DOA5U Ayane Match-Ups Discussion

iHajinShinobi

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A few things; Momiji's H+K and 2K are solid as close-mid range pokes and keepout tools. H+K's range is deadly and is i12 like her K. Infact K is much more inferior as a range poke than H+K (inferior at tip ranges). H+K is a tracking high, is semi-safe due to fuzzy guard and range safe at -6 (and -5). Damage is overall better than her K as well, K is 24, H+K is 28.

Momiji's 2K is really good at i14 frames for a single low poke. Stuns on counter hit, and it's range is very good for just a generic low kick. I hit everyone with this because no one expects it to be utilized as a range poke. Clipping people at it's range or whiffing it barely outside of it's hittable range makes players weary of it being there.

Momiji's 6P+K and PP6P are very good for the same reasons that her 2K is. 6P+K is an i14 high with decent short range, and stuns on neutral hit, also safe at -3.

Momiji also has an instant high crush, 8P. Stuns on neutral hit, launchers on counter hit and threshold. Unsafe (throw punishable) if blocked.

You should mention that Momiji's 2P is +0 on neutral hit as well.

Just a few things you left out. Write up is good though. Match up is definitely a 5-5
 

Force_of_Nature

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Thanks for filling this in. Your write-ups are much longer lol. Was tired after work so was mainly focusing on the general stuff. Her 2K is great on CH along with her 1P at close and mid-range (2H+K is also amazing, though always has been). Her P+K (along with Hayate's 7P) is an interesting mid-range poke despite being CB speed. H+K is awesome as a keepout tool. I use KK sometimes to try and nail opponents with the 2nd hit (which is safer than the 1st). 6P+K is indeed an awesome high poke for initiating stun. Momiji's PP strings are just really good in general thanks to mix-up/free cancel opportunity and relative safety. 8P (and 3P) are also very good launchers. I get nailed by 8P at R1F more often than I should lol :oops:. 44K is also decent at mid-range and safe.

For some reason the MU always felt 5:5 to me. No one really dominates the other like in the Hayate MU.
 
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phoenix1985gr

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Ayane (i10/i13/i12) vs. Momiji (i10/i12/i12)

Some ninja-on-ninja action! (Well ninja-on-shrine maiden) Similar to the Hayate MU, the Momiji MU will be mostly fought around mid-long range due to both characters excellent ranged attacks and pokes. Another similarity is that these characters also have excellent options in close too.

Here's a rundown of what Momiji may be using in close

P = i10/ -2 on block
-> PP = ~i8/ -6 on block
KK = i12/ -6 on block (Very delayable)
H+K = i12/ -7 on block (Tracking, Unsafe)
6P = i12/ -12 on block
-> 6PK = ~i16/ - 14 on block (Very delayable, Tech jump)
-> 6PP = ~i22/ -11 on block (Very delayable, Unsafe)
3K = i14/ -8 on block
-> 3KP = ~i17/ -11 on block (Very delayable, Tracking)
4P = i14/ -5 on block (Tracking)
2P = i12/ -5 on block
1P = i17/ -10 on block (Tracking)
-> 1PP = ~i22/ -13 on block (Tracking, Unsafe)
-> 1P2K = ~i23/ -15 on block (Very delayable, Tracking, Unsafe)
3P = i13/ -9 on block
-> 3PP = ~i20/ -3 on block (Very delayable)
7K = i12/ -14 on block (-11 on block at tip, Tech jump)

Assuming we 're only talking about the matchup, and not DoA5U in general why is H+K listed as unsafe? and KK isnt? Ayane can only punish these with a neutral throw so whats the diference between them?
 

iHajinShinobi

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Assuming we 're only talking about the matchup, and not DoA5U in general why is H+K listed as unsafe? and KK isnt? Ayane can only punish these with a neutral throw so whats the diference between them?

He means semi-safe since you can fuzzy guard i7 throw attempts and break i5 neutral throws. H+K is still considered unsafe at -7 because of grappler throw speed. But against strikers, both KK and H+K are semi-safe on block.
 

phoenix1985gr

Active Member
Yeah but since its a matchup discussion I thought that Ayane in particular has a different way to deal with these too (like kk being safe from throw attemps due to pushback or something) thats why I asked... I know grapplers can punish -7 but since it was about the matchup discussion wanted to make sure if it affects ayane somehow...

Anyway thanks for the clarification
 

iHajinShinobi

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Yeah but since its a matchup discussion I thought that Ayane in particular has a different way to deal with these too (like kk being safe from throw attemps due to pushback or something) thats why I asked... I know grapplers can punish -7 but since it was about the matchup discussion wanted to make sure if it affects ayane somehow...

Anyway thanks for the clarification

Yeah, I understand the concern. Both situations (KK and H+K) can be i5 thrown up close for strikes, or in this case, Ayane.
 

Force_of_Nature

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Ayane (i10/i13/i12) vs. Leifang (i10/i12/i15)

The two arguably best defensive characters go head to head here! The essence of this MU for both characters is based around finding a way to make your opponent scared to attempt to attack you through utilization of their defensive options. For Ayane that involves intimidation through zoning her opponent out with proper spacing, and for Leifang that involves intimidation through implementation of her strong Expert Holds, parries and crushes.

Here's an overview of her Defensive Hold techniques

High P Hold = 65 dmg (97 dmg on HiCH)
Expert High P Hold = 75 dmg (112 dmg on HiCH, Strong knockback)
High K Hold
= 65 dmg (97 dmg on HiCH)
Expert High K Hold = 75 dmg (112 dmg on HiCH)
Mid P Hold
= 65 dmg (97 dmg on HiCH)
Expert Mid P Hold = 70 dmg (104 dmg on HiCH)
Mid K Hold
= +15 advantage + BT
Expert Mid K Hold = 20 dmg, +15 advantage + BT (30 dmg on HiCH)
Low P Hold
= 65 dmg (97 dmg on HiCH)
Expert Low P Hold = 75 dmg (112 dmg on HiCH, Strong knockback)
Low K Hold
= 65 dmg (97 dmg on HiCH)
Expert Low K Hold = 75 dmg (112 dmg on HiCH)

High & Mid Parries = +16 advantage

Leifang's holds are very strong especially if she is utilizing her Expert Holds often. Her Expert Mid K is likely the most devastating with the capability to lead into 100+ dmg combos with good wall carry. And most Leifang players just love to toss out this hold (and you'll quickly realize why once you get hit by it)! As a result you'll have to be careful with when you toss out Mid K's against Leifang, i.e. those oh-so-tempting CH BT6K and BT4H+K setups for example may need to get replaced or you may be in for a world of hurt. Be careful with Mid P's when Leifang has her back to a wall because both of her Walled Mid P & Expert Mid P holds are brutal, especially to dangerzones. Her Expert High P Hold can also smash you into walls. Be wary of using Low P's predictably when Ayane has her back to a wall or edge since the Expert Low P Hold can knock you back a fair distance. Leifang will also attempt to maintain the advantage on you from neutral or slight disadvantage by utilizing her High and Mid parries. To try and discourage parry and expert hold attempts, I tend to throw her more often than other characters for juicy Hi-counter damage.

Leifang's Offensive Hold techniques

66T = i16/40 dmg (Walled version = 50 dmg plus slump down status)
236T~4T~66T = i20/90 dmg (Breakable)
236T~4T~46T = i20/85 dmg (Breakable, Strong knockback)
3T = i10/50 dmg (Decent knockback, Low OH)

Leifang's R1F strikes


Fastest initial strikes:

P = i10/ -5 on block/ -3 on hit/ 10 dmg (High P)
6P
= i12/ -12 on block/ -8 on hit/ 17 dmg (Mid P)
K
= i11/ -14 on block/ -3 on hit/ 22 dmg (High K)
4K
= i12/ -14 on block/ +3 on hit/ 20 dmg (Tracking High K)
3K
= i13/ -10 on block/ -7 on hit/ 22 dmg (Mid K)
2P = i15/ -4 on block/ +0 on hit/ 5 dmg (Low P)
2K
= i15/ -9 on block/ -3 on hit/ 10 dmg (Low K)

Strings off of Fastest strikes:

P
PPP
(HHH)
PPP4 (HHH~Punch Parry)
PP6PP (HHMM) (Tracking)
PP6P4 (HHM~Punch Parry)
PP6PK (HHM(M/H))
PP4P (HHM)
PPKK (HHHH) (Tracking)
PPK2K (HHHM) (Tracking)
PPKH+K (HHHM)
PP2K (HHL)
P2PP (HMM)
P2P2K (HML)
P2PP+K (HMM)
PKK2K (HHML) (Tracking)

6P
6PP
(MM)
6P4 (M~Punch Parry)
6PK6P (M(M/H)M)

K
KK
(HH) (Tracking)
K2K (HM) (Tracking)
KH+K (HM)

4K
4KK2K
(HML) (Tracking)

3K
3KP+K
(MM)

Once Leifang has you playing defensively, she's naturally going to try and open you up. She has great OH's including the very fast 66T, that can set up a wall-resetting slump down status, the i20 236T combo hold that can get big damage if either sequence is completed and the i10 3T for catching crouching statuses such as Ayane's twirls. Anytime you suspect an OH attempt, immediately crouch or throw her. Her 236T is breakable, but 66T can catch you easily especially on wake-up or when Ayane has her back to a wall. Don't let Leifang abuse 66T!

Leifang also has many strings off of her P, with PP2K & P2P2K being the most likely ones to be used to open you up thanks to the tricky low sweep off them. 1KK also leads to the same sweep and it is a good idea to get acquainted with it to be able to block or low hold it on reaction (including raw 2H+K's). PKK2K and 4KK2K also end in low sweeps and can throw you off easily but the kicks go in a more predicable "High-Mid-Low" sequence. The trick is to not crouch too earlier after the high sweep or the mid sweep will nail you (which definitely happens because of the instinctual nature to duck after she crouches down to perform the mid sweep :().

Overall, for R1F Leifang has the advantage thanks to having an i12 Mid P and an i13 Mid K that will beat out Ayane's mids at neutral thanks to it dishing out 22 dmg (Ayane's i13 6P deals 18 dmg and her i13 6K deals 20 dmg). Ayane's 6P used to trade in earlier editions when it was 22 dmg but unfortunately got nerfed to 18 dmg. Leifang is also one of about only 3 characters that possesses an i11 neutral 5K (Genfu and Kasumi are the others). As with other i12 mid strikers, Ayane's KK will be your main deterent to the use of 6P or 3K in neutral thanks to it's i12 speed and hefty 27 dmg for the initial kick. KK will also counteract punch parry attempts off of Leifang's 4P+K's (or strings that end in it such as PPP4). A strategy she may employ is to try and throw you off with strike FC's that can transition into the punch parry to maintain the advantage on you. KK, 2P or throw these parry attempts. On a different note, quite a bit of Leifang's strings are side-steppable. See how you can implement SS!

Generally you'll have to be a little cautious in R1F against Leifang due to her solid high & mid strike speeds (I.e. you'll need to use 5P's & 2P's to discourage 5K attempts along with sidesteps, and throws and KK's to discourage punch parry and sidestep attempts). Take note also that Leifang's lows are slow with 2P & 2K being i15. Some of her lows can be tricky such as the ones that end in the "2H+K" sweep, but by and large they're fairly slow. Ayane's 2P stuffs her lows when necessary.

Some of Leifang's options at Mid-Range to Long-Range

6H+K (Safe)
66KK (Unsafe for each strike)
4KK2K (Unsafe for each strike)
H+K (Safe)
66P (Semi-safe)
1KK/1KP4 (Unsafe for each strike, 1KP -8 on block)
PP2K (Unsafe)
1P+K (Safe, +5 Advantage GB when fully charged, Strong knockback)

By and large Leifang struggles at range against Ayane, though she's not impotent at this distance either. This is the range that you want to fight Leifang at. She can utilize her defensive techniques and OH's much more effectively in close range so keeping her out should be your goal. Despite having a brutal Expert Mid K Hold, Leifang hates Ayane's 3H+K. This move keeps her out and puts pressure on her attempts to get in. You want to keep her out as much as possible. If Leifang has the advantage such as on wake-up, she may attempt 6H+K (which is no longer a GB but not unsafe) or a run-up 66T. She may poke with 4KK, 1KP or try and sneak in a low with PP2K. H+K will whiff punish you for a CH bounce combo along with 1P+K, which causes a strong knockback on hit. 66KK is used to intercept some of Ayane's attacks through deceptive crushing. Straight-up, I hate 66K or 66KK. It's unsafe, but still, ugh. Crushes more shit than you may think...

Leifang's Infamous Mid-Crushes

66KK
= i18/ -15 on block/ +33 on NH & Launch (Mid K x2)
1PP
= i17/ -11 on block/ +0 on NH (Mid P x2)
3P+K
= i18/ -14 on block BT'ed/ Launch on NH (Mid P, Unholdable)

Ah, the bullshit that aids in Leifang's ascent into high tier! Screw her holds and parries, these attacks all have one main thing in common, they all crush horizontal mids like 3H+K :mad:! Ayane gets shit for her "mid-crushes" but Leifang's are at least just as troublesome. On the bright side, they're all unsafe on block. If you can, try to bait these moves out and punish whenever you can to discourage future use. 3P+K is left BT'ed when blocked and is strike punishable. You will have a rough time with this MU if you let Leifang abuse her crushes. Also please punish 46P whenever you block it (-10). It's 13 frames of bullshit :(.

Defense is the best offense. Leifang's strengths are defense but when she smells blood, she can run a lot of shit on you and you may not even know what just happened. OH's, parries, expert holds, FC pokes, crushes, all things to account for in this MU (along with a mean 64P in stun!). I reckon that this MU is 5:5. Both characters are very dangerous when they are in the zone. Range is your best friend in this MU. You need to make it hard for Leifang to use her dangerous tools on you and keeping her out is key. As soon as you stop controlling space, it becomes Leifang's fight for the taking. Stand your ground!
 
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Force_of_Nature

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A couple matches against a pretty solid Leifang player:


The 3rd round here shows how dangerous Leifang can be at times with some of her tools such as the Expert Mid K Hold (No walled 66T's thankfully). Excuse my occasional scrubbiness...


Some attempts at trying to zone out Leifang. Lol, yeah, I did try to use Grounded H+K against (1)P+K here :oops:.
 
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iHajinShinobi

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I want to add to this match up, that every Unshu (sabaki stance) transition Leifang has loses to kicks. So, the definite answer to that sabaki stance is our 4K. 4K will counter hit the stance for free (on reaction) and reward us a sitdown stun for guaranteed damage, whether it is used in neutral or on block. Unshu is only something to be a little more wary of when you're put in threshold.

Also added the Leifang match up and others to the Match Up Listing.

I'll get around to the Ayane v Kasumi match up.
 
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Force_of_Nature

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Alright thanks! Yeah Unshu only catches high or mid punches so kicks and throws are effective against it. Looking forward to your Ayane/Kasumi MU!

I can do the Hayabusa MU with @Brute next.
 

iHajinShinobi

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Alright thanks! Yeah Unshu only catches high or mid punches so kicks and throws are effective against it. Looking forward to your Ayane/Kasumi MU!

I can do the Hayabusa MU with @Brute next.

Actually, Force if you don't mind, let me handle the Hayabusa match up along with the Kasumi match up? I've been analyzing and reviewing the match up a long while now since Master is still that threatening.
 

Force_of_Nature

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Sure no problem bro! I'll still discuss stuff with Brute though. Lol, MASTER is always a threat. Don't matta where! I'm interested to see your findings! Dunno how many Hayabusas will be at SJ8 though. MASTER & Brute are the most dangerous ones offline I think...

Guess I get the Eliot MU then! =P :eliot: :ayane:.
 

UncleKitchener

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Soo, I noticed some guy trying learn a certain character, possibly for match up experience.

Hmmmmb, I wonder what he found.

No one really did go into the Bass - Ayane MU, so it'll be interesting to read the perspective of Ayane players.
 

Force_of_Nature

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I have fought Bass numerous times in the past. I will say that Bass is a lot stronger than the average person gives him credit for. The ninjas don't exactly "walk all over him". He's one of the most dangerous opponents when on offense with brutal punishment. The Hajinmon Rep seems to look highly of Bass. Ayane can still be a huge nuisance for him, but he can punish her severely if she makes any mistakes.

I can go over the MU next week after Summer Jam 8 if you'd like.
 
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iHajinShinobi

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Soo, I noticed some guy trying learn a certain character, possibly for match up experience.

Hmmmmb, I wonder what he found.

No one really did go into the Bass - Ayane MU, so it'll be interesting to read the perspective of Ayane players.

I already know how to fight Bass as Ayane, I've just had an interest seeing things from the other side from a character class I've not played before.

I still have match ups before this one to elaborate on, just been pretty busy. But will get done.
 
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iHajinShinobi

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For those in need of some insight on how to fight Helena, I wrote this up for a friend of mine earlier. Should come in handy;

"Fighting Requiem's Helena is a lot fun for me, to be honest. Ayane v Helena match up is even, both can pressure the other a little too well. It's normally about who can keep the momentum longer than the other. The thing about Helena is that she is heavily based on momentum, offensive momentum more than anything.

If she establishes that, it's going to come down to how well you can deal with it. Every "strong" Helena player uses their own form of momentum and will attempt to get into your head differently than the other. But you also have to keep in mind, they are using the same movelist, so knowing her movelist (frame data, damage, etc) is important.

Your first step is to recognize what string(s) and poke(s) the Helena player likes utilizing more often than others. When you realize what those are, you can prepare a plan of action for those next time, or later on. Your next step is to remember exactly what you recognized, and keep it in mind throughout the match as a note.

Third step is to NEVER panic when you get hit for critical stun, Helena's are NOT going to do stun launch very often (some will and will mix it up) because they will favor the threshold and strike mix up pressure, and set up threshold into throws from various stances, or neutral stance.

Helena is i11/i12/i15 in neutral. A downside for Leifang is that she actually cannot trade mid for mid with Helena because her 6P is 17 damage, Helena's is 18 damage. But an upside is that Leifang has parries, and these become useful depending on how a Helena's strike pattern is. Obviously use a mid parry if they go mid often, same for highs. But the parries need to be used sparingly when you know certain strikes are coming, on read.

Once you have a feel for the Helena's strike style, the match up becomes more manageable because if you do adjust to this, you can start matching strikes/holds/parries/blocking accordingly to break up their strike style. This then forces Helena to try a different approach altogether.

The Helena match up is all about breaking up their momentum so you can start your own. BKO takes i5 frames to execute, it cannot come out instantly. If Helena cannot establish momentum, she will lose."
 
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Aerospark

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Which character does Ayane have the best advantage over?? Like, how Bayman is apparently Phase-4's worst match up(?)
 
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