Online vs. Offline in DOA5: DOA4 All Over Again...

[CrimsonCJ]

Lmao this thread is hilarious. What happen to just playing games for fun? Thinking about who is better than somebody else would create more tension in the DOA community. Team Ninja didn't give me a handbook of who are the top players and what not to do/claim in this community. So I say everybody in the DOA community is a top player!

Come around to reading this. A much better advertising strategy, come to think of it!

 

[J.D.E.]

Because after the fact ElectrifiedMann did well in an offline tourney major, DrDogg STILL berated him in the good/bad games thread. Not only that, but he gave other innocent people flak too, despite not being directly sent any hatemail. Tokkosho's a good example.

This rubs many newcomers and unmotivated online players the wrong way (especially those who've known ElecMan for quite some time), and gives them a reason not to believe the more experienced offline competitive players are not being elitist when they say they're not trying to be. This is why Virtua Mima was upset with DrDogg and currently doesn't think very highly of him a few days back. Hell, this is probably why Steady G is feeling uneasy with the community as a whole.

Sure, you can say they need to "grow a backbone" all you like, but can you honestly expect that from just everyone? Hell no. They'll just look the other direction. Whether you want to accept it or not, people handle things in different ways. If people don't mind the harshness, more power to them. But at the same time, be more vigilant at acting more welcoming, 'cause not everyone was born being treated harshly when they did nothing wrong.

If people that are supposed to lead by example just took a chill pill and stop writing diaries about how frustrated they were playing someone online when that someone didn't do jack shit other than play said person for fun, maybe people will come to terms about things like this much quicker than usual. Collect your thoughts before you take obvious online frustrations out on innocent people. You never know, that could be one more person you demotivated to travel offline.

If this sounds like "flamebait" to you mods, then that's on y'all. That's not my intention, and I hope you understand that. I had to get that off my chest. It's been on my mind for quite some time now, and it's what I seriously felt in my heart I had to get out there, because to some extent, I believe it's part of the cause of the current discord at hand.

I got what you were saying on facebook as far welcoming player btw Awesmic. It' like I said before. High level players are human just like we are, but they deserve their respect. That's all.

 

[prototypetom]

You're mainly debating semantics. We use the term "competitive" because that's what tournament players are generally called. This term came about long before online play was the norm and refers only to those players who are competitive (travel to tournaments) offline.

I totally understand some people not being able to travel, and only having online to play. I also understand those players wanting to participate in tournaments and confirm/test their skill. You can do all of this online, however you must limit your statements to online.

For instance, if I'm the best Bass player online and I win all of the online tournaments, I can safely say, "I'm the best online Bass player". Now on this site you may get a little bit of push back because so many people don't take online seriously, so you may want to add, "...I'm not saying anything about offline, only online", or something of that nature. I don't think that's asking too much.

yeah, because I think semantics are as much of a part of this whole issue as lag or entitlement. And as the last part of your reply to me shows.

Just read the bickering in this thread, nobody wants to listen, it's all defence defence defence on both sides. There is of course a very valid and correct point at the heart of the offline>online position. but people defending online, for the most part, aren't arguing that point. They're defending their own views against the other subjective nonsense that comes with the deprecating language. it sounds a lot like some people don't want people to just accept the offline game is a cleaner playing field, no, they want them to accept online means nothing at all. Not that online isn't as good as offline, but actually 100% meaningless for anything apart from "practice".

the harder and more aggressively people fight to draw this line the harder it is to cross. Someone even said the community was plagued and the series would be dead if people everyone thought online mattered (paraphrasing perhaps). come on, what keeps the series healthy is people wanting to play it and there's a whole range of factors in that. The offline playing community of course plays it's part... but it's not the be all and end all. its actually a safer proposition the other way around, the series being strong means the offline community can be strong - because people want to take part in it. the questionable attitude of some digging this divide is completely counter productive - if someone cares about offline, they ought to be falling over themselves embracing the online hoard, not spitting on them.

trash talk just leads to more trash talk. i'd like to think the goal here is to have a general acceptance and understanding of what makes offline a more refined playing experience. then the trash talk will be easier to shoulder for tournament players and put down to the simple fact a lot of people on the internet act like morons. offline play can command the unique respect it deserves, and people playing online can enjoy it for competative merit it does have - and except it's shortcomings.

and what would really help is the right language - and some having a less rabidly binary mindset. (both sides i'm sure).

having said all that, i don't really do facebook, so perhaps something going on there really is truely intolerable.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

and what would really help is the right language - and some having a less rabidly binary mindset. (both sides i'm sure).

If only this were the case! As it stands, multiple people who have attended and are planning to attend tournaments are reacting negatively to these kinds of cries for "respect". One is thinking about not going to an offline tournament he is pledged to go to due to the tenor of the establishment. Why go to places where you find people who are so wildly insecure about their placement in the jungle?

 

[MSP]

High level players are human just like we are, but they deserve their respect. That's all.

This is absolutely true. The problem is an apparent disagreement as to whether a 'high level player' or 'skill' can be determined solely from online fights, or if offline fights are needed.

The problem is when you take your online wins and assume that they are a good measure of skill. They are not.

I'd argue that, given enough fights online, a skill level can be roughly determined. It's certainly not perfect, and offline is a more precise way to determine that level, but online is still valid in a general sense. If your sample size of online fights is large enough, and your winning percentage is high enough, that is a pretty good indicator that you are a high-level (skilled) player, and that you will probably win a good percentage of your offline fights as well. Will it be the same percentage? No, it will probably be lower, given that there are valid differences between online and offline. But, man, if you've had 30,000 online fights and won 80% of them, you mean to tell me that means nothing? I can't agree with that - the statistics bear out that you're, most likely, a high-level fighter.

You cannot claim to be better than another player if you have never played them offline.

But this seems to happen quite a bit. From both the online and the offline players.

trash talk just leads to more trash talk. i'd like to think the goal here is to have a general acceptance and understanding of what makes offline a more refined playing experience. then the trash talk will be easier to shoulder for tournament players and put down to the simple fact a lot of people on the internet act like morons. offline play can command the unique respect it deserves, and people playing online can enjoy it for competative merit it does have - and except it's shortcomings.

and what would really help is the right language - and some having a less rabidly binary mindset. (both sides i'm sure).

Yes.

 

[MSP]

It's been 10 years and people are still arguing about this. Online players who want the same respect as those who put their money, time, and lives on the line to support their community, and are upset when they aren't given it.

There sure is a hell of a lot of effort that goes into organizing a community.This indeed deserves respect - a ton of respect. I've never done a gaming event, but I've been involved with organizing some community functions. Man, that stuff takes a lot of work. I'd argue that organizing the community is even more respectable than being good at the game (though I suppose that the organizers of the community and those who are good at the game are largely the same)

So, big ups to those who put in the time and effort to make the offline scene / this forum / strategy guides / etc. an actual thing.

 

[DrDogg]

1) Online does count. It just has lag that can screw things up. But that doesn't mean all player skill goes out the window. And what THAT means, is that no, you don't get to just claim "online doesn't count" to make excuses for when you lose. Because hey, guess what, misreads happen offline, too. Only when a match is unbearably laggy to the point where you can't even move, does it not count.

Let's address this post one section at a time. I get what you're saying, but you need to look at things from the perspective of the offline, competitive, top player. It's a very different perspective compared to what you have, and it's not about being an elitist.

The first thing you're not understanding is that offline players aren't complaining about the lag or even losses. The ONLY problem is when people take online wins to indicate they are better than someone. Now, it's VERY possible that the online player is better. It's just that in the unstable environment of online play, it's not a good proving ground for this.

NBA games are not played outside in windy areas. Professional golf and baseball aren't played when it's pouring rain. What counts is when you play in the best possible conditions. That is not online.

2) Online community is generally better than offline, since the "ragers" are unique to the FGC in that they are present in both offline AND online. I mean, you can just look through this site (or this thread) and see that a lot of the "offline" players are elitist, and that turns a lot of people off from caring to try local tourneys and stuff. You get more "regular people" online, who are generally a LOT friendlier than the standard tourneygoer.

I can understand where you're coming from with this. However, keep in mind that our "elitist" attitudes don't crop up until an online player starts boasting about his online wins. To the offline player, this is where they are being disrespectful. It's something that does not happen offline and an argument that would not occur if the online players were a bit more humble about their online wins.

However, you saying that online players are friendlier tells me you haven't been to many offline events. I've had WAY more fun at offline tournaments than I've had dealing with rage quitters, pullers, people who pick EotE every single time, and people who win by the skin of their teeth, spamming lows that are virtually unblockable, then saying they're the best of the best.

It's about respect. After an online match, there's little respect from the opposing player in many, many cases (not all though). After an offline match, everyone goes out to eat on the winner of the tournament. So many laughs have been had during the after-tournament meal that you completely miss out on online.

Aka, yes, online can be laggy. But "lag" doesn't mean "unplayable." Lag can range anywhere from minor framerate to completely unplayable. But unless its UNPLAYABLE, you don't get to just call mulligan and say online doesn't count, and player skill online means nothing. Just because you can't do your standard combos doesn't mean the game sucks, it means you do, switch tactics and adapt. If one thing doesn't work, try another. Its only when NOTHING works, that it goes into "doesn't count" territory. And "missed the timing" doesn't fall into "doesn't count" territory.

To you, "minor framerate" is completely playable. To a seasoned offline veteran who relies heavily on their reaction time, that's unplayable. I rely on my reactions as much as possible because I cannot stand guessing, especially in situations when I don't have to guess (blocking a low for example).

Online, in the very best possible connection for DOA5, you cannot block most lows on reaction. To me, that is unplayable. To a seasoned tournament veteran, that is unplayable. To you, that's fine and people just need to adapt. But I implore you to look at it from our point of view. Offline you can block that low on reaction, online you have to guess it's coming. When you react properly, you are never wrong. When you guess, you can and will be wrong. That's a huge difference.

Again, I look toward Helena. Even in the best possible online connection, she can mount a nonstop offense. There's nothing you can do about other than guess the proper hold and HOPE it comes out in time. Offline, I don't have to guess at all and I can play against her MUCH better.

Again no prove for anything you just said you just expect everybody to belief you lol. I would recommend we post-pone the discussion of this matter to a later date when we have more tournament results(online or offline). Maybe then we could have a more meaningful discussion. Because right now it's all just TALK with no prove or backup.

The issue with providing the proof that you seek is that most online players who talk, don't show up to an offline event... ever. It's only a very few online players (who talk) who actually show up to an offline tournament. In addition, the online players who talk, then actually show up and get stomped on, are quickly forgotten. I know it's happened many times in other communities, but I couldn't tell you the name of a single online player that this happened to because it was quickly forgotten and the online player is never heard from again.

You have to remember, the DOA community has a very small offline scene (we're trying to change this). Most of the players who show up to majors are online players because the community is 95% online players. But many of these players don't talk about how good they are in public. It's only in private rooms out of sight of most of the community.

For example, did you know that Hades has been saying he's the best Rig player? Did you know that he's never been to a major and refuses to go to one that's outside of his small regional area. He won't go to Final Round, he won't go to Winter Brawl, he won't go to SoCal Regionals and he won't go to any IPL events. Yet he claims he's the number one Rig player. Unless you pay attention to the Rig forums, you probably wouldn't even know that.

This is what I was talking about.. And then you people wonder why others don't want to listen. This attitude has to go. If you claim you're so knowledgeable, you should be able to explain things without resorting to aggressiveness. Going around calling people a nobody and saying they would be a good riddance is not exactly the best way to make them understand something. People are only open to understanding something when they are not in defense mode. By putting them there, you're achieving the exact opposite of what you want. Well.. Assuming you want the community of this game to grow anyway, because sometimes it really looks as if that's not really the goal here, but something else.

The first post in this topic welcomes players to online and agrees that they should play. It says nothing bad about online and only references the people who try to use online wins to prove their skill. It's not aggressive at all and tries to understand all points of view. Yet, as you can see from many of the replies here, the online players lashed out. So I could take your above statement and say the same thing about online players.

Pretty damn sure Maximilian does.

If you watch his stuff you'll see that not only is he NOT an online warrior, but he tells people to go to tournaments. If you ask him directly, he'll tell you that online is not a proving grounds for anything. The DOA community (and to a lesser extent, the MK community) are pretty much the only fighting game communities that still have this debate. Go post something about online having meaning on SRK and see what happens. If you think the offline players are disrespectful in this thread, you'd be shocked by the SRK reaction to this. It is simply not accepted ANYWHERE in the fighting game community.

If your sample size of online fights is large enough, and your winning percentage is high enough, that is a pretty good indicator that you are a high-level (skilled) player, and that you will probably win a good percentage of your offline fights as well.

I'll use my Helena example once again.

Any below average Helena player can rack up a win percentage of 80% or higher online. It's not difficult because she is almost impossible to interrupt online. With only a small amount of knowledge, you can lock someone down, giving them virtually no options to counter attack. If this same person played the same way offline, a skilled player would decimate them.

One more time... I'm not saying online players cannot be good. What I'm saying is that online is not a good way to prove this skill. Another quick example: 90% of the attacks in DOA5 are unsafe. Online, that number drops to about 15%. How is that a good indication of how good you are when you can't punish almost every unsafe attack?

 

[Jefffcore]

I agree with you that the game is new and people might have trouble fighting against some new characters. And i could understand if you made this statement and you referred to an pre-launch tournament or the release party tournament. But Mamba(who i would assume knows his main character pretty well)lost to bladez very badly when he picked Helena. As a conclusion to the later i would say that it wasn't the character knowledge that made Mamba lose rather it was the skill difference between the two players. And let me add that bladez played the same way against Mamba as he did against swifteye, meaning unsafe. And even tough mamba is a top offline player and knows the character he didn't or couldn't use his let's say "offline options" which he probably couldn't have been able to use online. So why didn't he use his offline options and punish the heck out of bladez?

Just because it's his main doesn't mean he has practice with the match up. People don't play Mila, so I'm not used to it. There's a certain amount of muscle memory that gets developed. I've played them both, and I can tell you Mamba is the better player by far.

Mirror matches are never a good gauge of player skill

 

[Rikuto]

Pretty damn sure Maximilian does.

He is respected because he is an educator and an entertainer. Not because he plays online.

 

[MSP]

For what it's worth, I wouldn't consider myself 'good.' Maybe just 'okay.' I do enjoy the game enough to sign up for an FSD account, anyway.

I can understand where you're coming from with this. However, keep in mind that our "elitist" attitudes don't crop up until an online player starts boasting about his online wins. To the offline player, this is where they are being disrespectful. It's something that does not happen offline and an argument that would not occur if the online players were a bit more humble about their online wins.

However, you saying that online players are friendlier tells me you haven't been to many offline events. I've had WAY more fun at offline tournaments than I've had dealing with rage quitters, pullers, people who pick EotE every single time, and people who win by the skin of their teeth, spamming lows that are virtually unblockable, then saying they're the best of the best.

The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory at work! LOL

For example, did you know that Hades has been saying he's the best Rig player? Did you know that he's never been to a major and refuses to go to one that's outside of his small regional area. He won't go to Final Round, he won't go to Winter Brawl, he won't go to SoCal Regionals and he won't go to any IPL events. Yet he claims he's the number one Rig player. Unless you pay attention to the Rig forums, you probably wouldn't even know that.

It looks like he's got a win ratio of near 90% with Rig per the Win Ratio thread. Now, if that's with like 15 matches, then BFD, so what. But if it's a lot of matches, that evidence becomes more compelling, and I can infer that he's probably pretty good with Rig. I'm not trying to white knight for the guy, I'm just trying to make a statistical argument. It certainly doesn't prove he's 'the best of the best,' but it tells us something.

This seems like it would hold true for offline events too. If some guy from Paducah, Kentucky comes in to a tournament woofing and gets rolled, he certainly wasn't 'the best of the best.' Even placing once doesn't meet the threshold. It's only sustained dominance that shows you're truly good.

To me, if you can sustain that dominance over enough online matches, even if you've never taken your game offline, it seems reasonable to conclude that, yeah, you're pretty good. Not literally number one, since it truly isn't the same game. But even if it's not exactly the same game, there's enough skill transference that it's going to be close.

Online, in the very best possible connection for DOA5, you cannot block most lows on reaction. To me, that is unplayable. To a seasoned tournament veteran, that is unplayable. To you, that's fine and people just need to adapt. But I implore you to look at it from our point of view. Offline you can block that low on reaction, online you have to guess it's coming. When you react properly, you are never wrong. When you guess, you can and will be wrong. That's a huge difference.

This is absolutely true, and it's absolutely frustrating. But if you were take those online misfire incidents as a whole, I'd guess they work out in your favor as often as against you. Except for...

I'll use my Helena example once again....

Truthfully, I don't see a lot of her on PSN (maybe I'm hanging out in the wrong lobbies!), and I don't play her, so I can only go by what I've read. It seems like she might be an extreme case of the way the mechanics of the game change when playing online. From what I've seen, she can mount a near unstoppable offense offline as it is; it just that it gets much, much worse when online? Does this really hold true with other characters?

Again, I'm not good, but I do enjoy playing, and learning. I'm certainly not dumb enough to think that I'm better than some of the well-knowns on the board. I'd get rolled, online or offline. Cheers.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

One more time... I'm not saying online players cannot be good. What I'm saying is that online is not a good way to prove this skill.

To whom and for what possibly useful end?

If the point of this is to sell the value of offline events, it's having the exact opposite effect.

 

[Raansu]

It looks like he's got a win ratio of near 90% with Rig per the Win Ratio thread. Now, if that's with like 15 matches, then BFD, so what. But if it's a lot of matches, that evidence becomes more compelling, and I can infer that he's probably pretty good with Rig. I'm not trying to white knight for the guy, I'm just trying to make a statistical argument. It certainly doesn't prove he's 'the best of the best,' but it tells us something.

This seems like it would hold true for offline events too. If some guy from Paducah, Kentucky comes in to a tournament woofing and gets rolled, he certainly wasn't 'the best of the best.' Even placing once doesn't meet the threshold. It's only sustained dominance that shows you're truly good.

To me, if you can sustain that dominance over enough online matches, even if you've never taken your game offline, it seems reasonable to conclude that, yeah, you're pretty good. Not literally number one, since it truly isn't the same game. But even if it's not exactly the same game, there's enough skill transference that it's going to be close.

You act like this is some amazing accomplishment.

GRADE: A+(44009)
TITLE: HITOMI VETERAN
TITLE: JANN LEE VETERAN
TODAY'S RESULTS
TOTAL PLAY TIME: 2:19
ONLINE PLAY TIME: 2:10
FIGHT TYPE: 33
WINS: 27
GP CHANGE: +2209
TITLES OBTAINED: RIG VETERAN

GRADE: S-(61583)
TITLE: HITOMI VETERAN
TITLE: JANN LEE VETERAN
TODAY'S RESULTS
TOTAL PLAY TIME: 4:25
ONLINE PLAY TIME: 3:54
FIGHT TYPE: 68
WINS: 56
GP CHANGE: +3691
TITLES OBTAINED: POWER BLOW MASTER

GRADE: S(75207)
TITLE: MID BOSS
TITLE: SCRUB
TODAY'S RESULTS
TOTAL PLAY TIME: 5:38
ONLINE PLAY TIME: 5:28
FIGHT TYPE: 87
WINS: 76
GP CHANGE: +6106
TITLES OBTAINED: JANN LEE MASTER

GRADE: S+(79889)
TITLE: MID BOSS
TITLE: SCRUB
TODAY'S RESULTS
TOTAL PLAY TIME: 2:05
ONLINE PLAY TIME: 2:02
FIGHT TYPE: 30
WINS: 27
GP CHANGE: +1837
TITLES OBTAINED:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/lance-chilson/dead-or-alive-5/10151349674414245
https://www.facebook.com/notes/lance-chilson/dead-or-alive-5/10151332248549245
https://www.facebook.com/notes/lance-chilson/dead-or-alive-5/10151311451859245
https://www.facebook.com/notes/lance-chilson/dead-or-alive-5/10151272450679245

Whoopdie fucking doo. I can beat up on online scrubs all day too. In the end it still doesn't mean jack shit, and at best I still only consider myself an average player at DoA.

 

[Deleted member 473]

 

[Adamleelight]

This thread is the real "Fighting entertainment"

 

[Awesmic]

People won't listen. They taking the stuff you say to heart & think you're being an "asshole" when you really ain't.

You're dad-gummed right I would've taken it to heart if you consistently give off the vibe you're being an asshole. Compared to the consistently nice guy who's just as knowledgeable about how things work around here, who do you think the newcomer's gonna listen to first? Surely not the former. This is why you see me and a few others being the latter when the opportunity comes.

Shoot, I bet if it was Swoozie making the OP instead of DrDogg, I guarantee even the most seemingly stubborn of newcomers and online warriors would actually make an effort to be civil and actually listen, as friendly as the guy has always been. In fact, I'm putting my own dad-gummed Christie hentai manga by Bakuretsu-Fusen on the line.

 

[HiguraShiki]

I find it so friggin funny that the majority of the online defenders are all

1) Mostly people who never participated in offline events

2) People who aren't even good at the game. As evidence I will use this

For what it's worth, I wouldn't consider myself 'good.' Maybe just 'okay.' I do enjoy the game enough to sign up for an FSD account, anyway.

Yet try to talk as if they know about the game.
3) Constantly claiming that top players are insulting them in this thread when they aren't and throw actual insults, not imaginary ones such as disagreeing with someone, but actual insults such as Webhead's posts on this thread.

4) Feeling it is so important to gain credit for their online achievements and demand to be respected by everyone.

5) Somehow feeling they know more about the game by stating opinions such as "(So and So) Character is good because IF you land an attack, you do good damage"

6) Again somehow feel they know more about the game and then go off trying to balance the game with stupid ideas, such as holding in mid air in order to stop juggles, provided none other than Delagon who guess what, is trying to defend online players.

7) Claim people are picking on them when top players prove their information false.

8) Constantly claiming someone is a cheap player by "spamming" certain moves and winning, moving away from them too much "aka turtling", trying to do "The same boring juggles", talking a whole bunch of bullshit about how good they are and how they body all the top players, do not attend events to prove their worth, and then CONTINUE to claim they are the best players and consistantly annoy the hell out of everyone on the community, complaining that a person "does not fight with honor", throws too much, blocks too much, etc.

Maybe if you guys payed attention to all these stuff, you would realize why you morons are annoying most of the community. You guys act like idiots then wonder why everyone is yelling at you. Everyone is yelling at you simply because you act stupid and we want to shut you up.

 

[Chaos]

My stance on all this is pretty well-known, if only because I make a point to travel for tournaments quite frequently. I don't feel that I have anything terribly substantial to add to any of this that DrDogg didn't already spell out for everyone to read in the original post. Several folks have touched on a couple of other points that are also solid. But let's make sure we keep things focused, here.

This topic has traditionally been incredibly volatile in our community (and I still have no idea why other than pure ignorance) and the entire mod team NOT immediately locking this is likely due to the fact that not only do we agree with many of the points made, but we also agree that it's a conversation that should be allowed to happen in a constructive manner. None of us have really discussed it but that'd be my best guess. With that in mind, let's avoid sarcastic responses and non-responses. If you can't contribute to the conversation here in a rational manner, don't post.

If you post just to get the topic locked, my response will be a warning, your post being deleted, and letting things continue. I'll get more creative from there. None of us enjoy locking threads, except for me on Tuesdays and Rikuto generally all the time. But we've all been around long enough to see what happens when rampant stupidity becomes the norm, and anyone that's been a part of the community for longer than three or four years knows exactly what I'm talking about. The shadiness and behind-closed-doors-style management is gone. I'd like to think the community is actually better for it and that all of that shit is done. So let's keep this conversation going with the same level of professionalism it was started with and, for the most part, has continued with.

I agree on your statement, lets keep the conversation on a muture level and leave unnecessary arguments out of this thread.

 

[whamwham]

I agree on your statement, lets keep the conversation on a muture level and leave unnecessary arguments out of this thread.

Says the guy who called all online-supporters a dumbass. Way to be mature there.

For those that may be trying to make a point, you sure as hell aren't convincing others if you're telling others to either shut up or call people names. Yeah, people are REALLY going to listen to you then. I think Awesmic made a great point about people listening if you're actually more friendly rather being so hostile. Trying to convince others while shoving insults down people's throat isn't going to work and more often it will just give more backlashes.

There's always idiots in the internet bragging about how great they are, but I don't understand why you pros take all that shit so seriously. Does it really strike a nerve that much that someone brags so much on the internet? Just ignore the idiot and be done with it. Until they got things to prove by showing up offline, why go so far as to shut them up? It's like you guys want to feed a fucking troll or something.

Also, I'm not taking any sides as I think this whole argument is pointless and another reason why so many people are put off in trying anything new.

 

[HiguraShiki]

Says the guy who called all online-supporters a dumbass. Way to be mature there.

Most online-supporters are honestly just plain idiots.

 

[whamwham]

Most online-supporters are honestly just plain idiots.

Because they disagree with you? I wouldn't call that idiocy, but rather just a different viewpoint or opinion.

But hey, if you want to call them all idiots, power to you my man! And you wonder why people get so riled up easily.