D.I.D. 8: Aftermath

[Jefffcore]

Here's the literal definition before I respond.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact

Frame data wise, she's one of the slowest in the game. Unless the value of numbers has changed in the past 1000 years. You can add in all the guess variables you desire, but the numbers are pretty constan and almost always not in her favor.

I used the slowest character in the game for a situation where she's at +0 in the quote you responded, so all you silly excuses wouldn't hold much ground.

Anyone can guess right and win, that's how this game is designed. Some do it a lot less, for no specific reason. Some do it a lot more, for same reasons. That's the major problem with this games balance right now.



She's not force teching you, you're teching to avoid the force tech. She has 0 advantage, just more guess work as she's just resetting the neuteral game.

If someone techs they're always at disadvantage. Doesn't matter.

You tech yourself to disadvantage, or you get force teched to disadvantage.

The set up doesn't look like it's so fast you can't react. From what I've seen it's pretty easy to see if they tech right away.

Edit: Unless I'm thinking of something else, I've never actually played her.

 

[DR2K]

If someone techs they're always at disadvantage. Doesn't matter.

The set up doesn't look like it's so fast you can't react. From what I've seen it's pretty easy to see if they tech right away.

Edit: Unless I'm thinking of something else, I've never actually played her.

There is no advantage. She's recovering from BKO 6p whiff and you have invincible frames from teching. You're not being forced to tech, you're teching.

What disadvantage is there in this scenerio?

Trust me, I know the definition. Nothing you have posted is close to it.

Except for the fact that the numbers won't add up in your favor.

They are not "guess variables." They are interpretive/categorical variables, not numerical ones. In other words, not only is relying on numbers alone a flawed analysis, but you have yet to numerically prove in a statistical study that any of your analysis is A) accurate B) fact and C) close to either, even disregarding any of the categorical variables that should be considering in analyzing a character's efficiency. Not even that would prove "fact," for numerous measurement reasons

Well I'll assemble a team of the worlds best scientists and we'll try to find a way to make slower moves work faster than faster moves. You're free to yell at the numbers in the guide in the meantime.

Basically, you're arguing that numbers alone can indicate how useful a character is

On how fast a character is, yes, lol. Not the specific factor in a characters usefulness. Characters that are slower have advantages that Helena does not have. You know higher damage output, safety, frame advantage, etc. . . silly things like that.

If you want to argue she's slow or bad or whatever: fine. But those are not fact.

Frame data wise, it is very much so. Your arguement isn't with me, it's with the arabic dudes that made the number system. Of course I'm an arab dude, that likes his numbers. . . but that's irrelevant.

 

[Allan Paris]

Moving posts from the tier list to this thread.

Continue on. . . .

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

There is no advantage. She's recovering from BKO 6p whiff and you have invincible frames from teching. You're not being forced to tech, you're teching.
What disadvantage is there in this scenerio?

What you are missing with her pseudo force tech traps is that if you know they are going to tech you don't do 6P and you begin your pressure as they are tech rolling, if you know they won't tech roll you do 6P and begin your pressure afterwards. The flaw to this set up is that if you wait to see if they tech you lose the frame advantage you need to continue your pressure.

It's a gamble whether or not they tech and if you guess wrong you either eat a wake up kick or lose frame advantage. This set up is useful against predictable opponents but it still is nowhere near as reliable as Tina, Bass or Bayman's guaranteed force tech set ups.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

What you are missing with her pseudo force tech traps is that if you know they are going to tech you don't do 6P and you begin your pressure as they are tech rolling, if you know they won't tech roll you do 6P and begin your pressure afterwards. The flaw to this set up is that if you wait to see if they tech you lose the frame advantage you need to continue your pressure.

It's a gamble whether or not they tech and if you guess wrong you either eat a wake up kick or lose frame advantage. This set up is useful against predictable opponents but it still is nowhere near as reliable as Tina, Bass or Bayman's guaranteed force tech set ups.

Yeah i just always use 6P, since normally my opponent thinks there at a disadvantaged even though my 6P whiffed and they just just block or counter. So i just continue the pressure as if they force teched. And i wonder why people acting like Helena is the only one with Psuedo force techs. Im pretty sure Kasumi, Gen fu and Hitomi have some pretty good ones too, i rather fight Helena in regards to force teching that those three. And Gen fu is the same as Helena, just land his slamming punch into a low kick, and he's basically a better version of Helena for force teching.

You can actually 2p her out of most of her bokuho transitions...too bad that only does like 5 damage lmao.

Its not the damage that your trying to do, its the fact that you took her out of her stance, which is her best tool.

 

[Marcio]

@All Helena players who still think that she is the worst character in the game
95% of the DOA community (North American, European, Japanese) don't agree with you.
Stop complaining!!! You sound almost as stupid as MaxDrago.
I tell you something: Helena doesn't need a buff. Helena doesn't deserve a buff. And Helena won't get buffed.
Deal with it. Be a man and accept the fact that she is no longer Top Tier as she was in DOA4. In DOA5 she is solid Mid Tier. Not more, not less.

 

[DR2K]

@All Helena players who still think that she is the worst character in the game
95% of the DOA community (North American, European, Japanese) don't agree with you.
Stop complaining!!! You sound almost as stupid as MaxDrago.
I tell you something: Helena doesn't need a buff. Helena doesn't deserve a buff. And Helena won't get buffed.
Deal with it. Be a man and accept the fact that she is no longer Top Tier as she was in DOA4. In DOA5 she is solid Mid Tier. Not more, not less.

Maxdrago complains that a character is better than they are without anything of substance, like you're doing now.

It's always funny whenever anyone says this they never have any information on Helena to back their statement up. Just about every single one in this thread. Whereas it's the complete opposite for the reverse arguement.

 

[bingsoo]

Ok, I have tried to refrain from participating in most of this community's arguments during the short time I've been a part of it. But with this reaction to Helena's win at a major, I just feel the urge to speak my mind. Take my opinion for what it is. DOA 5 is my first DOA game, and from the 2 months I've played it, I've had fun. I didn't care about any of the negative stigmas surrounding the game and its community. I liked what I saw from during the game's production, and decided to switch from MK9 to here, while still playing BB and P4A.

Helena was pointed out by numerous top players and much of the community as a low tier character when the game came out. Today, Helena won a major. The response?

"She is broken."
"She is OP."
"She is god tier."

Maybe that's true. Maybe it's not. But from my experience in other communities, when a character who was previously regarded as low tier wins a major tournament, people congratulate the player and his/her skill and knowledge of the character first.

In MK9, Scorpion was regarded as a low tier character for a long time. A player named Slips took Scorpion into top 3 at a major and pretty much everyone credited him for his skill and knowledge of a low tier. I don't know Scorpion's current tier rank since I quit the game for DOA 5, but seriously, if winning at majors is always going to result in "OMG that char is SO broken!" then you guys are just going to push TN to patch this game into a very broken, very stupid piece of shit.

I'm not saying Helena is low tier or top tier or anything. I'm just saying at least give credit to someone for using a char that a lot of people trashed, and won a major. Time will tell where Helena ranks in a tier list.

Grats to Mamba btw.

 

[Prince Adon]

@DR2K: The crap you guys consistently complain about is "I wish Helena was like she was in DOA4" instead of learning what makes her good in DOA5. If you crap with her just don't use her, but don't go yelling "buffs" for a character you don't even know if needs it. Obviously everyone else disagrees with you for a reason. I stop posting in the tier list thread because you people are laughable.

High Level played tournaments help determind people place on the tier because they're played at the highest level of play. People who yell out "broken" or "OP" are simply retarded and should slap themselves. All that was proven for now is that Helena is solid(did it really take this tournament for people to see this?). She is one of my top 3 and it doesn't take a genius to see this. We will see where she will end up "officially" in the future.

 

[DR2K]

The crap you guys consistently complain about is "I wish Helena was like she was in DOA4" instead of learning what makes her good in DOA5. If you crap with her just don't use her, but don't go yelling "buffs" for a character you don't even know if needs it. Obviously everyone else disagrees with you for a reason. I stop posting in the tier list thread because you people are laughable.

Or because you had nothing to add to other than name calling people you disagree with.

 

[Prince Adon]

Or because you had nothing to add to other than name calling people you disagree with.

If you think I'm "name calling" people you need to adjust your eyes and read carefully. My point is you all sounds like a bunch of scrubs whining about crap instead of learning. You all just complain about what's bad about Helena and makes her low tier. Obviously you guys didn't and don't know what's good about her and that's just not how a tier list is determind.

 

[Matt Ponton]

All I know is, I'd kill to have some unsafe attacks to Bass' string extensions. All of them can be interrupted or crushed, at least all of the good ones. It's practically why his offense is just poking.

 

[DR2K]

If you think I'm "name calling" people you need to adjust your eyes and read carefully. My point is you all sounds like a bunch of scrubs whining about crap instead of learning. You all just complain about what's bad about Helena and makes her low tier. Obviously you guys didn't and don't know what's good about her and that's just not how a tier list is determind.

You're free to actually add to the discussion, rather than continually name calling players.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

All I know is, I'd kill to have some unsafe attacks to Bass' string extensions. All of them can be interrupted or crushed, at least all of the good ones. It's practically why his offense is just poking.

I dont even think the owner of this site can change this suddenly new Helena thread around.

 

[Skilletor]

I watched the match. I saw a bunch of stuns and Rikuto guessing wrong in stun. Looked like DoA4. Any character could've done that. In fact, looks like how this game is played. It's the way the game has been at several tournaments now. It's how Ryujin won, it's how Lopedo won, it's how Master has won. It's how this E-Mann guy won.

Stun game rules everything around me. DoA4 is here to stay.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

I watched the match. I saw a bunch of stuns and Rikuto guessing wrong in stun. Looked like DoA4. Any character could've done that.

Seriously!! Thank you. Didnt we all agree that playing the stun game is so DOA4, now suddenly the best Helena player playing the stun game makes Helena broken because of a few low stuns. Black Mamba is one of the best Helena players, so i dont know why people didnt expect him to do so well.

 

[Prince Adon]

You're free to actually add to the discussion, rather than continually name calling players.

You're free to go offline and learn the game. Until than your bitching will remain irrelevant.

 

[Dallas1088]

I think people are just putting way too much stake into the stun game when it comes to Helena. She's not the only one who can play it, and in fact, IMO all characters play the same once you get an opponent in stun (doing random pokes to set up a high launcher, then hopefully force tech).

The first thing that's going to evolve in this game is how people play the neutral game. Once people start learning the matchup, respecting Helena's lows, and taking advantage of the frame data we have available we'll see where she really falls on a tier list. Until then, whether people choose to believe it or not, she will get away with things she shouldn't be (which is true of all characters, but this thread is focusing on Helena).

With everything I've heard I feel like Helena might have a similar gameplay evolution to Mileena from MK. People were talking about Mileena being top 5, with her crazy mixups, tiny hitbox, and great countering tools. It was only until much later in the game's life did people finally start learning to respect her mixups, her slow speed, and find that she had no real answer to pressure, and thus most consider her (at this point) to fall around B tier. Now, is that saying people can't play her great and do well (Pig of the Hut)? No. Was she overrated at the beginning? Yes.

 

[DR2K]

You're free to go offline and learn the game. Until than your bitching will remain irrelevant.

You can learn it online if E.mann is anything to go by. ^_-

 

[Prince Adon]

You can learn it online if E.mann is anything to go by. ^_-

Then why aren't you learning?