going to be in, you don't know if we'll figure out animation swaps, you don't know if somebody will convert .mot files from doa 5 into .g1a files that'll work in doa 6. You don't know what moves will keep the limbo stun property.

You don't know if I found the xml file that controls the movement pipeline to change free-step speed properly. You don't know whether the mod will require redelbe instead of merely being compatible with it.

You don't know if or how many of mila's tackle feint opportunities will mixup into backstep. You don't know how many teleport stances phase 4 will have on a given move.

You don't have a clue.

I don't know any of that stuff with 100% certainty either because this is a public beta. a work in progress. Just say directly if you don't know what that means.

Hayate's 236T currently lets him string into a limbo stun, that's certainly strong, and it might even be likely that I take it out eventually, but it hasn't proven to be A Problem™ yet and it doesn't make sense to spend time balancing things like that when something else about the game is subject to change and altering the context of that damage.

Say I make it slower, and later decide to make every throw slower and do more damage. Do i nerf it twice even though it's not out of line with other throws anymore? Maybe I'd do something to the launcher he gets out of that stun, or change the limbo stun hurtboxes again, there are dozens of moving parts involved that would invalidate any effort put into balancing. I should not have to explain to you that is a waste of time and effort.

system changes first, then balance within and between characters, unless it's blatantly unplayable.

Update 1 doesn't even have a dev build yet and you fucking complain about character balance in a proof of concept. again, please just state directly if you don't understand what that terminology means.

your expectations are completely unreasonable and misguided. you appear to have no concept of game development. It takes time to get to everything. You would, perhaps, accuse me of not caring about tamaki because she has no changes in the public beta but you would make that accusation without knowing what animations are available to her and without anything valuable to say about striking a balance between giving her new strings of her original moves and making her into momiji with offensive holds.

Go away, pay zero attention to this mod for six months or a year and then maybe you'll have a shot at saying something that's on the same planet as the rest of us.
 
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Rob

The Dragon Shrine Maiden
Premium Donor
Sure here's your idea of balance:

"I've never seen anyone do a Raijin in an online game, so it's ok if I buff this to 301 on HiC." Imagine the lack of foresight to keep that in and if the game was played seriously that everyone would be doing Raijins lmao

It's also clear you have no understanding of NiCO and you give her a 4F teleport. Before you tell others to get a clue, look in the fucking mirror lmao.

You don't need to establish anything to realize how utterly stupid that is.

Here's what you keep missing over, and over again. It's not about it being a beta and changing shit down the road. It's the very fact you included these nonsensical things in the release. You've killed any credibility right out the gate. It's your whole approach and thinking to it from the beginning. I've yet seen anything that says "My thinking behind this oki change is x y z", you're just doing random ass shit, like a surgeon who just amputates and staples limbs and hopes for the best.

If you wanted to make a crazy outlandish mod, those changes would be understandable, but that's not your intention.

What expectations? I have none.

Go ahead and make a different game that you like, but don't pretend it's better.
 
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DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Ah heyo, there is one particular bug that i'm not 100% sure if it's fixed in the retail version that could potentially be fixed in DOA6++ (?).

It's this:


Now i haven't played retail in about two years so unsure if this was fixed (video is old). If it is fixed, nevermind lol.
 
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Rev_an

Active Member
Ah heyo, there is one particular bug that i'm not 100% sure if it's fixed in the retail version that could potentially be fixed in DOA6++ (?).

It's this:


Now i haven't played retail in about two years so unsure if this was fixed (video is old). If it is fixed, nevermind lol.
uh idk who fixed it but it's working on lisa for me in open stance in the functionality build. could still be magic tip-range spacing to drop it but that kind of thing is fine as long as it's predictable.
 
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DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
it's working on lisa for me in open stance in the functionality build. could still be magic tip-range spacing to drop it but that kind of thing is fine as long as it's predictable.

Well see that's the thing, that bit from Kula is supposed to work on "any" stance (as shown in the video from multiple characters) with the exception on Lisa. Was even performed up close. It is only vs only 1 character so it's not a huge one, but yeah.

In addition, is there a resource guide on DOA6++ modding in itself on move editing etc.? I remember Project M and those MK builds where they had a step by step guide for a open public customizable version where people in the community were able to customize it on their own but they took off the online connectivity for legitimate reasons.
 
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