The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

[J.D.E.]

Oh don't talk to me about discussions. A discussion is when people present arguments and those arguments are addressed by tackling the reasons provided directly. It's not a discussion when what you say is being ignored or is being shoved away as being unimportant, and the same shit is being repeated over and over without adding anything new to the table. Is that 'things being figured out the right way'?? Even simple straightforward questions are being ignored. Like this one: "Let me ask you something. What is more realistic to land? Kokoro landing a low grab against Christie's JAK, or Bass landing an OH to stop Christie's attacks?". No one answers. And I'm supposed to believe this is a discussion? Please...

The interest here is not figuring things out. Which user here decided to go into training mode due to the discussion and test Kokoro & Bass vs Christie? I bet not a single one. If they know something I don't, they should maybe say so instead of being in scratched disc mode. And what if I know something they don't? Should I just accept the majority's perspective despite them not knowing something? No one even fking acknowledges that JAK is a huge tool against Kokoro. And I'm supposed to think this is a serious discussion? I don't care if I'm wrong. But if I am, I want a good solid reason, not just "everyone thinks so".
There are Kokoro players here who agree with me. I know it for a fact, but, they don't come out, simply because they feel what they say is considered irrelevant anyway.

Want me to go back Ontopic? Ok. Kokoro vs Christie is 9-1 in favor Kokoro ^_^ In fact, Kokoro is 9-1 vs everyone Now you can all be f*cking happy.

*sigh* That's because you along with them think that way. No one answers because they probably haven't got to the same match up as you. Either that or they don't know anything about it. I'm not gonna go all into it. Also this comment sounds more of a personal problem of yours with nobody agreeing or "liking" on what you're saying because of those particular matchups.

But anyways, I don't know anything of the Kokoro and Christie match so I can't comment on it.

 

[DR2K]

Why should I say anything? Everyone is gonna disagree with me anyway, because I'm always wrong. But if you must know, Ayane. No one listens to my reasoning, so I'm not gonna explain.

It would help you and other players understand what it takes to handle her.

 

[Matt Ponton]

What is more realistic to land? Kokoro landing a low grab against Christie's JAK, or Bass landing an OH to stop Christie's attacks?"

I can't comment on how difficult it is to land Kokoro's low grab against Christie's JAK, but I can speak from experience that 1) Reacting to JAK is difficult, 2) Bass' OHs still have to hit their active frame, and his fastest standing Offensive Hold is just as fast as his fastest mid tracking poke (16 startup). The mid poke is what I'd recommend as his OH does not put him in any sort of advantageous position (putting him in wake-up kick range). I'll give it that his Low OH is at least 10 startup but it's not something you can throw out on reaction as his 1H provides better damage and recovers faster. His Low OH is only useful in situations where the opponent is in a low-ending attack with its only followup being a low attack (i.e., Hayate's 3H+K).

People and their comments about "I would say something but I' am afraid of being wrong" or
why should I post when everybody disagrees?" smh. It's called a discussion for a reason. If you're wrong, nobody is jumping down your throat or attacking you. It just means either you are in fact wrong & they know something that you don't. It's how things get figured out the right way. Stop it! Please! Just stop! If you feel that way about a discussion then why bother being in a forum of any kind?

Edit: No offense intended. AND Back on topic

Thanks, some people take counter-arguments or devil's advocation as a personal attack on them and their ideas. Some people like to go over all the options to be sure the person knows what they are talking about.

 

[TakedaZX]

*snip*

I'm not ignoring you, I just don't have the answers. A low OH is far superior to a low throw though. It'll catch low holders, low punchers, duckers, and any crouching status move in general and the only thing you're vulnerable to is strikes that aren't crouching status and low throws, but what's worse is that if the person hits you with an attack because you guessed wrong or timed it wrong, you get hit with a move on NH status..., so if I'm playing Hayate and someone ill-times a low OH and my plan was to Counter Blow them with a 3p, now I'm at disadvantage because the move does not stun on NH or Crouching NH... hell it might not stun on Crouching CH.

As for the match up, this means that up close you can [probably] catch Christie a lot with low OH's but don't quote me on that... I abuse this idea against Brad and Helena with Mila. Because it's so unexpected, that usually guarantees me the first knee... but still that damage isn't guaranteed... I've seen it done with Leifang as well... so I wouldn't doubt the other grapplers could make use of this too.


Which is why Bass and other grapplers with low OH's [can] have a good time but I'm not enough of a Bass/Mila player to TRULY comment on it, know what I'm sayin'? That's the only reason I'm not saying much specifically.


But that's my take on it as a bystander rather than someone to really refer to it about.

As for other aspects of the characters, getting back to the Ryu vs Hayate match up lets go into something else then. We've talked about safety, punishment, and dipped into stuns a little bit... but yea lets breakdown the stuns. The deal isn't going to be "who's got the deepest stuns", because they do have different speeds. The deal will be, what can they do with their stuns.

So for primary stuns, on highest SE here's Hayate. Subtract two frames from the advantage to know what moves land. + alot means that anything after this will land, or rather anything useful except his wind dash launchers, I didn't bother remember these numbers exactly... heh xD.

• High
  • 9P (+ alot)
  • Standing K (+18) 33k, 8p, 6k, or 4k6k launch.
  • HCH Jab (+ alot)
• Mid Punch
  • 6p/66p (+17) 33k launch
  • 3p (+ alot)
  • 3PP (+15) 33k launch (guaranteed)
  • NH only h3p (needs instant cancel to be used but, + alot)
  • NH only (h3p)p (first hit must whiff, but + alot)
  • 4P (+20 and asks for a lot of commitment) all BT stuns
  • 7P (Crumple Stun, so +whatever)
• Mid Kick
  • 1K (+15) 6p
  • 3K (+19) 33k, 8p, 6k, 4k6k, 9k
  • BT 4K (+15) 6p
  • 3H+K (We see the mileage on this one. There's no reason to hold out of stun on this for the most part) I'd rather take a full 3H+KKP than give my opponent a free chance at a combo from panick holding.
• Low
  • 1P (+13 on CH, +18 on HCH or in stun) p on CH, 8p or 33k on HCH
  • 2K (+14) 6p
  • 2H+K (+9) ._.

Help me out on Ryu guys (Brute and MajesticBlue)

 

[KidArk]

What is shown in the video is not really what you're saying (which I marked in bold). If it's for free, then what does 9-1 mean? In any case, I see two pro players, while one has to work a lot harder, and still loses. Note that the health bars are usually still very close. There's effort from both sides. Honestly, the video I see is the exact same situation as Kokoro and Christie...

How's this any different?

@0:29 You didn't even block on Christie's wake up, I'd say If i ever once saw Bison pressing buttons on wake up in that video i'd say the videos are analogous of one another.. but he didn't. I'm not trying to be rude it's just that Dieminion is a well known name around the circuit and one of the only to keep Guile through the years so his name is basically synonymous with the character. These two guys made some obvious mistakes and I don't think the fight was good enough or long enough to clearly show your points is all xD.
Also 6-4 Rig vs Gen Fu? Gen has a bad match up .. ehh!? I've never had an issue with any Rigs, I'll post up a video analogous to your video with me against a DOA S Rank with fu against Rig..

"How's this any different?"

 

[Awesmic]

Oh don't talk to me about discussions. A discussion is when people present arguments and those arguments are addressed by tackling the reasons provided directly. It's not a discussion when what you say is being ignored or is being shoved away as being unimportant, and the same shit is being repeated over and over without adding anything new to the table. Is that 'things being figured out the right way'?? Even simple straightforward questions are being ignored. Like this one: "Let me ask you something. What is more realistic to land? Kokoro landing a low grab against Christie's JAK, or Bass landing an OH to stop Christie's attacks?". No one answers. And I'm supposed to believe this is a discussion? Please...

The interest here is not figuring things out. Which user here decided to go into training mode due to the discussion and test Kokoro & Bass vs Christie? I bet not a single one. If they know something I don't, they should maybe say so instead of being in scratched disc mode. And what if I know something they don't? Should I just accept the majority's perspective despite them not knowing something? No one even fking acknowledges that JAK is a huge tool against Kokoro. And I'm supposed to think this is a serious discussion? I don't care if I'm wrong. But if I am, I want a good solid reason, not just "everyone thinks so".
There are Kokoro players here who agree with me. I know it for a fact, but, they don't come out, simply because they feel what they say is considered irrelevant anyway.

Want me to go back Ontopic? Ok. Kokoro vs Christie is 9-1 in favor Kokoro ^_^ In fact, Kokoro is 9-1 vs everyone Now you can all be f*cking happy.

Now you know how I feel.

 

[FlamingMuffin]

I think the main point of contention here is that Bass/Kokoro vs Christie both cannot be 3-7. They are not mutually exclusive (although I think it's really only 4-6 for Bass but that's just me).

You cannot honestly react to JAK (or at least I can't). You are either taking a guess, or sitting there blocking just watching for it. If you guess wrong, you are eating a HCH (possibly a launcher right off the bat) for a big chunk of damage (less so in Bass' case as he's a super heavy). Just sitting there blocking allows her to 4T you into more mixups.

Kokoro's low throw is i7 (best option) vs Bass's i10 low OH (or Bass can do an i4 low throw with better raw damage). The OH will go through an attacks startup frames whereas Kokoro's will not. Chances are, Christie didn't use a blank JAK.

Or, you know, Bass can do 1P and knock her out of JAK, something Kokoro cannot do.

Bass can also punish Christie better (i6 + better damage + frame advantage), his counters do more damage, his throws do more damage, and he takes less damage than Kokoro would. Plus he has moves that can hit her out of JAK (not including low throws).

Main point: Kokoro has a very tough time vs sidestepping as it is. Her in string grabs are really her only fail-safe. So when that's stripped away via JAK...how is this not 3-7?

 

[NightAntilli]

@0:29 You didn't even block on Christie's wake up, I'd say If i ever once saw Bison pressing buttons on wake up in that video i'd say the videos are analogous of one another.. but he didn't. I'm not trying to be rude it's just that Dieminion is a well known name around the circuit and one of the only to keep Guile through the years so his name is basically synonymous with the character. These two guys made some obvious mistakes and I don't think the fight was good enough or long enough to clearly show your points is all xD.
*video*
"How's this any different?"

That's not me playing. Just a random video that shows JAK's stuff here and there. In the first 10 seconds you already see what JAK does to Kokoro. And yeah, the fight was not good enough. However, someone posted a video of Christie walking all over Bass. But that one, no one questions, and take it for granted that Bass is atrocious against Christie. Raansu has a video of him dealing with Christie quite easily, for example. Point was that anyone can pick a random video and show whatever they want to show.

I can't comment on how difficult it is to land Kokoro's low grab against Christie's JAK, but I can speak from experience that 1) Reacting to JAK is difficult, 2) Bass' OHs still have to hit their active frame, and his fastest standing Offensive Hold is just as fast as his fastest mid tracking poke (16 startup). The mid poke is what I'd recommend as his OH does not put him in any sort of advantageous position (putting him in wake-up kick range). I'll give it that his Low OH is at least 10 startup but it's not something you can throw out on reaction as his 1H provides better damage and recovers faster. His Low OH is only useful in situations where the opponent is in a low-ending attack with its only followup being a low attack (i.e., Hayate's 3H+K).

Ok. No disagreement there. Now. Going from the perspective that
1) Reacting to JAK is difficult
2) A mid tracking poke is better than a low or high OH
3) Kokoro has no mid or low poke that's able to deal with JAK at all, nor does she have any OHs.

Can you understand why I get pissed off when people start telling me that Kokoro can low grab (not even OH) JAK as a counter, and therefore she's in a better position than Bass?

Thanks, some people take counter-arguments or devil's advocation as a personal attack on them and their ideas. Some people like to go over all the options to be sure the person knows what they are talking about.

I see people ignoring options and making up magical counters that are unrealistic to land... Which pisses me off.

 

[MasterHavik]

You're in fairy tale land if you don't think people go after people for being wrong about this shit JDE...you must see this world as rainbows and lolipops.

Anyways I'm still kind few wondering where Zack stands.

 

[Julius Rage]

Heres where I think Zack stands. This is purely in terms of a head to head between the two.

Vs. Christie = Even
Vs. Sarah = Worse
Vs. Kokoro = Worse
Vs. Brad = Even
Vs. Jann Lee = Worse
Vs. Bass = Better
Vs. Lisa = Better
Vs. Pai = Even
Vs. Akira = Better
Vs. Tina = Even
Vs. Alpha = Worse
Vs. Helena = Worse
Vs. Eliot = Even
Vs. Hitomi = Even
Vs. Lei Fang = Worse
Vs. Bayman = Even
Vs. Gen Fu = Even
Vs. Zack = Better
Vs. Hayabusa = Worse
Vs. Hayate = Even
Vs. Ayane = Worse
Vs. Kasumi = Worse
Vs. Rig = Better
Vs. Mila = Worse

Bad Match ups - 10
Good Match ups - 5
Even Match ups - 9

Synopsis
Zacks strength is speed and complicated feints. Hes packing two critical bursts with each being tricky to try and counter on reaction ( 236K looks like a roll in the start up animation and Sway ~ P+K is a part of a larger suite of options off of Sway~). Off a side step (P) attack he can immedately drop into Sway~. If an opponent is stunned by P, hes got mix up options out the wang hole. On top of that he has a number of options to create distance and 44K is great as a whiff punisher/keep away because its fast, it tracks and it stuns. If you execute a blow back and the opponents dont respect your range then you've got that as well as Sway~Blanka Roll.

Vs. any Slow character , even those with advanced defensive options, Zack is the safe bet in right hands.

His problems arise when hes put on the defensive vs. a medium to high speed character with better defensive options. If you're fast and Zack is fast then its a wash but if you have the ability to swing things back in your favor through a Sabaki, Parry or Adv. counter then hes in trouble simply because he cannot do the same.

If you're Safe, Fast and have Adv. denfensive options then kick your feet up, you're probably not in too much trouble.

If you aren't a full spectrum character then your ass belongs to Zack.

Edit: Internet Explorer is a piece of Shit.

 

[Jaguar360]

Heres where I think Zack stands. This is purely in terms of a head to head between the two.

Vs. Christie = Even
Vs. Sarah = Worse
Vs. Kokoro = Worse
Vs. Brad = Even
Vs. Jann Lee = Worse
Vs. Bass = Better
Vs. Lisa = Better
Vs. Pai = Even
Vs. Akira = Better
Vs. Tina = Even
Vs. Alpha = Worse
Vs. Helena = Worse
Vs. Eliot = Even
Vs. Hitomi = Even
Vs. Lei Fang = Worse
Vs. Bayman = Even
Vs. Gen Fu = Even
Vs. Zack = Better
Vs. Hayabusa = Worse
Vs. Hayate = Even
Vs. Ayane = Worse
Vs. Kasumi = Worse
Vs. Rig = Better
Vs. Mila = Worse

Bad Match ups - 10
Good Match ups - 5
Even Match ups - 9

Synopsis
Zacks strength is speed and complicated feints. Hes packing two critical bursts with each being tricky to try and counter on reaction ( 236K looks like a roll in the start up animation and Sway ~ P+K is a part of a larger suite of options off of Sway~). Off a side step (P) attack he can immedately drop into Sway~. If an opponent is stunned by P, hes got mix up options out the wang hole. On top of that he has a number of options to create distance and 44K is great as
Vs. any Slow character , even those with advanced defensive options, Zack is the safe bet in right hands.

His problems arise when hes put on the defensive vs. a medium to high speed character with better defensive options. If you're fast and Zack is fast then its a wash but if you have the ability to swing things back in your favor through a Sabaki, Parry or Adv. counter then hes in trouble simply because he cannot do the same.

If you're Safe, Fast and have Adv. denfensive options then kick your feet up, you're probably not in too much trouble.

If you aren't a full spectrum character then your ass belongs to Zack.

Zack vs. Zack Better
Seems legit.
Also, just curious: why is Zack worse against Hayabusa? I don't understand this matchup very well.

 

[Julius Rage]

Zack vs. Zack Better
Seems legit.
Also, just curious: why is Zack worse against Hayabusa? I don't understand this matchup very well.

Its a good match up. Zack can't do anything special on defense so if you can string together complicated feints to bait out counters on stun then Zack is in trouble. . . .Christie can do the same in a way but shes predictable and her better attacks are slow and flashy. Zack is pretty fast in almost everything hes stringing together.

I have to assume that on defense you're going to land a counter or two as Busa, if you do then I'm eating an Izuna/Combo. It takes less of those to beat you than the avaerage generic counter from most of the roster. He can close the gap better than most characters with his attacks and teleports and hes getting more damage off smaller juggles than Zack.

So he doesn't have to work as hard to get his damage, his feints/transitions into stances HAVE to be respected and he can control the distance better than Zack.

 

[TakedaZX]

I'll break 66K down again tomorrow. I'm exhausted.

Ong P does track. It says that on the move data. Hayate's command SS is a high crush for a few frames. Towards the end of the SS it no longer crushes.

-/-/-

Well here's what I do know. Issues need to be worked out on his stance. At +6 Ong 2p+k should check SS and Hayate's 2p, but it doesn't check his 2p. I vote that this should be fixed since 20i - 6 would = 14i. That's the sad part. Also for the first time ever I saw a move pull someone SSing behind them. His Ong 6P+K will get followed by Hayate's special SS no matter how far he misses unlike with some dumb shit like Kasumi's 66K and Leifangs 6h+k.

Being realistic though, the Ong P will get all regular sidesteps. 2P+K will beat all sidestepping crush jabs from disadvantage and has a follow up if you screw up and they know to punish. If you're not sure and you know they won't be dumb as fuck to attack from disadvantage you can just cancel into the parry and defend yourself.

If they spam 2p? Ong 6p+k/K/6k will take care of it. 6k isn't bad on block, but it's the safest option you've got. Your choice.

Not a great situation. Certainly not defenseless.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Synopsis
Zacks strength is speed and complicated feints. Hes packing two critical bursts with each being tricky to try and counter on reaction ( 236K looks like a roll in the start up animation and Sway ~ P+K is a part of a larger suite of options off of Sway~). Off a side step (P) attack he can immedately drop into Sway~. If an opponent is stunned by P, hes got mix up options out the wang hole. On top of that he has a number of options to create distance and 44K is great as a whiff punisher/keep away because its fast, it tracks and it stuns. If you execute a blow back and the opponents dont respect your range then you've got that as well as Sway~Blanka Roll.

Vs. any Slow character , even those with advanced defensive options, Zack is the safe bet in right hands.

His problems arise when hes put on the defensive vs. a medium to high speed character with better defensive options. If you're fast and Zack is fast then its a wash but if you have the ability to swing things back in your favor through a Sabaki, Parry or Adv. counter then hes in trouble simply because he cannot do the same.

If you're Safe, Fast and have Adv. denfensive options then kick your feet up, you're probably not in too much trouble.

If you aren't a full spectrum character then your ass belongs to Zack.

Thanks,

I put each of the matchups in as either 6-4,5-5, or 4-6. I doubt Zack would have any 7-3 or 3-7 matchups. Either way I approve of your better, even, worse information just to get some numbers on the board. Thanks JR.

With that addition and the recent edits, here's the current in progress tier list:

S - Leifang, Sarah, Christie, Ayane
A - Jann Lee, Kasumi, ALPHA-152, Gen Fu, Lisa, Mila
B - Brad Wong, Helena, Pai, Akira, Bayman, Hayabusa, Rig, Tina
C - Hayate, Hitomi, Zack, Eliot, Kokoro, Bass

 

[J.D.E.]

Does the spread sheet read Christie vs Ayane 6-4 in Christie's favor? I thought Hajinshinobi & Awesmic stated 6-4 Ayane. Just wondering.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Does the spread sheet read Christie vs Ayane 6-4 in Christie's favor? I thought Hajinshinobi & Awesmic stated 6-4 Ayane. Just wondering.

Yes, just a typo. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[J.D.E.]

I have the Kasumi vs Brad Wong matchup. It's 6-4 in her favor. Her jabs beat out his hand stand transitions. His risk vs reward options are better than hers. But speed kills his momentum.

Kasumi vs Lisa is the same. You would treat hers & Brad's tracking lows with the same respect. Lisa has to space Kasumi out because of Kasumi's in-your-face pressure overwhelms her. She has to pin point & rely on good reads in order to win.

Edit: Shade Swifteye & I agreed on this.

 

[synce]

Things are really shaping up... A few things look a little funky to me so here's my two cents real quick

Pai vs Hayate 5-5 (she wins up close, he wins at distance)
Alpha vs Brad 6-4 (can't pressure, weak to 6K, 2P and 2T)
Alpha vs Helena 7-3 (easily outspaced, needs wall to win)

Not sure about Pai vs Bass being 5-5 but I haven't played enough of him... Generally I go with Alpha because with Pai I feel like a mosquito chipping away at him, so I wanna say that MU is in his favor.

 

[Jaguar360]

Things are really shaping up... A few things look a little funky to me so here's my two cents real quick

Pai vs Hayate 5-5 (she wins up close, he wins at distance)
Alpha vs Brad 6-4 (can't pressure, weak to 6K, 2P and 2T)
Alpha vs Helena 7-3 (easily outspaced, needs wall to win)

Not sure about Pai vs Bass being 5-5 but I haven't played enough of him... Generally I go with Alpha because with Pai I feel like a mosquito chipping away at him, so I wanna say that MU is in his favor.

Hmm...I was thinking that Alpha vs. Brad might be more 5-5 or 4-6. It's just that Brad Wong's so evasive with his lying down stance and I feel that it's really effective against Alpha. I know that Alpha can get out of there with 6K or 2T, but still...something bothers me with this matchup. I also think that Alpha vs. Helena seems a bit drastic and may be more of a 6-4 for Alpha.

 

[Bushido]

I feel Kokoro vs Alpha is 6-4 Kokoro
Even though Alpha has the speed advantage and tracking moves that can lead to some crazy damage, Kokoro has defense and Alpha can be easy to read. All a Kokoro player has to do is lead Alpha into a wall and steam roll her. Alpha doesn't really have much of an option to do her one wakeup kick either.