The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

[FlamingMuffin]

I'd argue that Alpha vs Brad is 5-5. He's evasive and Alpha is pretty linear. Alpha is faster with better damage output though.

Alpha vs Helena I'd say is 6-4. Alpha can outspace Helena for sure and is faster. However, Helena has a lot of non SEable stuns (by which I mean you are forced to hold) and her stun extenders offers problems to Alpha. Even if Alpha can counter them, she will not do any damage and the majority of the time will still be at a disadvantage. That's why I think it's 6-4 and not 7-3.

Alpha vs Kokoro I'd say is fine at 5-5. They honestly don't have any significant advantages over one another. Alpha is faster, but Kokoro can be in crouching state often to limit RUSH and can also extend the stun rather safely.

 

[TakedaZX]

Things are really shaping up... A few things look a little funky to me so here's my two cents real quick

Pai vs Hayate 5-5 (she wins up close, he wins at distance)
Alpha vs Brad 6-4 (can't pressure, weak to 6K, 2P and 2T)
Alpha vs Helena 7-3 (easily outspaced, needs wall to win)

Not sure about Pai vs Bass being 5-5 but I haven't played enough of him... Generally I go with Alpha because with Pai I feel like a mosquito chipping away at him, so I wanna say that MU is in his favor.

OMFG NO IDIOT, PAI WINS AT ALL RANGES AGAINST HAYATE. 10-0 Pai.

Anyway just kidding. That sounds realistic.

She's incredibly safe up close and her punishment ain't too bad. This is what I'm going to say though. It's not because he's better at range that it's 5-5.

Hayate's command sidestep keeps her in check up close and forces her to make more mistakes that some other characters can't. It can become very annoying for her though she can check it with tools like 4K (which she can alter what it's punishable by with her Bokuho stance (makes it a low throw punish or unpunishable, not sure anymore) and her low sweep which is generally pretty quick and not the deepest stun but a nice tool to have.

Her damage rate is also lower than his but her stun game is amazing when she does get that first stun, she basically forces you to hold. Guaranteed launches from her SD stuns... Also her NH lows can pester him just like Helena can with 2h+k. They're not very fast though, so they're not that much to worry about.

Yup. I'd like... to say that it's 6-4 Pai more so though. Just my opinion on it, I'll live with 5-5 though.

 

[MasterHavik]

Heres where I think Zack stands. This is purely in terms of a head to head between the two.

Vs. Christie = Even
Vs. Sarah = Worse
Vs. Kokoro = Worse
Vs. Brad = Even
Vs. Jann Lee = Worse
Vs. Bass = Better
Vs. Lisa = Better
Vs. Pai = Even
Vs. Akira = Better
Vs. Tina = Even
Vs. Alpha = Worse
Vs. Helena = Worse
Vs. Eliot = Even
Vs. Hitomi = Even
Vs. Lei Fang = Worse
Vs. Bayman = Even
Vs. Gen Fu = Even
Vs. Zack = Better
Vs. Hayabusa = Worse
Vs. Hayate = Even
Vs. Ayane = Worse
Vs. Kasumi = Worse
Vs. Rig = Better
Vs. Mila = Worse

Bad Match ups - 10
Good Match ups - 5
Even Match ups - 9

Synopsis
Zacks strength is speed and complicated feints. Hes packing two critical bursts with each being tricky to try and counter on reaction ( 236K looks like a roll in the start up animation and Sway ~ P+K is a part of a larger suite of options off of Sway~). Off a side step (P) attack he can immedately drop into Sway~. If an opponent is stunned by P, hes got mix up options out the wang hole. On top of that he has a number of options to create distance and 44K is great as a whiff punisher/keep away because its fast, it tracks and it stuns. If you execute a blow back and the opponents dont respect your range then you've got that as well as Sway~Blanka Roll.

Vs. any Slow character , even those with advanced defensive options, Zack is the safe bet in right hands.

His problems arise when hes put on the defensive vs. a medium to high speed character with better defensive options. If you're fast and Zack is fast then its a wash but if you have the ability to swing things back in your favor through a Sabaki, Parry or Adv. counter then hes in trouble simply because he cannot do the same.

If you're Safe, Fast and have Adv. denfensive options then kick your feet up, you're probably not in too much trouble.

If you aren't a full spectrum character then your ass belongs to Zack.

Edit: Internet Explorer is a piece of Shit.

A few things i'll fix.

Aphla vs. Zack is greatly in Zack's favor. Why? Zack scores a knockdown Aphla is screwed and machine gun kicks her.

ryu vs. zack should be even, since Zack is faster than ryu and can play the match to a point ryu can't get any izuna counters.

how is mila vs. zack a bad mu? I don't get that one. It should be even, since duck takes away tackle.

zack vs. genfu is not even. His parries and crushes take away a lot of Zack's best shit.

How Jann lee vs. Zack work? that could be even.

Zack vs. Zack is pro tier btw.

 

[Julius Rage]

A few things i'll fix.

Aphla vs. Zack is greatly in Zack's favor. Why? Zack scores a knockdown Aphla is screwed and machine gun kicks her.

ryu vs. zack should be even, since Zack is faster than ryu and can play the match to a point ryu can't get any izuna counters.

how is mila vs. zack a bad mu? I don't get that one. It should be even, since duck takes away tackle.

zack vs. genfu is not even. His parries and crushes take away a lot of Zack's best shit.

How Jann lee vs. Zack work? that could be even.

Zack vs. Zack is pro tier btw.

Alpha is way faster than Zack, has an OH, has an advanced counter. Her best grapples do a grip ton of damage.


If you have to play the stun game so cautious that Ryu isn't hitting the izuna then he's probably Slow escaping everything. DOA isn't every other fighter, rounds can play out drastically different.

Mila can SS into the double leg as well as attack into it or do it raw. She's got a lot of ways to halt sacks momentum

Gen Fu is slow to me, really slow so more of his game is predicated on hitting a parry. So the scenario that you were selling me with busa works here - busa doesn't need izunas to win, Gen Fu needs to land parries at the higher levels.

Lee has dragon gunner, Zack doesn't and his guarantees are better. Jann is almost in the same boat as Gen accept he doesn't need you to attack to land his OH so even though it's a cornerstone of his game it's more flexible in it's use.

Again, you have to look at every single tool because no two rounds in DOA look all that similar.

 

[MasterHavik]

Alpha is way faster than Zack, has an OH, has an advanced counter. Her best grapples do a grip ton of damage.


If you have to play the stun game so cautious that Ryu isn't hitting the izuna then he's probably Slow escaping everything. DOA isn't every other fighter, rounds can play out drastically different.

Mila can SS into the double leg as well as attack into it or do it raw. She's got a lot of ways to halt sacks momentum

Gen Fu is slow to me, really slow so more of his game is predicated on hitting a parry. So the scenario that you were selling me with busa works here - busa doesn't need izunas to win, Gen Fu needs to land parries at the higher levels.

Lee has dragon gunner, Zack doesn't and his guarantees are better. Jann is almost in the same boat as Gen accept he doesn't need you to attack to land his OH so even though it's a cornerstone of his game it's more flexible in it's use.

Again, you have to look at every single tool because no two rounds in DOA look all that similar.

Okay you got a point. But about Alpha...her speed don't mean anything since everything she does is free punishment, her oh can be stuff by 5H+K and ball, tha tadvance counter doesn't do her much good when we can quickly recover and keep punishing, and lastly i'll think we'll be doing the grabbing moreso than Alpha.

 

[Julius Rage]

Alpha is faster, her grapples can take 35 to 40 of your life bar, she's got useful.frame advantage...she's just better at what Zack is trying to do.

If Zack had the OH and Sabaki he'd be even with her but he doesn't - his defense is bare bones and he isn't fast enough in the evasion department to make her whiff on the inside.

Now if you can create distance and initiate the offensive (series by series) then ok, you've got a plan but jumping grapples and OHs that cover significant distance are going to make all of that difficult.

I've just been in too many matches vs her and seen characters with more tools than Zack (played by better people than me!) Struggle to get anything going consistently.

 

[MasterHavik]

Even with the nerf she suffered and everyone thinking she's trash tier?

 

[extravagant]

Where does Kasumi stand on the tier list? I feel like she's one of the weakest characters. Well, she IS literally weak but, you know what I mean~ her effectiveness I feel like is weak

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Where does Kasumi stand on the tier list? I feel like she's one of the weakest characters. Well, she IS literally weak but, you know what I mean~ her effectiveness I feel like is weak

Currently still in progress tier list:

S - Leifang, Sarah, Christie, Ayane
A - Jann Lee, Kasumi, ALPHA-152, Gen Fu, Lisa, Mila
B - Brad Wong, Helena, Pai, Akira, Bayman, Hayabusa, Rig, Tina
C - Hayate, Hitomi, Zack, Eliot, Kokoro, Bass

 

[Brute]

Where does Kasumi stand on the tier list? I feel like she's one of the weakest characters. Well, she IS literally weak but, you know what I mean

No, I don't. lol

 

[extravagant]

Wow Kasumi in A-tier? now that's quite a shock....

 

[Brute]

Wow Kasumi in A-tier? now that's quite a shock....

That's not shocking to the majority of DOA5 players. If you feel she's low tier, you are using her wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.

 

[J.D.E.]

Kasumi is a character that:

Does 100+ dmg (Even though all of the cast can)
can bypass the stun game while most characters can't with (H+K 6K PPK 6K H+K 4PK, H+K 8K or PPK 8K) & all of these are unholdable stuns. Stuns that guarantees her either an 8K, 4PK or 6K launcher every time.
Also 4H+K 3P. 4H+K 6KK & 3PP Which both are also guaranteed.
Does hella damage on the stages with walls & ceilings & does it better than majority of cast along with having an easier time getting it.(although she doesn't have 3K wall slam anymore) Even though she doesn't have this anymore, she STILL easily gets past to 100+pts of damage off the wall & ceiling stages. She really can get twice as high as that.
Has an easy time launching her opponent with throws like 236T or 1T on crouch.
Can use force techs that are +9 AND +10
Along with the dmg part, H+K alone leads to big dmg with H+K 66P 6K H+K 66P 9K which are guaranteed off of just 1 poke or on start up. H+K 66P 4H+K isn't guaranteed, but it leads up to 135 pts of dmg (I posted it because no one I seen slow escapes it). But the fact is all of these setups are giving her 100+ dmg or more along with the 2nd sentence I mentioned above.
Alot of her moves track.(not all, but a lot)
1H grants her actually an even stronger juggle on feathers, wealters, & lights which is KK7K 6P+K PP6P6KK while the other juggle for the bigger characters is PKK7 6P+K KK (very few people know about this juggle)


Does this sound weak to you?


She's is unsafe, but she's only as unsafe as you make her. And she controls the pace of the matches you play with her. And this last line right here about "unsafe" goes to you Christie players too. Just because they're "unsafe" doesn't mean they can't be better at winning than the majority of the characters of the cast.

 

[Julius Rage]

Even with the nerf she suffered and everyone thinking she's trash tier?

There was once a point in this games life cycle that people we're calling for Helena buffs.

She didn't get em back then and it turned out she was, and still is, a beast.

Alpha is worse than before but only so much as a AK is worse than a tank - you don't need a tank to pressure Zack, Alpha does the job just.fine.

 

[Prince Adon]

LOL@Kasumi weak. Yeah people are definitely using her wrong.

 

[synce]

What are all those red numbers doing next to Kokoro?

 

[FlamingMuffin]

For Kokoro, I'd argue the following:

Kokoro vs Lisa 5-5: Kokoro is faster but Lisa offers better throws and can punish her -7 moves. Kokoro has a very slight damage output advantage. All in all, I don't see anything special either way about this matchup.

Kokoro vs Brad 4-6: I don't see this matchup being as bad as Christie. Kokoro is faster than Brad and offers better damage. However, his stances are a pain and he has many ways to avoid her in-string grabs.

All the other current numbers I more or less agree with.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Wow Kasumi in A-tier? now that's quite a shock....

Well the matchup chart is unfinished, so as it stated. the tier list is fluctuating. However, I don't see her moving much from her current position if you were to compare her with tournament results.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Had a discussion with Perfect Legend about Jann Lee. He updated the matchups to include the following disadvantages for JL:

Lei fang, Ayane, Hitomi, Kasumi, Ryu

With that, here's the current standings:
S: Leifang, Ayane, Christie, Kasumi, Sarah
A: ALPHA-152, Helena, Jann Lee, Mila
B: Gen Fu, Lisa, Brad, Pai, Akira, Bayman, Hayabusa, Rig, Tina, Hitomi
C: Hayate, Kokoro, Zack, Eliot, Bass

 

[Doa_Eater]

I'll try to post Tina's match ups in my honest opinion, now to save on bad English and in time i'll just do the numbers and if i'm wrong or you want me to elaborate and correct a pair i will do in a reply.

Here goes nothing

vs Kasumi 4-6
vs Hayabusa 6-4
vs Brad Wong 5-5
vs Eliot 5-5
vs Mila 6-4
vs Helena 6-4
vs Lisa 5-5
vs Kokoro 5-5
vs Akira 5-5
vs Gen-Fu 5-5
vs Bayman 5-5
vs Christie 4-6
vs Sarah 4-6
vs Pai 6-4
vs Rig 5-5
vs Bass 5-5
vs Jann-Lee 4-6
vs Lei-Fang 5-5
vs Zack 5-5
vs Hitomi 5-5
vs Ayane 5-5
vs Hayate 5-5
vs Alpha 5-5