DoA5 counter hold system kinda repetitive?

[extravagant]

Hi everyone

I'm new to the DoA series and I have been only playing since launch date (9/25/2012). At first I had a huge inspiration to learn this game and get good. And recently I've manged to play a little bit skillful.

However I feel like the hold system is kinda repetitive. Why is there no back or forward dashes? It feels like most the time I'm just sandwiching myself in with the opponent and constantly playing this guessing game to predict an advanced counter.

I mean, there's almost no certainty in most aspects of the game. The blocking kinda sucks, so most the time you're just guessing high, mid, or low counter. I mean I get it, it's fun, but I think it's also geting kinda boring constantly h trying to learn each player's own unique patterns and counter it.

It's almost like the only way to win is to CPU exploit your opponent's patterns. Is this the part of the game that makes itself a great game of depth?

 

[damedame]

You need to learn your opponents patterns/weaknesses while you play them and adapt.

Noobs tend to complain that certain moves or things are overpowered, but everything can be punished. Your opponent dodging a lot with low holds? If you realize this, you can low throw him or launch him to counter it.

And you underestimate blocking. You probably should be using it a lot. Only hold when necessary IMO.

 

[Raansu]

It's a mixed bag. The game is still random in certain areas but there are guaranteed set ups thrown into the game in DoA5. But yeah, you're experiencing one of the main things that turns the majority of the FGC away from DoA because they still feel like they are being punished even after they break your defense. It's something that needs to be addressed and they had the right idea in the E3 build but I think they were too afraid to move in that direction especially since Japanese DoA players don't like that playstyle (one of the reasons they don't like 3.1)

With that said, DoA5 is still a solid fighter, it's just a different beast. You pretty much have to throw out any fundamentals you learned from other fighting games as they generally wont apply to DoA.

 

[Rikuto]

What you're describing is the basic hold hunter style of play that was prominent in DOA 4. Basically involving constant conditioning on your opponent, and then exploiting their tendencies all at once much like a harvest of high-counter throws.

In DOA 5 this style of play is still possible in most matchup combinations, and at lower levels it IS the most prominent style of play because lower level players are not properly utilizing their ways around the system. I would go so far as to say that most people who complain about DOA 5 being too similar to DOA 4 are not even aware of the options present to them in this game, or that "there is another way".

If we were to divide them up into different playstyles, at the classic 3D fighter end of the spectrum you have Kokoro, Rig, Akira and Ayane. These characters pretty much tap you once or twice and its 50% of your bar gone. They play the most similar to other 3D fighters and should be invested into heavily if you are looking to get around the hold system completely. Heavy spacing and banking around that one good hit ending the match.

For characters that punish the use of the hold system while still living inside of it you have Tina, Bass (though he ignores the stun game mostly) and Mila as the front runners. This playstyle caters to people to who want to feed off of a traditional DOA players RPS tendencies as part of their main strategy.

Characters that can abuse the hold system fall under Leifang and Bayman, primarily. They have their own strengths built in that make them a nightmare to fight on top of this though. Leifang has her constant sabaki's and deep-stunning lows while Bayman has his guard break/environmental game.

Then you have everyone else, who is either well a rounded DOA character that falls under the RPS system with no particular strengths or weaknesses (Hayabusa) or just crappy in general (Hayate/Helena).

Everyone, if played improperly, tends to fall back into RPS mindgames. This is likely what you are feeling. They don't have to be played that way unless the character is built for it though.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Hi everyone

I'm new to the DoA series and I have been only playing since launch date (9/25/2012). At first I had a huge inspiration to learn this game and get good. And recently I've manged to play a little bit skillful.

However I feel like the hold system is kinda repetitive. Why is there no back or forward dashes? It feels like most the time I'm just sandwiching myself in with the opponent and constantly playing this guessing game to predict an advanced counter.

-In anything out side of stun(stagger state) you are able to back dash(), forward dash(), crouch dash (), Free step and side step.

I mean, there's almost no certainty in most aspects of the game. The blocking kinda sucks, so most the time you're just guessing high, mid, or low counter. I mean I get it, it's fun, but I think it's also geting kinda boring constantly h trying to learn each player's own unique patterns and counter it.

-Certainty comes with knowing the game. If you get the prima guide, you will know what the disadvantage of attacks are on block, and will know when and when not you can get guaranteed punishment. You will also know when you can also evade as well as use crushing attacks. This will only come by knowing what your opponents attack attributes are. This is something you would have to deal with when learning any new 3d fighter.

's almost like the only way to win is to CPU exploit your opponent's patterns. Is this the part of the game that makes itself a great game of depth?

-You cant just jump into the game and think you will know everything right off the bat. Contrary to what many have believed, Doa is not as simple as many have made it out to be(at least on a competitive level).

 

[extravagant]

Of course I don't know everything and I don't expect to know everything about the game. I'm completely new to this game. However, I am starting to in fact catch up to some of the really good veterans. I don't have problems with new players, I just have problems with some of the veterans who have been playing with experience since DoA2 and whatnot.

Maybe I'm too used to Street Fighter. But yeah I will admit I'm a total noobie at this. I'll keep playing but man, the counters just get kinda repetitive.

 

[Rikuto]

Of course I don't know everything and I don't expect to know everything about the game. I'm completely new to this game. However, I am starting to in fact catch up to some of the really good veterans. I don't have problems with new players, I just have problems with some of the veterans who have been playing with experience since DoA2 and whatnot.

Maybe I'm too used to Street Fighter. But yeah I will admit I'm a total noobie at this. I'll keep playing but man, the counters just get kinda repetitive.

Sounds like you need to play someone in either the punishment end of the spectrum, or the classic 3d end.

No faster way to kill the counter system than to never let your have an opportunity to use it.

 

[extravagant]

You mean to attack in such a way that doesn't let them counter?

 

[Rikuto]

Precisely.

Extra are you on PSN or XBL?

I could potentially show you some stuff for Rig/Kokoro which ignores the hold system entirely, though I lack a mic for PSN.

 

[Brute]

Pick Ryu. Cut-off a predictable combo chain and watch as your enemy tries to counter the third strike. Izuna-Otoshi their ass.

 

[Bam of the Ppl]

Precisely.

Extra are you on PSN or XBL?

I could potentially show you some stuff for Rig/Kokoro which ignores the hold system entirely, though I lack a mic for PSN.

I think all that info Rikuto should be posted or summarized for new players. I know a ton of people starting up this game have given holds such a silly stigma. Of course, as the majority of people do, everyone thinks they are fairly competent when theyre starting out, so they think what they see is the truth. Information threads like that from veterans such as yourself will be instrumental in the growth of the competitive community imo.

 

[Ace Flibble]

I've seen this a lot before, especially when 3D fighting games were first coming out. 2D fighter players (e.g. Street Fighter and Guilty Gear) that come to 3D fighting games generally have a bit of a task getting used to the expanded movement and the switch from inputs being direction-heavy to command-heavy, and then DOA throws in the hold system too on top of the usual 2D-3D differences... it can seem very random.

The main thing is to slow down. DOA, more than any other fighting game, has a big emphasis on match psychology, especially when the match involves characters like Bayman and Tina who almost completely rely on baiting in various ways. There's more to it than simply memorising long combo strings and either standing block or crouch blocking. It's not random, it just feels that way probably because you're being faced with a whole bunch of new mechanics that you've not had to deal with in 2D series all at once and you're likely panicking when the match isn't going your way, trying to bulldog or trying to apply 2D tactics to a 3D game.

It's just the same as going from 3D to 2D, twitch FPS to tactical FPS, RTS to turn-and-tile strategy, etc. Hell, I see it a lot of time teaching people how to play guitar and bass, lots of people think that because they play one that means they can play the other. Nope, they're gonna sound like a beginner.
These things may seem similar on the surface but mechanically they are worlds apart. You need to go right back to basics and take it easy until you're fully comfortable with all the new things you're being faced with. Work on one thing at a time. Try to train yourself to not spam counter holds all the time. Then train yourself to be aware of placement within each stage, how to take maximum advantage of walls and slopes (or perhaps more importantly, how to not let your opponent take advantage of them).

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being new and frustrated. No matter how good you may be at another game, all that is thrown out the window when you pick up a new one. That's okay. Chill out, don't pressure yourself into being a tournament-level god in the first day, take the time to go into training mode and learn each new mechanic properly and most importantly, remember to have fun.

 

[shinryu]

To be fair, online sometimes really the only way out of some bullshit is a counter hold. Even with the the new patch, throw punishing just doesn't work most of the time; if you have to confirm they did something throw punishable then enter the throw there's good odds your lagged command will not actually register and execute in time to beat the pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp input from the other side. If a -4 throw can't punish you can damn sure bet a p isn't going to make it either. So a huge chunk of the attacker's calculus for move choice and the defensive game as it's meant to be played goes away, and you are reduced to counter-fishing. You can sure as hell still get around the stun game, but blocking Helena's-10 attacks over and over again and her just throwing them out with impunity gets real old real fast. Hence the degeneration into a counter hold and crush festival.

 

[Ace Flibble]

Well I think the key there is to remember that online play is for button-mashing fun, not for Serious Business play.

 

[shinryu]

Well, I wish I got in some more offline play, but for right now online is kind of it and it just sucks that you're forced to play so differently. At least it's playable as something closer to intended now.

Really, I think a lot of the bad impression of the game comes from online, where in fact a scrubby masher does have a good chance to beat an experienced player and mashing holds is sometimes the only defensive option. It doesn't help that this was all literally true online and off in DOA4. VF suffers from this as well (and honestly I've got to the point where I almost can't play it online since getting hit out of guaranteed stuff makes me throw my stick) but at least it's got enough of a (deserved) reputation as being amazing to overcome that. It's hard to appreciate the depth in the DOA engine when the only answer to "lol pppppppppppppp" retardation is to hold. And even that can be dicey.

 

[Prince Adon]

The problem is DOA hold system is a completely original thing so people coming from other fighters aren't used to it system and because they haven't adapted to soemthing new and different they shrug it off as something bad. It's a normal thing with humanity to be afraid of something different.

 

[shinryu]

The problem is DOA hold system is a completely original thing so people coming from other fighters aren't used to it system and because they haven't adapted to soemthing new and different they shrug it off as something bad. It's a normal thing with humanity to be afraid of something different.

Not to be overly pedantic, but I'm almost certain VF2 had reversals and certainly Tekken 2 did; I'm not sure if the latter predates arcade DoA, but I don't think you can say a reversal system is completely original the series. A universal reversal system and the interaction with throwing definitely is.

 

[Prince Adon]

Not to be overly pedantic, but I'm almost certain VF2 had reversals and certainly Tekken 2 did; I'm not sure if the latter predates arcade DoA, but I don't think you can say a reversal system is completely original the series. A universal reversal system and the interaction with throwing definitely is.

I meant it's original how DOA fighting mechanic is built around the hold system. I know Tekken/VF have counter system, but it's not a must like in DOA.