"3-7 is the new 5-5" Helena match up thread.

[Omegan Eckhart]

Helena does well alright against Fu in DOA5. Up close he's a threat, but his lack of range allows for a more fair fight at mid distance.

I have to wonder exactly how mid range works for Helena, Fu isn't going to attack unless he is close and as soon as he block anything with range, like KKK he will have enough frame advantage to be right back in her face where she has no options at all. This match up is a nightmare. Though that's just my opinion.

 

[AngryWorm]

We should get some games in.

They matter they just aren't as damning as some 2D fighters.

Yeah, makes sense. I noticed DOA's "match ups" are a lot less significant since you can pretty much just counter out of everything. Probably explains why nobody can agree on tier placement.

 

[MCDOA]

What can I do against Lisa?
She's strong, and those annoying throws annoy me to death.

Any tips?

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

What can I do against Lisa?
She's strong, and those annoying throws annoy me to death.

Any tips?

When she has you on defence you have to guess correctly, very correctly. She has many opportunities to force tech you and when she does she has attacks that when blocked leave her at +17 so her pressure game is incredible. When you get up you better exactly what attack she is going to use or you are dead.

In regards to Lei Fang this is another horrific match up. Lei Fang is faster, does more damage, has better crushes, is safer, has stronger mix up and can parry Helena to death. Helena has no leg to stand on in this match up.

If they don't give Helena some tools so she doesn't have completely one sided match ups then I'm done wasting time on this game. I know tournament players want poor balance so they have less competition at tournaments but I'd like some fucking balance.

 

[XDest]

Ayane does everything Helena does better, but t the same time is a great pressure character. Helena crushes most of Ayane long distance options, p+k beats the drill kick cleanly. Her BKO duck also evades most of her running offense. Ayane has to keep herself close to mid distance to win, but the match up is still in her favor.

Drill kick? Running offense? Long distance? No Ayane player really does that, and it shouldn't even be considered.

You should be worried about Ayane's mid range game more than anything. She's not really a character that does things at long range anyways. But yeah, Ayane's main tools are definitely going to give Helena a hard time.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Drill kick? Running offense? Long distance? No Ayane player really does that, and it shouldn't even be considered.

You should be worried about Ayane's mid range game more than anything. She's not really a character that does things at long range anyways. But yeah, Ayane's main tools are definitely going to give Helena a hard time.

This match up is almost identical to DOA4, it really hasn't changed much. Helena didn't get any new tools for DOA5 and her old ones are weaker so Ayane should have an easier time now.

 

[DR2K]

Drill kick? Running offense? Long distance? No Ayane player really does that, and it shouldn't even be considered.

You should be worried about Ayane's mid range game more than anything. She's not really a character that does things at long range anyways. But yeah, Ayane's main tools are definitely going to give Helena a hard time.

Eh, I notice a lot of players like using the drill kick and her 66k(string) from long distance as whiff punishers and her back turn run as well.

Yeah, makes sense. I noticed DOA's "match ups" are a lot less significant since you can pretty much just counter out of everything. Probably explains why nobody can agree on tier placement.

The hold system does help.

What can I do against Lisa?
She's strong, and those annoying throws annoy me to death.

Any tips?

If Lisa's running at you use 9kk it stuff all her carrera options and launches her. Low guard against all her jumping throws and punish with a thorw.

 

[MCDOA]

When she has you on defence you have to guess correctly, very correctly. She has many opportunities to force tech you and when she does she has attacks that when blocked leave her at +17 so her pressure game is incredible. When you get up you better exactly what attack she is going to use or you are dead.

In regards to Lei Fang this is another horrific match up. Lei Fang is faster, does more damage, has better crushes, is safer, has stronger mix up and can parry Helena to death. Helena has no leg to stand on in this match up.

If they don't give Helena some tools so she doesn't have completely one sided match ups then I'm done wasting time on this game. I know tournament players want poor balance so they have less competition at tournaments but I'd like some fucking balance.

If Lisa's running at you use 9kk it stuff all her carrera options and launches her. Low guard against all her jumping throws and punish with a thorw.

So it's just me then, it's a difficult match up for Helena?
Because I feel that as soon as Lisa gets some room I'm done. I try and stay close and get in, but it's tough.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

This match up is almost identical to DOA4, it really hasn't changed much. Helena didn't get any new tools for DOA5 and her old ones are weaker so Ayane should have an easier time now.

Sadly, this is my experience with the match-up.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

So it's just me then, it's a difficult match up for Helena?
Because I feel that as soon as Lisa gets some room I'm done. I try and stay close and get in, but it's tough.

Thanks for the advice.

It's not just you, Helena can handle Lisa but when she gains momentum it is very hard to make a comeback. Basically Lisa can force tech you in the same way Helena can. Lisa uses her 9K most of the time and when she does that you have to deal with her mix up. Her moonsault looking thing gives her +17, she has another mid punch that guard crushes and she has her OH. When you are in that situation you have to guess very well or you eat damage or are left and serious negative frames.

As DR2K said you can use Helena's 9K to stuff her running kick but only when at neutral, if she using it after a guard crush or as whiff punishment you will simply have to guess right to get out of her mix up.

 

[Chaos]

Jann Lee is a Bruce Lee clone so of course hes supposed to be impossble to defeat lmao & everybody should know Bruce Lee is a fucking beast LOL. I think the best way to destroy him with Helena is to have a very soild defense and know his favorite moves he loves to abuse.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Eh, I notice a lot of players like using the drill kick and her 66k(string) from long distance as whiff punishers and her back turn run as well.

Anyone doing this are obviously not playing Ayane properly then. 66kk isn't even a whiff punisher. Ayane has better moves for whiff punishment than 236k (Drill kick). This is what's expected to be seen by people playing an online Ayane. Silly things that should never even happen, apparently happens.

 

[DR2K]

Anyone doing this are obviously not playing Ayane properly then. 66kk isn't even a whiff punisher. Ayane has better moves for whiff punishment than 236k (Drill kick). This is what's expected to be seen by people playing an online Ayane. Silly things that should never even happen, apparently happens.

People do what works for them.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Just because it works for them doesn't mean that it is the right answer.

 

[DR2K]

Just because it works for them doesn't mean that it is the right answer.

Of course not, but if you stick with the right answer all the time you risk being predictable.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

If you are to rely only on a single or few answers, of course. Unfortunately Ayane's 66KK4 at range is not one of them. And it shouldn't be considered as a range tool either, because it isn't. I'm pretty sure this is based off online play, which isn't something people should be going by. Seems to me like it's just people randomly tossing something out, and unfortunately people are getting hit with it.

 

[Batcommander]

What can I do against Lisa?
She's strong, and those annoying throws annoy me to death.

Any tips?

If you block Lisa's sitdown stun (the leaping kick that causes sitdown), and she tries to go into body splash or OH, all you have to do is sidestep or hit jab. Works every time against it. It crushes lows, and will probably eat your bokuho alive. Learn to hold it if you see it, it's pretty slow at i31, and if she gets a counter hit, she gets a free launcher into air throw which is good damage.

Be careful about Lisa at mid range. Her main move is 1P, which is a high crush, causes great stun, and tracks. In fact, what most people don't know about her is that she has a shit load of tracking attacks, so be wary about using sidestep against her. 1P is mid punch, so try approaching her and holding it.

 

[XDest]

Of course not, but if you stick with the right answer all the time you risk being predictable.

The thing is, if 3F+K whiffs, nothing happens. If 66K whiffs, you're kind of screwed. 3F+K also has a better hitbox and is also a mid kick. And it's 0 instead of +1 on block, not a big difference there. If 66K gets hit on on counter, it's HCH. 3F+K is not as easy to crush as 66K. 3F+K is a sitdown stun on normal/CH, 66KK4 isn't that deep a stun in the first place. So technically as a ranged poke, 3F+K would be superior in almost every way. And you're not taking into account any other mid range options she has such as BT 6P, 3P, BT 2K, BT 2P, etc.. She has solid options at mid range to prevent being predictable, no need to do things like random 66K and drill kick.

 

[DR2K]

The thing is, if 3F+K whiffs, nothing happens. If 66K whiffs, you're kind of screwed. 3F+K also has a better hitbox and is also a mid kick. And it's 0 instead of +1 on block, not a big difference there. If 66K gets hit on on counter, it's HCH. 3F+K is not as easy to crush as 66K. 3F+K is a sitdown stun on normal/CH, 66KK4 isn't that deep a stun in the first place. So technically as a ranged poke, 3F+K would be superior in almost every way. And you're not taking into account any other mid range options she has such as BT 6P, 3P, BT 2K, BT 2P, etc.. She has solid options at mid range to prevent being predictable, no need to do things like random 66K and drill kick.

I never said it was her best tool, it's just something that you'll see happening.

 

[TRI Mike]

No one answered my question.