3-Point Hold v. 4-Point Hold
- Thread starter MrMoon360
- Start date
x Sypher x
Active Member
Just because his views don't align with DrDogg's doesn't mean he doesn't belong here...
I said this before a few times to yourself in particular ... even through inbox messages when our discussion over the vids went south and turned back into the exact same topic here ...
dont worry I am in no way offended ...
we just have 180 degree views on what makes this game (or any game) good ...
this is why theres a huge market .. and this is why theres games games that please everyone ..
but saying a game is not competitive simply for the guessing factor is not convicsing either ... have you ever seen poker championships ?
DOA2 had a great following at its time ... and everyone and their mother were on that game ... but you also need to understand .. the whole fighting game scene was still strong .. yes on the verge of collapsing but strong none the less.. and I do remember how packed my local arcade cabinet of DOA2 was ...
DOA3 had the problem of being XBOX exclusive .. not the most popular system in many parts of the world unfortunately ... and although we here agree that 3.1 is probably a great game if not the best DOA .. it just didnt reach enough people ... add to that the whole dead scene issue ...
come DOA4 ... with all the problems it had .. it was also an exclusive and at the early life of the system .. and yes it was at a time where the fighting scene was practicly dead ..and starting to rot ... so yes again the game had problems, wasnt all that great ... but that wasnt the only reason for its miserable fate ...
sf4 came out ... and revived the whole fighting scene ... hell not only that .. it introduced a whole new croud to the scene .. and not just the middle age crisis folks from the early 90s ... it was greatly welcomed by everybody despite everyone being skeptical at first with the whole 3d art direction ... yes during the gap of sf there WERE deffinately other fighters out there ... but lets face it ... that one game managed to bring the hype back and even more ...
DOA5 is coming back ... during a very strong fighting game era ... (almost similar circumstances to doa2 ) and will also go multi platform .. and hopefully will have a decent netcode .. (lets face it .. it has to because thats what makes or breaks a game this day and age ... just look at the poor fate KOF13 suffered ... the game is not bad .. infact its a amazing! .. but it just didnt have the online needed for parctice .. not many people have the luxury of sessions every night or every weekend and a good online was a good release ... ) ... changing the whole way the game flows will not help the game only hurt it ... at least this is my opinion ... and I still dont see how this automaticly makes it a bad game .. or a non competitive game for that matter?... and as for your sc5 scene .. its only being played by a few people here ... after a woppong 70 people the first central london tourney (which is about as much as the weekly turn up for sf4 in central london ).. the monthly tournament scene drasticly went down to less than 20 players .. and despite sfxt being out .. the sf4 tourneys still hold the largest following .. the only exception to this was probably the euro qualifiers for sc5 held by namco themselves .. which brought players from all over europe + asia ..
again i go back to poker ... have you played poker against a PRO poker player ? you wouldn't stand a chance in hell .. although a huge factor of the game is indeed guessing ... but there are a ton of other factors involved ... and guess what ? its fun too ... theres a huge casual poker scene out there as well ...
so why cant this happen to DOA5 ?
its up to you weather you want to ignore my opinion or not .. it is my opinion in the end and I strongly stand by it ...
and I strongly believe that there has to be a counter voice heard to yours and rikuto .. (with no disrespect intended to either of you what so ever...) because just like you want your opinions to be heard ... I want my opinion and others who share my opinion to be heard as well ... especially if team ninja claim to be acctually following up on the forums ... and yes although it will cause a divide .. this is how healthy arguments happen ...
yes I do understand that our opinions will probably never see a middle ground ... but .. who knows ...
they may end up doing something like this ... which i think might acctualy be a decent middle ground ... hear me out here ..
before a stun ... obviously you have the ability to hold ...
after a stun .. how about you get .. 1 chance only ... if you guess wrong ... you can no longer hold for the remainder of the stun ... this would give you the chance to go to critical threshold as a reward ... and do max damage ...
and will also keep the comeback factor intact to a certain degree ...
if this plays out right .. the opponent may even consider not holding after the initial stun till he sees an easier read ... because losing that comeback factor would have a devastating impact...
I think that might acctually be a nice little compromise ...
what do you think ?
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Ok, you can slow escape, so just a little to far.
x Sypher x
Active Member
I also proposed this same idea once before, although I don't recall getting any feedback on it. I think just about everyone is dead set on just removing them COMPLETELY, no gimmicks.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Once you hold out of stun you are no longer in stun. This is not a comprise because the problem still exist.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
1. Poker is not a fighting game. Some things cross over between the two, but what is accepted as high-level play in poker is not the same thing as high-level play in a fighting game.
2. DOA has NEVER had anything remotely resembling a decent competitive scene. That includes every single release of DOA. It has nothing to do with how popular fighting games were at the time, and everything to do with what makes DOA so vastly different from every other fighter. I remember when I first tried to play DOA2U at a competitive level, I had a very difficult time going back and forth between DOA2U and every other fighting game I was playing because you simply have to think differently in DOA. Essentially, you have to play unsafe and guess rampantly.
3. As long as counterholds are the best and/or most frequent defensive choice, the game will not be accepted in the competitive scene. It doesn't matter if you get one chance to counter, or 500 chances.
4. We have very different opinions. I fully understand that. I think what you're not understanding is that in the end, if DOA5 ends up like how you want it, there will not be a competitive scene of any significance. Meanwhile, if DOA5 ends up somewhat along the lines of how myself, Rikuto and others want it, it will be played competitively by enough people to warrant a proper following.
Baron West
Member
DOA3 sold 1.2 million copies. That makes it the highest selling game in the DOA series, above DOA4 which sold 1 million copies.
The majority of fighting games that have sold 2 million+ copies have been exclusive to one system. The reason why DOA3 didn't sell more copies is because it simply was not a ground breaking game. It was just a tweaked version of DOA2 with far fewer bells and whistles.
Arcade-wise, I don't think the DOA2 scene was very strong. At least not in ATL. That's largely due to the fact that the game was in Tag mode, and Tag mode is broken.
Anyways, Poker is a shallow analogy with DOA. The variables in Poker are so much greater that your analogy falls short of doing either game any justice. DOA is simply a matter of interpreting your opponents rhythm.
In poker you might be worried about whether or not your opponent has a;
One Pair; Straight Flush, Straight, 3 of a Kind, 2 pair, Full House, Royal Flush.
But in DOA you only need to worry if your attacking opponent is going to do a mid strike or normal throw.
In my opinion Team Ninja could alleviate the problem somewhat by giving all of the characters highs, mids, and lows that launch fairly high on normal hit. That way they could still keep in the escape out of stun for casual players who aren't trying to maximize damage, and give serious players something to gravitate towards. The problem is that the default response to any given attack will still be mid hold/ low hold. Mid/Low hold strikes me as safer and more rewarding than side stepping, despite the potential it appears to have.
Since Allan Paris already mentioned the paradox of 1 hold per stun I don't need to. Although perhaps an alternative more to your liking would be a hold meter, that depletes once a player uses a hold, and takes time to fill once a hold has been used. 10 seconds to refill for a whiffed hold, 5 seconds for a high counter hold, 4 seconds for a counter hold, and 3 seconds for a a normal hold.
Even with this, I think the problem with holding out of a stun would still be fundamentally the same.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Just repeating this so it sinks in, because a couple of other people also had very flawed ideas surrounding this.
Poker odds are not 50/50. You are also physically across from your opponent trying to read whats hidden under his expression. It is a very different game.
Of course if I played you in DOA I'd probably muscle you in a similar fashion because from the sounds of things, you don't know how to flip the coin correctly.
Because everyone hated it last time and every time before that. In fact I still hate it now. And even if you somehow decide you like it, you'll be playing alone with no competition forever. The only ones who will enter tournaments for it are the poor sods who got conned into trying something new while they waited for their MVC3 match to get called. That and Master.
And on a final note, there are a lot of highly accessible fighting games out there. Hell, Soul Calibur is accessible. But you know something? Soul Calibur doesn't require holds in stun to reach its casual audience.
People don't ragequit fighting games because they are not accessible. They ragequit fighting games because fighting games are 1v1. They ragequit because they are emotionally weak and don't have what it takes to compete in anything where the only individual they can blame is themselves when they fail. It's less stressful to play something that is team based so they can shoulder the burden of sucking on everyone around them instead, and that is exactly what they do.
PhoenixVFIRE
Well-Known Member
I would just like to say I've seen more people play SC because of the customization, than to actually play the game as a fighter, so it wouldn't matter if the game had holds in stun or not.
this is incorrect ....
after a stun .. if you go for a hold .. the amount of stun still remains so there is a register for it in the game ..
otherwise after a single stun, 1 player can go HIGH PP , and the other MID hold forever .. but this cannot happen because the critical limit is still running through the hold ... and eventually you will reach critical threshold DURING the hold itself ...
heres a little test you can try out on your own to prove what im talking about ...
2 senarios ...
1st:
have player 2 MID hold ... and during hold animation let player 1 go for HIGH PP .. player 2 will not enter critical stun
2nd:
start with a stun (say hayabusas P+K ) and THEN DURING THAT STUN have player 2 go for the MID hold and punish with the HIGH PP... in this case player 2 will be in critical stun because his critical state carrys on from before the hold and during the hold ..
if anything the hold recovery may even prolong the stun duration if done late ..
the suggestion i proposed was .. that during this 2nd senario .. if the opponent in critical stun goes for a hold .. and its wrong .. thats it for him ... and he can no longer hold after that ...
I think doing that would be fair ... he got his comeback chance and messed up .. until he reaches critical threshold, gets launched or knocked down .. he cant hold in that duration .. i think everyone would be happy with that ... and the stun system can even remain the same ..
Raansu
Well-Known Member
This is not true at all.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
You are still playing a dumb 50/50 because the problem still exist. Holding in stun only needs to be done once to piss someone off. You still have a high percentage to get held because someone has the option to do so, in a situation where they shouldn't.
Your scenario does no justice either. I assume the players in your scenario are in water. Jab Jab is not a "punish" nor does it cause a critical state after a missed hold. Even IF it did you would need to play quick characters to get what you're talking about (10i jab or less).
Once you hold out of stun you are no longer in stun.
Your scenario does no justice either. I assume the players in your scenario are in water. Jab Jab is not a "punish" nor does it cause a critical state after a missed hold. Even IF it did you would need to play quick characters to get what you're talking about (10i jab or less).
Once you hold out of stun you are no longer in stun.
im not talking about water im talking about solid ground ..
and if there was an initial stun and you attempt a hold then yes the jab jab will infact add to the stun level and you will remain in stun after .. however this cannot go on forever because of critical threshold
unlike when you do a hold from a neutral state where if someone punishes it with a jab jab you will not get critical stun ..
and pretty much any character can do this ..
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
It's not strictly 50/50 because of the height system. If you're talking purely about countering out of stun versus a strike, it's 33% or 25% in a 4-point system (another reason to support that, 25% is a good balance, combined with the qualitative reasons around mid strikes being important).
Yes, low holds evade high strikes which skews it, but that takes us back to the importance of mid strikes and mixing them up in a 4 point system.
If one of the strikes was a launcher or a wall hit, holds are out of the equation completely.
But it's not just strikes - throws are also available to punish counters. The only reason to argue that the defender gets an advantage here is if the recovery is way too fast, and that's not a reasonable argument in DOA5.
Yes, low holds evade high strikes which skews it, but that takes us back to the importance of mid strikes and mixing them up in a 4 point system.
If one of the strikes was a launcher or a wall hit, holds are out of the equation completely.
But it's not just strikes - throws are also available to punish counters. The only reason to argue that the defender gets an advantage here is if the recovery is way too fast, and that's not a reasonable argument in DOA5.
Jefffcore
Well-Known Member
That's not true, it resets when you hold. You're getting the CH from attacking them when they're stunned. You can hold forever.
They either hold or SE in stun. It doesn't matter what level it's at because there's standing and crouching; you attack mid or throw. That's a 50/50. UNLESS they SE super fast... then it's a bit awkward.
When you have to attack someone a bunch to get damage, but just sit there and hold and get almost just as much doesn't make sense. I don't think holds should be taken out of stun completely, but the ability to use them should be hindered greatly.
PhoenixVFIRE
Well-Known Member
Guys, come on...obviously he meant that if you missed your hold while you were stunned that you continue in the stun animation...meaning holding while in stun doesn't take you back into the neutral state, meaning Team Ninja would have to make it so that this would happen instead of going back into neutral from holding therefore exploiting the system wouldn't happen by continuously countering. Not that hard to figure out. So once they miss their only counter chance in a stun then bam! you can beat the shit out of them and don't have to worry about them countering.
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
I didn't read the last few pages of the thread but here's what I think. I'd keep the 4-point hold system of DOA2U and DOA4 while leaving the 46 and 64 expert holds there, BUT I'd make the active window as narrow as in VF5. I'm pretty sure that'd fix the hold-spamming problem, even if holds-in-stuns are left there. Also reduce the damage of normal holds as much as possible (30 points would be cool in normal).
With that, I think people would eventually realize that slow escaping, sidestepping and blocking could be much more effecting techniques for defensive situations.
With that, I think people would eventually realize that slow escaping, sidestepping and blocking could be much more effecting techniques for defensive situations.