System Bad habit or good strategy?: “Respect” in fighting games

[WAZAAAAA]

Yeah, there is. It's the chase, and the friendship that can result from an even match. If winning was all that matered, there's this.

Friendship? I don't believe that's what he meant lol.

Beautiful strawman. The objective is to learn. Getting your ass beat non-stop without tips or a working method to stop what's kicking your ass teaches you to leave the game, which is something we have a massive problem with. I don't mean ragequit, i mean simply leave.

I don't get it. Are you two somehow implying that the "ass kicker" has some kind of spiritual obligation to sandbag or make the opponent improve? Why on earth would he do it, with a stranger, especially in a game that sports one of the best fighting game tutorials/training mode, and popular enough to have its fair share of decent guides on the internet?
Many people commenting on this thread seem to imply that losing is never fun, are you forreal or am I misunderstanding?

This is why DoA can't the get sexuality passes that other games get. You don't disrespect a game that actually gets played.

I don't get it

 

[Awesmic]

Many people commenting on this thread seem to imply that losing is never fun, are you forreal or am I misunderstanding?

I don't get it

It's not so much about losing never being fun as opposed to this stigmatic belief that winning (and how you achieve the victory) is everything.

 

[Argentus]

Friendship? I don't believe that's what he meant lol.

I don't get it. Are you two somehow implying that the "ass kicker" has some kind of spiritual obligation to sandbag or make the opponent improve? Why on earth would he do it, with a stranger, especially in a game that sports one of the best fighting game tutorials/training mode, and popular enough to have its fair share of decent guides on the internet?
Many people commenting on this thread seem to imply that losing is never fun, are you forreal or am I misunderstanding?

I don't get it

You are acting as an excellent demonstration of the wrong mentality to have lol.

Lemme break it down.

Friendship is part of it yes. For example, regardless of whether I win or lose, I want nothing to do with people who kill the fun of playing. But if its a respectful player id love to be friends with them and play more.

Secondly....yeah that second paragraph is the self absorbed disrespectful attitude that we are talking about. The whole "I don't care how other people feel so long as I get a win and they can fuck off if they don't like it" is the wrong mentality to have for a multiplayer game, because people WILL fuck off and stop playing. We want people to be playing the game, not be pushed away by an elitist attitude.

I'm not trying to attack you personally but you're setting yourself up as a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

It's not so much about losing never being fun as opposed to this stigmatic belief that winning (and how you achieve the victory) is everything.

Exactly. Most people could care less if they win or lose so long as its fun to play. That's why this whole "play to win" mentality hurts more than it helps.

Steamrolling someone who can't even fight back is ridiculously disrespectful for several reasons. Why are you even playing them? Just to look like an asshole for beating on someone who's obviously not on your level?



Side note, there's also little things I won't do, out of respect for my opponent. This is more subjective though.

I won't force tech or low attack a downed opponent because I see that as quite literally kicking someone while they're down. I will do the 8pk down attacks though.

I won't use offensive taunts. With Mila and Leon I only use they're "All right, Let's Go!” warmup stretch and "Lauren, are you watching?" Pose. But not the spank and laugh or "you're going down!" Taunts. Aka only neutral idle animations.

 

[Awesmic]

Exactly. Most people could care less if they win or lose so long as its fun to play. That's why this whole "play to win" mentality hurts more than it helps.

Steamrolling someone who can't even fight back is ridiculously disrespectful for several reasons. Why are you even playing them? Just to look like an asshole for beating on someone who's obviously not on your level?

I assume you're talking about people online who are absent from lobbies and hold everyone up with infinite time? Because the way I see it, everyone has a chance to fight back otherwise. Some may be well-equipped to even win the battle, and some may not be. But we all must make up our minds and choose to commit to giving nothing less than our best when we pick up that controller and go thumb to thumb.

Also keep in mind that while I don't believe winning is everything, I still believe in playing to win. That being said, let's dial back to this whole respect scenario.

You said that it's disrespectful for an opponent to "steamroll" players who "can't fight back". I can see if the opponent they have a tough time beating is full of himself and actually projects a bad attitude to warrant the disrespect, but what about the opponent who says nothing to warrant the disrespect at any given time, yet someway, somehow, gets a streak going in a lobby? Are we gonna demonize those people too?

Have you given any thought that the latter players I mentioned want to tune out the drama associated with typical voice and text chat, and just want to keep themselves sharp any way they can, especially when online play is all they have to do it?

Have you given any thought that the reason they do that in the first place is because they're so used to receiving hate mail that they've learned to ignore what goes on in the text chat or voice chat?

Have you given any thought that the opponents those players beat rarely (if not ever) genuinely ask for help on overcoming something they don't understand how to beat?

Take all this into consideration before you judge some of these "douchebag" players online, in particular. After reading this thread, I could've easily been labeled into that scenario simply because I rarely chat at all. And some of the reasons I mentioned have contributed to my silence online.

 

[the space cadet]

@Argentus

Aren't you the one that said if you're getting your ass kicked, you put your controller down and leave in the middle of the match? Yet... you're preaching about players being disrespectful? Let me guess... what you do isn't disrespectful. It's just misunderstood... right?

Here's a crazy idea: If a player gets destroyed, then he/she should go play other players at their own skill level.

 

[Lulu]

Side note, there's also little things I won't do, out of respect for my opponent. This is more subjective though.

I won't force tech or low attack a downed opponent because I see that as quite literally kicking someone while they're down. I will do the 8pk down attacks though.

I won't use offensive taunts. With Mila and Leon I only use they're "All right, Let's Go!” warmup stretch and "Lauren, are you watching?" Pose. But not the spank and laugh or "you're going down!" Taunts. Aka only neutral idle animations.

Thats intetesting.... I have some rules of my own.....
I always back off after splatting my friends up against the wall, atleast for now, once they get better and learn how to get out of it then I'l start doing it again.... I always go for the ground attacks, I mean I let them know what they're options are when they're downed and if they keep Wake Up kicking I stomp on them until they back tech, what I won't do is use Pseudo Force Techs to stay at advantage and keep momentum.... thats just too much for someone who keeps asking me "whats the input for my characters Power Blow again ?"

I will never never pass up a chance to taunt my friends.... I mean its just irresistible..... plus the taunts are quite long so its like giving them a chance atleast..... infact I always go for Style points over Maximum Damage especially If I'm using the Ninjas. This always keeps the matches close..... well closer than me going for Maximum Damage.

And if all that doesn't work then we just play Tag.... they learn better when we're on the same team

 

[Awesmic]

@Argentus

Aren't you the one that said if you're getting your ass kicked, you put your controller down and leave in the middle of the match? Yet... you're preaching about players being disrespectful?

That was the Argentus of the past.

He's not the same Argentus today, from what I recall. He's still struggling with that mentality somewhat, but times have changed nonetheless. I'm just trying to understand where he's coming from with this whole respect scenario and holding a good conversation, is all.

Here's a crazy idea: If a player gets destroyed, then he/she should go play other players at their own skill level.

Or more constructively, ask said opponent in private how he/she got outplayed in the hopes of being taken under their wing to learn something new and find their own faults... without coming off as hatemail or a complaint, of course.

 

[Darkslay]

I assume you're talking about people online who are absent from lobbies and hold everyone up with infinite time? Because the way I see it, everyone has a chance to fight back. Some may be well-equipped to even win the battle, and some may not be. But we all must make up our minds and choose to commit to giving nothing less than our best when we pick up that controller and go thumb to thumb.

Also keep in mind that while I don't believe winning is everything, I still believe in playing to win. That being said, let's dial back to this whole respect scenario.

You said that it's disrespectful for an opponent to "steamroll" players who "can't fight back". I can see if the opponent they have a tough time beating is full of himself and actually projects a bad attitude to warrant the disrespect, but what about the opponent who says nothing to warrant the disrespect at any given time, yet someway, somehow, gets a streak going in a lobby? Are we gonna demonize those people too?

Have you given any thought that the latter players I mentioned want to tune out the drama associated with typical voice and text chat, and just want to keep themselves sharp any way they can, especially when online play is all they have to do it?

Have you given any thought that the reason they do that in the first place is because they're so used to receiving hate mail that they've learned to ignore what goes on in the text chat or voice chat?

Have you given any thought that the opponents those players beat rarely (if not ever) genuinely ask for help on overcoming something they don't understand how to beat?

Take all this into consideration before you judge some of these "douchebag" players online, in particular. After reading this thread, I could've easily been labeled into that scenario simply because I rarely chat at all. And some of the reasons I mentioned have contributed to my silence online.

This reminds me of a post i made in the previous entry in this "series", a lot of people don't know or understand this but, the main reason why the FGC is the swamp of poison that it is today, it all came from one reason. Online.

Half the terminology and "terms" used to refer to players now came from online play and all that came with it, before everything was face to face, whether you lost or not, you wouldn't just call out the other guy and punch him later, sure there were grudge matches, but that's as far it got. After the extremely big change that online represented to fighting games, all of these terms started to pop up and now people lost that "respect" because of it, what's the worse part about all this? it was a necessary evil, games like DOA itself wouldn't be where they are now without it.

May have gotten a little sidetracked, but ultimately, this whole discussion wouldn't exist if it weren't for the reasons above lol.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

But the problem with "Playing for Fun" is that everyone has their own way of having Fun on Doa.

Example: I enjoy playing Doa by Spamming 6P,6K With Hitomi and mashing counters that's fun for me.

2nd Example: I have Fun by only playing Tag with a partner Online.

3rd Example: If you counter me that's cheap and making the fun for the game worse.

The point is not everyone is going to play exactly how you want them, which players need to give up on that concept. Everyone seem to forget the Goal of the game is to deplete your opponents life bar before he/she does. Choosing not to give all that you learned in this game is Sandbaging which is disrespect we need to have a honest game bring all the cards to the table and give it all you got. The moment you forget this concept is when majority of the Doa community complain.

Now let me tell you my "friends" version of having fun and let me see if everyones on the same page.

I enjoying beating my opponents and spamming the same move until my opponent realize how to counter it, i love taunting players because i find it funny of Honoka's Animation is. I want to kick you on the ground because i find it Fun and hilarious to do, sending hate mail after i beat you one time in rank match because i want to see you get angry and troll. This is everyone's way of having fun i have no doubt in my mind that everyone in here loves this and i don't care if i win or lose, getting you upset is Fun.

So what is your version of having fun? comment below

 

[Lulu]

But the problem with "Playing for Fun" is that everyone has their own way of having Fun on Doa.

Example: I enjoy playing Doa by Spamming 6P,6K With Hitomi and mashing counters that's fun for me.

2nd Example: I have Fun by only playing Tag with a partner Online.

3rd Example: If you counter me that's cheap and making the fun for the game worse.

The point is not everyone is going to play exactly how you want them, which players need to give up on that concept. Everyone seem to forget the Goal of the game is to deplete your opponents life bar before he/she does. Choosing not to give all that you learned in this game is Sandbaging which is disrespect we need to have a honest game bring all the cards to the table and give it all you got. The moment you forget this concept is when majority of the Doa community complain.

Now let me tell you my "friends" version of having fun and let me see if everyones on the same page.

I enjoying beating my opponents and spamming the same move until my opponent realize how to counter it, i love taunting players because i find it funny of Honoka's Animation is. I want to kick you on the ground because i find it Fun and hilarious to do, sending hate mail after i beat you one time in rank match because i want to see you get angry and troll. This is everyone's way of having fun i have no doubt in my mind that everyone in here loves this and i don't care if i win or lose, getting you upset is Fun.

So what is your version of having fun? comment below

Reminds Me of Dark Souls........ this game will bring out your inner troll whether you want it to or not.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

Everyone can have fun but keep in mind the goal of the game first, the concept of having fun is always personal and to each their own version. While "playing to win" is just one idea, "How you win" again is everyones personal version.

 

[Kohlrak]

Friendship? I don't believe that's what he meant lol.

No, that's what I meant. The only thing you get from online games is companionship, which is why CoD, Minecraft, and MH are doing so well. That's our reward. It's important to understand that.

I don't get it. Are you two somehow implying that the "ass kicker" has some kind of spiritual obligation to sandbag or make the opponent improve?

Actually, yes. But, in today's day in age, we don't care about spiritual obligations. Someone helped you, so return the favor and build the community.

Why on earth would he do it, with a stranger, especially in a game that sports one of the best fighting game tutorials/training mode, and popular enough to have its fair share of decent guides on the internet?

That is an opinion that we have it, but i do not agree. IMO, Smash Bros has the best training mode and tutorial for a fighting game, desptie how simple it is. It teaches you everything other than frame-data and combos. It teaches you the things that matter most: how to actually control and predict what happens as you press buttons.

Many people commenting on this thread seem to imply that losing is never fun, are you forreal or am I misunderstanding?

I don't get it

Severely. Getting beaten over and over and over again with no improvement is not fun.

I assume you're talking about people online who are absent from lobbies and hold everyone up with infinite time? Because the way I see it, everyone has a chance to fight back otherwise. Some may be well-equipped to even win the battle, and some may not be. But we all must make up our minds and choose to commit to giving nothing less than our best when we pick up that controller and go thumb to thumb.

Also keep in mind that while I don't believe winning is everything, I still believe in playing to win. That being said, let's dial back to this whole respect scenario.

You said that it's disrespectful for an opponent to "steamroll" players who "can't fight back". I can see if the opponent they have a tough time beating is full of himself and actually projects a bad attitude to warrant the disrespect, but what about the opponent who says nothing to warrant the disrespect at any given time, yet someway, somehow, gets a streak going in a lobby? Are we gonna demonize those people too?

Have you given any thought that the latter players I mentioned want to tune out the drama associated with typical voice and text chat, and just want to keep themselves sharp any way they can, especially when online play is all they have to do it?

Have you given any thought that the reason they do that in the first place is because they're so used to receiving hate mail that they've learned to ignore what goes on in the text chat or voice chat?

Have you given any thought that the opponents those players beat rarely (if not ever) genuinely ask for help on overcoming something they don't understand how to beat?

Take all this into consideration before you judge some of these "douchebag" players online, in particular. After reading this thread, I could've easily been labeled into that scenario simply because I rarely chat at all. And some of the reasons I mentioned have contributed to my silence online.

Which is why people like you avoid online. So the ultimate question is whether or not we should be a part of the problem or part of the solution. It's a real issue that seems to feed itself.

@Argentus

Aren't you the one that said if you're getting your ass kicked, you put your controller down and leave in the middle of the match? Yet... you're preaching about players being disrespectful? Let me guess... what you do isn't disrespectful. It's just misunderstood... right?

Here's a crazy idea: If a player gets destroyed, then he/she should go play other players at their own skill level.

With a game this popular, it should be incredibly easy to find players of equal skill levels. It also helps to prevent bad habits like mashing.[/sarcasm]

Thats intetesting.... I have some rules of my own.....
I always back off after splatting my friends up against the wall, atleast for now, once they get better and learn how to get out of it then I'l start doing it again.... I always go for the ground attacks, I mean I let them know what they're options are when they're downed and if they keep Wake Up kicking I stomp on them until they back tech, what I won't do is use Pseudo Force Techs to stay at advantage and keep momentum.... thats just too much for someone who keeps asking me "whats the input for my characters Power Blow again ?"

I will never never pass up a chance to taunt my friends.... I mean its just irresistible..... plus the taunts are quite long so its like giving them a chance atleast..... infact I always go for Style points over Maximum Damage especially If I'm using the Ninjas. This always keeps the matches close..... well closer than me going for Maximum Damage.

And if all that doesn't work then we just play Tag.... they learn better when we're on the same team

That's exactly the attitude to have.

This reminds me of a post i made in the previous entry in this "series", a lot of people don't know or understand this but, the main reason why the FGC is the swamp of poison that it is today, it all came from one reason. Online.

Half the terminology and "terms" used to refer to players now came from online play and all that came with it, before everything was face to face, whether you lost or not, you wouldn't just call out the other guy and punch him later, sure there were grudge matches, but that's as far it got. After the extremely big change that online represented to fighting games, all of these terms started to pop up and now people lost that "respect" because of it, what's the worse part about all this? it was a necessary evil, games like DOA itself wouldn't be where they are now without it.

May have gotten a little sidetracked, but ultimately, this whole discussion wouldn't exist if it weren't for the reasons above lol.

The problem with online interactions is that it's so easy to run away.

But the problem with "Playing for Fun" is that everyone has their own way of having Fun on Doa.

Example: I enjoy playing Doa by Spamming 6P,6K With Hitomi and mashing counters that's fun for me.

2nd Example: I have Fun by only playing Tag with a partner Online.

3rd Example: If you counter me that's cheap and making the fun for the game worse.

The point is not everyone is going to play exactly how you want them, which players need to give up on that concept. Everyone seem to forget the Goal of the game is to deplete your opponents life bar before he/she does. Choosing not to give all that you learned in this game is Sandbaging which is disrespect we need to have a honest game bring all the cards to the table and give it all you got. The moment you forget this concept is when majority of the Doa community complain.

Now let me tell you my "friends" version of having fun and let me see if everyones on the same page.

I enjoying beating my opponents and spamming the same move until my opponent realize how to counter it, i love taunting players because i find it funny of Honoka's Animation is. I want to kick you on the ground because i find it Fun and hilarious to do, sending hate mail after i beat you one time in rank match because i want to see you get angry and troll. This is everyone's way of having fun i have no doubt in my mind that everyone in here loves this and i don't care if i win or lose, getting you upset is Fun.

So what is your version of having fun? comment below

So having fun at the community's expense. That's what CoD is for. Unless he doesn't have the balls to take it in return.

 

[Awesmic]

So what is your version of having fun? comment below

Listening to my own custom music while playing DOA the best I personally can.

Which is why people like you avoid online. So the ultimate question is whether or not we should be a part of the problem or part of the solution. It's a real issue that seems to feed itself.

I never said I avoid online willfully. There are instances where I avoid it for a period of time because I got swamped with random hatemail because of how I did in an offline tournament, but other than that, I don't consider it "beneath me" to play online if it's an option, so to speak.

I'm not so stuffed with pride that I don't acknowledge that online is all people have for some. So I'm not gonna start now.

 

[Argentus]

I assume you're talking about people online who are absent from lobbies and hold everyone up with infinite time? Because the way I see it, everyone has a chance to fight back otherwise. Some may be well-equipped to even win the battle, and some may not be. But we all must make up our minds and choose to commit to giving nothing less than our best when we pick up that controller and go thumb to thumb.

Also keep in mind that while I don't believe winning is everything, I still believe in playing to win. That being said, let's dial back to this whole respect scenario.

You said that it's disrespectful for an opponent to "steamroll" players who "can't fight back". I can see if the opponent they have a tough time beating is full of himself and actually projects a bad attitude to warrant the disrespect, but what about the opponent who says nothing to warrant the disrespect at any given time, yet someway, somehow, gets a streak going in a lobby? Are we gonna demonize those people too?

Have you given any thought that the latter players I mentioned want to tune out the drama associated with typical voice and text chat, and just want to keep themselves sharp any way they can, especially when online play is all they have to do it?

Have you given any thought that the reason they do that in the first place is because they're so used to receiving hate mail that they've learned to ignore what goes on in the text chat or voice chat?

Have you given any thought that the opponents those players beat rarely (if not ever) genuinely ask for help on overcoming something they don't understand how to beat?

Take all this into consideration before you judge some of these "douchebag" players online, in particular. After reading this thread, I could've easily been labeled into that scenario simply because I rarely chat at all. And some of the reasons I mentioned have contributed to my silence online.

Yeah what you're talking about isn't the same. There's a difference between someone not talking and getting a streak, versus a high level sticking around just to beat on low levels.

@Argentus

Aren't you the one that said if you're getting your ass kicked, you put your controller down and leave in the middle of the match? Yet... you're preaching about players being disrespectful? Let me guess... what you do isn't disrespectful. It's just misunderstood... right?

Here's a crazy idea: If a player gets destroyed, then he/she should go play other players at their own skill level.

But the "better" players shouldn't go versus others of their own skill level? Isn't that hypocritical?

And I already covered the controller thing in my first big post here.

I don't just "walk away" in the way you're thinking but I will just wait it out instead of rage when I can't figure out what to do. Usually this involves redirecting attention to phone or comp in the meantime. And again, its hard for me to see that as "disrespectful" due to the hypocrisy of the accuser, not to mention, they couldn't even tell unless I said so, because I was locked down.

Thats intetesting.... I have some rules of my own.....
I always back off after splatting my friends up against the wall, atleast for now, once they get better and learn how to get out of it then I'l start doing it again.... I always go for the ground attacks, I mean I let them know what they're options are when they're downed and if they keep Wake Up kicking I stomp on them until they back tech, what I won't do is use Pseudo Force Techs to stay at advantage and keep momentum.... thats just too much for someone who keeps asking me "whats the input for my characters Power Blow again ?"

I will never never pass up a chance to taunt my friends.... I mean its just irresistible..... plus the taunts are quite long so its like giving them a chance atleast..... infact I always go for Style points over Maximum Damage especially If I'm using the Ninjas. This always keeps the matches close..... well closer than me going for Maximum Damage.

And if all that doesn't work then we just play Tag.... they learn better when we're on the same team

Other than the taunts, same here.

 

[Darkslay]

So what is your version of having fun? comment below

I like to train with my characters, that's what i do for the most part.

Reminds Me of Dark Souls........ this game will bring out your inner troll whether you want it to or not.

This and Mario Kart got me so hard XD.

 

[Awesmic]

Yeah what you're talking about isn't the same. There's a difference between someone not talking and getting a streak, versus a high level sticking around just to beat on low levels.

I'm still not following the logic, but moving on...

What if the players in the lobby didn't care about that, or invited said player to begin with? Is it still "disrespectful"?

 

[Argentus]

I'm still not following the logic, but moving on...

What if the players in the lobby didn't care about that, or invited said player to begin with? Is it still "disrespectful"?

That's a pretty obvious no.

Like if I invite you to a lobby for matches, I know your Christie is a monster and what im in for. I'll get frustrated and tap out after a point but that's not on you.

But if say, you just join a random lobby, go all out against beginners, refuse to answer when they ask what to do, taunt and talk trash about how they should "get gud", then no, that's you being a disrespectful douche.

 

[Kohlrak]

I never said I avoid online willfully. There are instances where I avoid it for a period of time because I got swamped with random hatemail because of how I did in an offline tournament, but other than that, I don't consider it "beneath me" to play online if it's an option, so to speak.

I'm not so stuffed with pride that I don't acknowledge that online is all people have for some. So I'm not gonna start now.

Notice i didn't quote you saying anything about when you do or don't play online when i made my statement.

I'm just stating what is. It's why people avoid online. So i ask again, are you going to let it get to you so that you get that way that you are online?

I'm still not following the logic, but moving on...

What if the players in the lobby didn't care about that, or invited said player to begin with? Is it still "disrespectful"?

It would've been disrespectful to invite the guy in expecting him to take it easy on them. If he's known to be better, if they invite him in with anything other than a request for teaching, they're being disrespectful. In that case, i would suggest to him simply not to join, because it's a waste. If he's going to own you all anyway, why invite him? Only benefit to either side is to the weaker side to study, and the stronger side in getting better opponents. However, if no one is learning, it's just a waste of time unless they are of similar skill level. (I make the exceptions for chat [should it be stated in the invite], but he wouldn't enter the lineup, anyway, and would leave when he's ready to do matches).

But if say, you just join a random lobby, go all out against beginners, refuse to answer when they ask what to do, taunt and talk trash about how they should "get gud", then no, that's you being a disrespectful douche.

And what if he simply says nothing?

 

[Awesmic]

Notice i didn't quote you saying anything about when you do or don't play online when i made my statement.

I'm just stating what is. It's why people avoid online. So i ask again, are you going to let it get to you so that you get that way that you are online?

If you mean being part of the solution, then yeah. The problem is that the current community's perception of me is split down the middle, so it's hard to stay positive sometimes, try as I might these days. But I'm doing something about that in my own way.

 

[Bushido]

I literally just read the title and decided to reply. Respect in any form of competition is a touchy subject, but (for me) here's the bottom line:

If you don't have respect in any game for your opponent you will eventually fall flat on your face. Point blank period. Taking a risk and respecting your opponent are two totally different things. Now, mind you, respect goes out of the window when the skill gap is very visible. On an equal playing field, you must respect your opponent.