Are holds used by everyone who plays or only skilled players?

[SilverKhaos]

No one is talking about the similarities between anything and DOA but you. I don't know WHY you are talking about it because it doesn't prove anything at all and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
The topic being Once you get stunned, you are forced to hold a majority of the time. If you try slow escaping, you will end up eating everything the person throws at you.
You are forced to guess between holding or not holding to avoid a grab. That has nothing to do with a persons skill at all, it is making an educated GUESS and praying that you are correct.

On the other hand, there's not a whole lot of guessing once you are stunned, because the majority of people use the standard combos that take the most advantage of you being stunned. For for the most part, you know exactly what to counter to get out of it, and it only really comes down to if it reads your counter input. Or you are terrible at recognizing what the opponent is doing and you do the wrong counter entirely.

As for persons skill...yes it does involve skill. Thats where the "educated" part of an "educated guess" comes in. Just regular guessing takes no skill That's just a wild shot in the dark. An educated guess, on the other hand, is reading the situation, narrowing down the possibilities, factoring in characters and playstyle to narrow it down further, then working with the remaining options, which by this point you can probably narrow down to 1 option since the remaining 3 options are purely situational. Then you just counter that one option. Unless you've miscalculated somewhere along the way, that's what it comes down to.

Now (Not attacking you here, i'm hypothetically elaborating), if you are incapable of thinking like that in the heat of combat, then sure, it comes down to just guessing for you, and that doesn't take skill. You just pray and hope you guessed correctly.

And when I say "Counter", I'm not only talking about the X button, i'm talking about countering, say, a grab, a maneuver, a tactic, etc, etc.

True DOA is like speed chess, and is why I love it so much.

 

[HiguraShiki]

On the other hand, there's not a whole lot of guessing once you are stunned, because the majority of people use the standard combos that take the most advantage of you being stunned. For for the most part, you know exactly what to counter to get out of it, and it only really comes down to if it reads your counter input. Or you are terrible at recognizing what the opponent is doing and you do the wrong counter entirely.

As for persons skill...yes it does involve skill. Thats where the "educated" part of an "educated guess" comes in. Just regular guessing takes no skill That's just a wild shot in the dark. An educated guess, on the other hand, is reading the situation, narrowing down the possibilities, factoring in characters and playstyle to narrow it down further, then working with the remaining options, which by this point you can probably narrow down to 1 option since the remaining 3 options are purely situational. Then you just counter that one option. Unless you've miscalculated somewhere along the way, that's what it comes down to.

Now (Not attacking you here, i'm hypothetically elaborating), if you are incapable of thinking like that in the heat of combat, then sure, it comes down to just guessing for you, and that doesn't take skill. You just pray and hope you guessed correctly.

And when I say "Counter", I'm not only talking about the X button, i'm talking about countering, say, a grab, a maneuver, a tactic, etc, etc.

True DOA is like speed chess, and is why I love it so much.

There are no "standard" combo's until after you launch the opponent in the air. Once you launch them in the air, then yes there are certain ways to juggle with each character depending on the launch height, but that isn't even guessing. On the ground you use any move that increases the stun threshold and either cut it in half or launch the opponent.
Also, how can you take an educated guess in DOA. There isn't anything really educated about it, you can simply just switch up launchers from high launcher to mid kick launcher to mid punch launcher or throw. You basically go "Hmm, maybe the guy is going to do the same mid kick launcher, let me try to hold it" And then you get mid punch launched, high launched, or grabbed. I don't see how this does not involve much guessing at all just because apparently a few people "do the same (non-existant) ground combo's"

Also, just say hold or avoid/duck grab since counter actually means something different.
And doa is most definitely not like chess. If you watch actual professional chess matches you will see the clear difference. DOA is if anything like a glorified (fighting game) version of rock paper scissors except with movement. Doa is basically about hoping your opponent cannot hold/guess correctly when you hit them.

And there is again, no skill in holding. You wan't proper "counters" to attacks, look at virtual fighter's sabaki's. You cannot do them when you get hit, you can only do it BEFORE you are attacked. Having holds out of stun is basically punishing you for successfully attacking the opponent.

 

[SilverKhaos]

There are no "standard" combo's until after you launch the opponent in the air. Once you launch them in the air, then yes there are certain ways to juggle with each character depending on the launch height, but that isn't even guessing. On the ground you use any move that increases the stun threshold and either cut it in half or launch the opponent.
Also, how can you take an educated guess in DOA. There isn't anything really educated about it, you can simply just switch up launchers from high launcher to mid kick launcher to mid punch launcher or throw. You basically go "Hmm, maybe the guy is going to do the same mid kick launcher, let me try to hold it" And then you get mid punch launched, high launched, or grabbed. I don't see how this does not involve much guessing at all just because apparently a few people "do the same (non-existant) ground combo's"

Also, just say hold or avoid/duck grab since counter actually means something different.
And doa is most definitely not like chess. If you watch actual professional chess matches you will see the clear difference. DOA is if anything like a glorified (fighting game) version of rock paper scissors except with movement. Doa is basically about hoping your opponent cannot hold/guess correctly when you hit them.

And there is again, no skill in holding. You wan't proper "counters" to attacks, look at virtual fighter's sabaki's. You cannot do them when you get hit, you can only do it BEFORE you are attacked. Having holds out of stun is basically punishing you for successfully attacking the opponent.

1) There are "standard" combos. Those are the bnb's/patterns that everyone tends to use with specific characters.

2) That's just it. YOU DON'T SEE HOW. To you, its just guessing. To people who can think, plan ahead, and react that fast, its not. If you are going "maybe the guy is going to do the same mid kick launcher, i'll try to hold it", then yes, thats just guessing. If, however, you are going "I know for a fact this guy is going to do the mid kick launcher, either due to me recognizing his patterns and tendencies, or me guiding his actions due to controlling the flow of the fight, or even more accurately, a combination of the two", then no, that's no longer guessing. There's ALWAYS the off chance that you will be wrong even when not guessing, but that's just plans falling through, not a matter of "guessing". Just like there's always the off chance of your brakes going out on the freeway, that doesn't suddenly mean you don't know how to drive, it just means shit happens.

3) As it obviously went over your head (as with most comparisons and metaphors), the chess comparison was in reference to how tactical the game is, especially in comparison to games of the other genres. (board games and fighting games, respectively.)

4) You can only counter BEFORE getting hit in DOA, as well.

5) Having holds out of stun isn't punishing people for successfully attacking, its punishing for WILDLY and RECKLESSLY (Or more to the point, PREDICTABLY) attacking the opponent. If you were successfully attacking, they wouldn't be able to counter you because you are outmaneuvering them with better mixup. Rushdown isn't a valid strategy in a game with a solid defense (or an actual fight), and people FREAK OUT about that because they don't like their memorized combos to be interrupted and think that they should be rewarded with several free damage hits after every normal hit they land.

6) If there is no skill in holding, then there is also no skill in attacking, since its the same damn thing, just one is offensive, one is defensive. If you are only "guessing" holds will work, then you are only "guessing" every attack you throw out will land.

 

[HiguraShiki]

1) There are "standard" combos. Those are the bnb's/patterns that everyone tends to use with specific characters.

2) That's just it. YOU DON'T SEE HOW. To you, its just guessing. To people who can think, plan ahead, and react that fast, its not. If you are going "maybe the guy is going to do the same mid kick launcher, i'll try to hold it", then yes, thats just guessing. If, however, you are going "I know for a fact this guy is going to do the mid kick launcher, either due to me recognizing his patterns and tendencies, or me guiding his actions due to controlling the flow of the fight, or even more accurately, a combination of the two", then no, that's no longer guessing. There's ALWAYS the off chance that you will be wrong even when not guessing, but that's just plans falling through, not a matter of "guessing". Just like there's always the off chance of your brakes going out on the freeway, that doesn't suddenly mean you don't know how to drive, it just means shit happens.

3) As it obviously went over your head (as with most comparisons and metaphors), the chess comparison was in reference to how tactical the game is, especially in comparison to games of the other genres. (board games and fighting games, respectively.)

4) You can only counter BEFORE getting hit in DOA, as well.

5) Having holds out of stun isn't punishing people for successfully attacking, its punishing for WILDLY and RECKLESSLY (Or more to the point, PREDICTABLY) attacking the opponent. If you were successfully attacking, they wouldn't be able to counter you because you are outmaneuvering them with better mixup. Rushdown isn't a valid strategy in a game with a solid defense (or an actual fight), and people FREAK OUT about that because they don't like their memorized combos to be interrupted and think that they should be rewarded with several free damage hits after every normal hit they land.

6) If there is no skill in holding, then there is also no skill in attacking, since its the same damn thing, just one is offensive, one is defensive. If you are only "guessing" holds will work, then you are only "guessing" every attack you throw out will land.

1) Once again, the only "standard" combo's for characters are juggles. Well ok, maybe the guaranteed stuff are standard, but you cannot guess out of it, so I honestly don't know what "standard" combo's you are talking about. You can really just throw in any move and it will continue the stun threshold. You will have to list examples, because I really do not see any.

2) You never know for a fact what the person is going to do once you get stunned. If the person happens to be doing the same mid punch to launch you and you keep holding it, he is not playing the game properly and just being overly predictable. When you play the game properly and mix up, it becomes true 50/50 in everything you while the opponent is in stun, which is stupid.

3) Chess is much more tactical than DOA, since there is much less guessing in chess compared to DOA.

4) Yes and that is exactly how it should STAY. You should not be able to hold (not counter, hold) out of stun. It completely ruins the point of risk+reward.

5) Yes it does punish people for successfully attacking. If you didn't block my attack in the first place, you should be punished for not blocking the attack, not rewarded, completely and utterly punished because it is your fault for getting hit, no matter how "predictable" it is. If I constantly hit 2P and you do not block, that is your falt for not blocking the string. I don't see why this is difficult to understand.

And btw, this game does not have any solid defense at all, considering the fact that people constantly low hold in order to evade grabs just proves how bad the stun game is on defense. Low holding is apparently a better evasive move then slow escaping and crouching, which is the COMPLETE opposite of what a low hold is actually supposed to be.
Also, the only people that freak out must really just be terrible for apparently not realizing you hold out of stun all the time. By the way you describe your fighting style, you never go for guaranteed damage, you attempt to win the games by damaging the person through holds, and apparently you do not use your characters best attacks more than once, since you look down upon those who "spam".

You are basically choosing not to learn how to play the game and instead decide to play by your own rules. Anyone who does not follow your rules you look down upon, no matter how nice they treat you. A good example of this is that Christie player you fought. I had a chat with him and he felt pretty bad that you found it much more entertaining watching youtube rather than fighting him, since he "knew all the combo's and juggles". He said he tried to be nice and help you out but you just wouldn't listen. You think you have a code of honor and fight with respect, but you apparently look down on those that actually put time into learning the game and then complain about them behind their back.

As for the fighting system, I don't understand how anyone can possibly play fighting games and agree with this system. If DOA would be exactly how you wanted to, there would be even more guessing than rock/paper/scissors. Essentially everyone would be throwing random moves and never be truly rewarded at all.

6) Wrong. Holding out of stun is not the same as attacking. Holding out of stun should not even exist because it really does not fit with the logics of fighting games. It is not even a defensive tactic anymore, it is a comeback mechanism. You are always guessing if holds work, I don't think you seem to realize this. No one is ever actually certain if their hold will ever work. Just because you study someones pattern's does not mean the hold will ever work, it just means you are guessing. No matter how much you swear you know that guy is going to throw in a mid punch, it does not have to happen, so I honestly do not know where this whole "It is more skillful if you know it is going to happen" thing is coming from.

 

[Prince Adon]

Are holds used by everyone? Yes. Should holds be used by everyone? No.

 

[HiguraShiki]

Are holds used by everyone? Yes. Should holds be used by everyone? No.

Merry Christmas dude

 

[Jefffcore]

Holding is a pretty stupid mechanic, but can DOA be DOA without them? The game the way it is shouldn't even be played competitively, it's inconsistent.

 

[HiguraShiki]

Holding is a pretty stupid mechanic, but can DOA be DOA without them? The game the way it is shouldn't even be played competitively, it's inconsistent.

DOA can still be DOA without them. I'm pretty sure if changed, it will be for the better.

 

[Julius Rage]

No one is talking about the similarities between anything and DOA but you. I don't know WHY you are talking about it because it doesn't prove anything at all and has nothing to do with the topic at hand..

The topic at hand is wether or not stuns should be taken out of the game on the pretense that without them it would fit more neatly into the paradigm of what a competitive fighting game should be.

But is this about making the game "Fit In" or making it competitive - because as it stands right now its competitively viable and the better player most often wins.

But in life and in most competitive pursuits you don't get a shit ton of guarantees and even the best laid plan can be blown up by someone speeding up, breaking formation, throwing a curveball, running a different route or throwing an elbow at your head when you have your forearm wrapped around his neck.

In sports ANYTHING can happen, there are FEW guarantees and the BETTER players usually win - but not always.

The topic being Once you get stunned, you are forced to hold a majority of the time. If you try slow escaping, you will end up eating everything the person throws at you.

Not true

If you're crumpled or fainting then you're not Slow escaping anything and if you have an accute eye then you'll know at that very moment its time to stop SEing and start watching what your opponent is doing.

If you're on the offense then you need to put them into one of those non-slowescapble stuns and chose between a launcer or grapple quickly - and if I'm the attacker and I'm right then you pay a heavy price and if I'm wrong (especially if its a grapple) then its no harm no foul ( and if I didn't do Zack 214 I'm probably still in a good enough position to blow the wake-up kick or throw out which will interupt both high and low wake-up kicks)

And if I hit you with Zack's then you're in limbo and you're not going anywhere but up.

You are forced to guess between holding or not holding to avoid a grab. That has nothing to do with a persons skill at all, it is making an educated GUESS and praying that you are correct

My point is real simple kid - in SPORTS YOU ARE GUESSING MOST OF THE TIME. IF YOU GUESS RIGHT ENOUGH YOU WIN. THERES THIS THING CALLED PARITY - ITS A FUNCTION OF EQUALITY. IF EVERYTHING IS EQUAL THEN ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN. THE FURTHER UP ANY COMPETITIVE FOOD CHAIN YOU GO THE MORE PARITY YOU GET - HENCE THE REASON JUSTIN WONG DOESN'T ALWAYS WINS.

All fighting games have educated guessing and I don't see too many high level DOA matches that are decided mainly on random counters. What you seem to want is for the attacker to GUESS right once, touch you and get 40% of that life bar for free.

Every fighter at a high level is basically when everyone knows everything its about who gets lucky and who guessed right.

Why don't you just go play VF or Tekken? Those games don't have holds in stun!

 

[Julius Rage]

Merry Christmas dude

Can holds be used most of the time? Yes.

Can you beat every individual who plays this game with the same strategy? No.

Does everyone have some kind of bad habit thats just waiting to be exploited? You betcha.

Do the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray? Robert Burns said it back in 1786 and its still news today.

 

[Jefffcore]

You're missing the point.

 

[Julius Rage]

You're missing the point.

The point is that theres too much guessing for your taste in DOA.

My point is that if you take the holds out of the stun it is a slipperly slope that leads to this being VF with holds and If I want to play VF with holds I'll go play VF with a character that has holds.

So if you want something that is kind of like the DOA you've been playing for years but with no holds in stun then, (stop right there junior!) they have a game for you and its called VF5FS - go play it.

Now if you want to have a conversation about making holds do less damage or keeping holds in stun but making it slightly more difficult to stun then ok but all this no holds in stun bullshit. . .

Heres my theory: All this is about is people in this community being good at this game and wanting more people to play it so they can be viewed more easily as a high level player. If you don't enjoy playing this game and you wished it played a different way, then fuck, go play the game that you are describing.

But maybe you don't want to do that because the game you're describing exists and you aren't good enough to win money at that! So "why not make the game I already play appealing to those people who are playing the game I wish I was good at?". Maybe you don't feel like putting in the the time and effort to get good at another fighter - thats fine but if anyone here thinks that trying to turn DOA into VF lite is going to do anything than change the series rep from "Titty fighter" to "VF for kids" is fooling themselves.

Holds in stun are fine - lower the damage or increase the recovery (BUT NOT BOTH)

 

[HiguraShiki]

Once again, people who have not proven anything offline are acting like they know the game.

 

[Julius Rage]

Once again, people who have not proven anything offline are acting like they know the game.

I traveled for DOA4, won money in DOA4 and will travel for 5.

Fact is Junior you're trading paragraphs with the heir to the IPL crown.

And since I'm not an elitist like many people on this site I'm not even going to stoop to your level and bring up the fact that you've accomplished nothing in any DOA. . . .aww shit. . .my bad, my bad.

P.S Dr. Dogg, god bless his bald head and horrible commentary, has accomplished zero in competitive DOA - yet his guide has solid information in it and if he pulled me aside and told be how to get to CB in 2 hits with Zack then I'll listen to what he has to say and not call him an unaccomplished scrub.

 

[HiguraShiki]

I traveled for DOA4, won money in DOA4 and will travel for 5.

Fact is Junior you're trading paragraphs with the heir to the IPL crown.

Yup, you sure did show them at NEC. Oh wait.... no you didn't.

 

[Jefffcore]

I have no problem with guessing, I have a problem with how shallow it is.

 

[Julius Rage]

Yup, you sure did show them at NEC. Oh wait.... no you didn't.

Told everyone who I cared to tell i wasn't making that one 3 weeks before hand.

Also, heres some good news for you - I'm not leaving the south for DOA tournaments unless the winner is getting broke off at least a grand. That has nothing to do with why I didn't make NEC - I didn't make NEC because I have a
real job, 23 vacation days a year and because IPL is around the corner.

Lemme ask you something dude? Do you know who Belle is? Well she was a "DOA Pro" on the CGS and she absolutely sucked. . .but she went to more DOA events than both you and I combined. Now if Belle's stank ass comes into this thread talking about how DOA should be played will you give her the time of day?

Going offline doesn't mean shit - I can't think of a single great online player (Whos game isn't predicated on lows and lag) that hasn't come offline and been great.

CrazySteady
Lopedo
CaliburBladez
ElectrifiedMann

And many others hone their skills online, not offline.

And we're getting off topic and I would hate for a certain ROTUND mod to drop in here and read us all the riot act. . . .And I'm talking about CyberEvil because I'm starting to think Sorwah would let me boil a litter of kittens on a twitch.tv stream without shrugging his shoulders.

 

[HiguraShiki]

Going offline doesn't mean shit - I can't think of a single great online player (Whos game isn't predicated on lows and lag) that hasn't come offline and been great.

CrazySteady
Lopedo
CaliburBladez
ElectrifiedMann

And many others hone their skills online, not offline.

If those 4 are the only people you can come up with, that shows that going offline clearly means more than going online.

 

[Julius Rage]

If those 4 are the only people you can come up with, that shows that going offline clearly means more than going online.

I named the creme de la creme.

There are more but we are early into the games competitive lifecycle (2 majors deep) and between majors and minors those 4 names stick out as people who bring it online and offline at a high level.

Theres more and come 2013 you'll see that. Till then, be content with the fact that I opperate at a high braing capacity than most humans.

 

[HiguraShiki]

Theres more and come 2013 you'll see that. Till then, be content with the fact that I opperate at a high braing capacity than most humans.

You must really love yourself a lot.