Xbox360 1.03 patch delayed until February

[Dr. Teeth]

I had a look a DOA3 and every move of Helena's that's stuns now stunned back then with the exception of like a few moves. What exactly am I missing about this let's go back to DOA3 style stuns?

Somebody like Mr. Wah or VirtuaPai could definitely explain it better, but I'll give it a shot. In DOA 5, how many times do you have to stun someone to get a critical burst? Anywhere from 3 to 4 times? In DOA 3, try deep stunning the opponent that many times and you'll find that they often fall down after around two stuns. Obviously it depends on what moves you do, but you'll clearly be able to see that 3 just doesn't allow you to stun as many times in a row as 5 does.

Next, stun once in DOA 5 and launch, then stun once in DOA 3 and launch. I'm almost positive you'll see the difference in launch height. Because the launchers gave you such awesome height in DOA 3, there was no need to stun the opponent repeatedly to get max height. You could certainly do it if you wanted to, but again, your opponent is going to fall down in like 2 hits anyways, so what's the point? The stun mixup game is just an unnecessary risk in 3, but it's essential in 5.

Also, since you mentioned Helena, you should notice that she has more unholdable stuns in 3 than she does in 5 (I think). 88/22P is a limbo stun, 6P is a limbo stun, 33K is a sitdown stun that guarantees 33P, etc. The same moves might stun in both games, but they don't give you the same kinds of stuns. I wrote a guide to 3.1 Helena in the DOA 3 section that might be worth checking out if you want to compare her in both games. I don't play her anymore in 5, so I don't know what stuns she has in that game.

EDIT: Here's VirtuaPai explaining the difference much better than me: http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa5-for-ps-vita.2093/page-8#post-71604

 

[grap3fruitman]

DOA++/DOA2/DOA3: Stun > Launch > Max Juggle
DOA4/DOAD: Stun > Stun > Stun > Stun > Launch > Max Juggle
DOA5: Stun > Stun > Stun > Critical Burst > Launch > Max Juggle

Granted, some of the stuns in DOA5 are un-holdable for X amount of frames so it's slightly more tolerable but not by much.

 

[Raansu]

I had a look a DOA3 and every move of Helena's that's stuns now stunned back then with the exception of like a few moves. What exactly am I missing about this let's go back to DOA3 style stuns?

The stuns themselves are not the problem. You could always play the stun game, even in DoA3.1. The difference was choice compared to forced. In older DoA games you "could" play the stun gave but you didn't have to. In DoA4 and DoA5 (while 5 is not as bad as 4, its still there) you don't have a choice in the matter. With the added stun threshold system you HAVE to play the stun game to maximize you damage. This in turn is punishing the attacker while in older DoA games you didn't need to stun over and over. You could get one counter hit and launch if you so wished. It created a better meta game and properly rewarded a smart player.

As you can tell in this video, the differences are pretty significant. The only major exception is that Bass, who is still forced to play the stun game, is fortunate enough to have setups that let him reach the threshold without worrying about the hold. If more characters could do this, I would have less issues with the threshold system. However, the majority of the cast does not have this luxury and has to play RPS with the stun game.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

The stuns themselves are not the problem. You could always play the stun game, even in DoA3.1. The difference was choice compared to forced. In older DoA games you "could" play the stun gave but you didn't have to. In DoA4 and DoA5 (while 5 is not as bad as 4, its still there) you don't have a choice in the matter. With the added stun threshold system you HAVE to play the stun game to maximize you damage. This in turn is punishing the attacker while in older DoA games you didn't need to stun over and over. You could get one counter hit and launch if you so wished. It created a better meta game and properly rewarded a smart player.

As you can tell in this video, the differences are pretty significant. The only major exception is that Bass, who is still forced to play the stun game, is fortunate enough to have setups that let him reach the threshold without worrying about the hold. If more characters could do this, I would have less issues with the threshold system. However, the majority of the cast does not have this luxury and has to play RPS with the stun game.

So if every character could link unholadable stuns like Jann Lee's pre patch F+K > 1PK > CB would that be okay? It grants maximum height in 3 hits and is really only holdable on one hit unless you can guess the opponents first attack.

 

[grap3fruitman]

So if every character could link unholadable stuns like Jann Lee's pre patch F+K > 1PK > CB would that be okay? It grants maximum height in 3 hits and is really only holdable on one hit unless you can guess the opponents first attack.

Why would you go that convoluted route instead of just making it how it used to be?

I love it when you produce content.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Somebody like Mr. Wah or
Also, since you mentioned Helena, you should notice that she has more unholdable stuns in 3 than she does in 5 (I think). 88/22P is a limbo stun, 6P is a limbo stun, 66K is a sitdown stun that guarantees 33P, etc. The same moves might stun in both games, but they don't give you the same kinds of stuns.

Are those completely different moves in DOA3? Because im imagining those moves in DOA5, and i cant imagine 6P, and 66K causing those stuns. And at the time when DOA3.1 came out, did everyone realize how great of a DOA it was?

 

[Matt Ponton]

And at the time when DOA3.1 came out, did everyone realize how great of a DOA it was?

No, it wasn't until a year after DOA3 came out did word of the system changes reach America. Prior to that Europe was focusing on the Tag system, and Japan I honestly can't speak much for. Sales of the Xbox obviously would say there was little to no offline tournament support in Japan.

For a few months, Bill "Tom Brady" Menoutis and the community thought that Europe had the same build as the Japanese so there was only 3.0 and 3.1.

Even then, 3 years after the game had come out we were still finding stuff out. For example, shortly after DOA2U came out players were finding out you could stagger escape guard breaks and guard crushes which we never were able to test on DOA2U or DOA2 because there were no guard crushes.

In short, the game, much like DOA5, was looked at as "Not being as good as its predecessors", and it took some time for people to really dig into it and see what's going on in the game. The tier list didn't change too much over the years but I personally identify that with people just jumping to the top tiers though Ayane made it up to top in the end and Bass fell a bit once people understood he was pure punishment and 50/50s.

During the 2U era it was "The game has no online play, and you have to mod your xbox which is difficult so i hear.", in the 4 era it was "It's not on next gen hardware and I can't counter out of everything, but I hear it was the best version of DOA so I'm going to repeat that to all my friends."

 

[Dr. Teeth]

Are those completely different moves in DOA3? Because im imagining those moves in DOA5, and i cant imagine 6P, and 66K causing those stuns.

I don't play Helena anymore, so I don't know what moves she has in 5 for sure since a lot of her inputs have changed. I do know that 6P is the same move in both games, and yes that move gave you a limbo stun on counter in DOA 2 and 3.

EDIT: I also made a mistake in my post. I meant 33K, not 66K.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

I never played DOA3, but from the short videos ive seen, it looks so different compared to the more recent DOA's. I could see why competitive players enjoyed it much more.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Why would you go that convoluted route instead of just making it how it used to be?

Because adding more deep unholdable stuns would be easier than altering the game itself. Plus if launching was that easy CB's would be somewhat useless.

 

[Raansu]

Because adding more deep unholdable stuns would be easier than altering the game itself. Plus if launching was that easy CB's would be somewhat useless.

They already are useless.

 

[virtuaPAI]

The stuns themselves are not the problem. You could always play the stun game, even in DoA3.1. The difference was choice compared to forced. In older DoA games you "could" play the stun gave but you didn't have to. In DoA4 and DoA5 (while 5 is not as bad as 4, its still there) you don't have a choice in the matter. With the added stun threshold system you HAVE to play the stun game to maximize you damage. This in turn is punishing the attacker while in older DoA games you didn't need to stun over and over. You could get one counter hit and launch if you so wished. It created a better meta game and properly rewarded a smart player.

YouTube Video

-Omg I love this video! I wasnt happy till i seen this right here. This is how doa5 should be. I think we should just stop talking and post nothing but vids of what we mean.

 

[MASTER]

DOA++/DOA2/DOA3: Stun > Launch > Max Juggle
DOA4/DOAD: Stun > Stun > Stun > Stun > Launch > Max Juggle
DOA5: Stun > Stun > Stun > Critical Burst > Launch > Max Juggle

Granted, some of the stuns in DOA5 are un-holdable for X amount of frames so it's slightly more tolerable but not by much.

Just wanted to clear this up,

DOAD is more based on Hit Status. which i am still a strong supporter for when it comes to implementing in DOA5's new sit down, faint stun etc. system.

DOAD: 'Normal' hit stun>stun>stun>Max launch
DOAD: 'Counter' hit Stun>Stun>Max Launch
DOAD: 'Hi-Counter' hit Stun>Max Launch

This is still by far the best formula to use IMO that will satisfy both worlds and smarter play. Funny how i have seen some people post how this is a good system when back then no one believed me. I guess there is still time to push TN to do that. You wont need a glitch for you to like this system trust me. Take out the glitch TN and implement that system instead since a glitch wont be necessary once that is put in.

MASTER

 

[virtuaPAI]

You are right, and technically this is a continuation of the older model. In both doa2 and 3, the launch height increased dependant on the hit status. It just wasnt so obvious due to the stun game. Infact other aspects of the game was based on hit status but were also removed in doa4/5.

 

[XV MR ARMANI]

Clarification:

So, off of a hi counter stun, less hits will still give a higher launch.
Off of a normal hit stun, more hits will give a higher launch.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Basically hi-counter stun puts you in the red threshold from the start so you can string to stun extend but if you launch at any time in the threshold you'll get max height launch.

 

[Chaos]

I was so disappointed that DOA5's launch height wasn't as amazing as DOA3's but Im grateful it's superior than DOA4's terrible juggling height.

 

[Randzz]

If they're also working on the netcode for the 360 I'll be as patient as they need me to be .

 

[synce]

I've been replaying DOA2 over the last week and I had completely forgotten how DOA *used* to play. You can't land 5-6 hits on someone before they fall. Usually 3 at most. And it's awesome. The only thing I hate is how much damage counters do.

I'm not sure what got into Itagaki with DOA4 (and NG2 for that matter), he left the industry not with a bang but a whimper.

 

[Dr. Teeth]

I'm not sure what got into Itagaki with DOA4 (and NG2 for that matter), he left the industry not with a bang but a whimper.

He saw how people were playing 3.1 and hated it, so he made radical changes to the DOA 4 system. It was actually looking pretty good right up until the last moment.