System Bad habit or good strategy?: “Respect” in fighting games

[Darkslay]

So, the second installment in this "series" is finally here, i've been mainly busy with other projects but i think its time to do another one of these as i got a pretty good response in the last one, both analytically and progressively.

This is yet again, a very touchy subject in the community and not exclusively to FSD but sites like SRK and Tekken Zaibatsu, among others.

The reason for this is that, when speaking of this specifically, terms like "mashy" and "scrub" fall in this gray area as well, for better or for worse, it seems pretty much anyone in every community has their own interpretation of "respect" when it comes to fighting games.

Sometimes even an overconfident person can be called "disrespectful" but, why is that? if that person proved his/her superiority by beating you 2-0 is it correct to call them that? in my opinion this is a yes and a no. Sure you beat the other person convincingly, but then the question of "how did you beat him/her?" also raises, leaving far to many factors and variants to be taken into consideration.

There's "disrespecful" behaviours and "strategies" in every fighting game, lets face it, we can take our game, DOA, as an example. in DOA taking risks when punishing is considered "disrespectful", or someone who fishes for CHs too much, or someone who doesn't "respect" the other player's wake up, list goes on.

Looking at it from the other perspective, do you feel like you're disrespecting your opponent? or what if you're just responding to something you found "disrespectful" from the other player? again, far to many things to take into consideration.

Lets take a couple more examples, say you're playing a fairly new player and you notice he/she's not pubishing or doing it improperly, are you going to punish him/her everytime to send him/her a message? or are you going to let it slide just this once to give him/her a chance and encourage him/her? how about when someone drops a combo and the other player was clearly waiting for it so he/she could "mash" out of it? is that "disrespectul"? was he/she belittleing their opponent's skill so much that they were convinced he/she were gonna drop that combo?

All in all, another very interesting subject that is just that, subjective, as with last time i'm waiting to see what you guys think and what your input is on this "bad habit or legit strat", keep it civilized. Cheers.

 

[RoboJoe]

AFAIK, "playing disrespectfully" is just another term for using abare. Abare is a legit strategy, though with lots of risk of course.

 

[Darkslay]

AFAIK, "playing disrespectfully" is just another term for using abare. Abare is a legit strategy, though with lots of risk of course.

This is true, however abare has a veeery different meaning depending on the game, for example, in a 2D game, abare usually refers to a character who benefits from random hits or trades just because all of their attacks do good damage, in a 3D fighter though, abare refers to a player that likes to attacks at frame dissadvantage, both of these can be taken either way, players like Poongko are respected in the community even though they are known for their risky play styles.

 

[Xernuht]

Abare is 100% legit, especially when you implement crushes.
Straight up button mashing is stupid.

 

[Darkslay]

Abare is 100% legit, especially when you implement crushes.
Straight up button mashing is stupid.

What if your crush is unsafe as well? there's a strategic edge to it sure, but at the same time you're taking advantage of your opponent's skill level.

Define "mashing" lol.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

Just do whatever it takes to win. It's the purpose of every single fighting game after all, anything used to reach that goal is legit.

There is no "grey area" bullshit argument in fighting games, no such thing as an honor code, fair play, respect, hidden rules to follow in order to fight with "dignity" or that sort of scrub talk, because anything that is virtually possible within the game is automatically legit (well except breaking tournament bannable offenses such as pausing the game). That's what makes them great.

If you don't like what you're playing, change game or blame it on the developers if you really have to, but never blame the player. Read this great article if you haven't: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

 

[Darkslay]

Just do whatever it takes to win. It's the purpose of every single fighting game after all, anything used to reach that goal is legit.

There is no "grey area" bullshit argument in fighting games, no such thing as an honor code, fair play, respect, hidden rules to follow in order to fight with "dignity" or that sort of scrub talk, because anything that is virtually possible within the game is automatically legit (well except breaking tournament bannable offenses such as pausing the game). That's what makes them great.

If you don't like what you're playing, change game or blame it on the developers if you really have to, but never blame the player. Read this great article if you haven't: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

Yes i have read the book actually good sir, kudos to you as well for knowing of its existence.

While i partially agree with what you said, you make mention of the term "scrub" and you say "anything virtually possible in the game", i've never agreed with the expression "a win's a win" mainly because of my analytic nature/personality, however i don't diminish people who do.

It all depends on what your definition of those terms are, and of course, two VERY different factors. Online and offline.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

Respect - On what level?

Player to Player = Good Game - even if you got your ass handed to you (I have many times). However, the losers that get beat badly whom take offense since they "couldn't play." Now, I know what most are gonna say: "That's scrub talk," but a good game to me is about how good the game was. Sure, you have the good game hogh foves after the sporting event, but if someone says: "We got run out of the building!" (IOW, there was no game played nor did the opponent show up).

If the better player is "picking on," the average player, beating him the hell up every time and enjoys it because it is easy or worse complains that player was running from him. You get alot of that shit online regardless of the game!

In gameplay terms (regarding characters), well, it should be obvious what respect/disrespect mean. I will use DOA and my main as an example!

Folks always ask how do you beat her? You disrespect that bitch like no tomorrow aka rush her down - don't give a fuck! However, knowing the tools she has (if she somehow gets a chance to use them), you better respect them, too since they are very deadly when used correctly!

The players who complain regarding her as such a spammy character, it is due to the unfathomable amount of disrespect as a character which stems back to DOA4 (which as a Boss, she was fucking stupid, but she was a BOSS! What did anybody expect? She frustrated me, too!) Or being mashy (there's a reason she floats leaving her open as fuck); yet, I've seen the rest of the roster be like this, too.

On respect though, usually you will hear this term from seasoned players regarding a character's moveset, certain strings/attacks making note of said frame data and/or how safe/unsafe a move or the character is. (ie: Phase 4. Alpha, Kasumi). "Said move should be respected since it gives that character so many options!" Which leads me to this bullshit:

How or why the hell do people not respect Alpha's lows? Nevermind them being slow as fuck and even more retarded when you BLOCK them - not hold - block (-25 on 2H+K). Yet, I believe it has to do with Helena's low sweep BS. No one seems to ever think to block those and I doubt they are as slow or as negative on block as Alpha's are! Many Alpha players automatically tell newcomers to watch only for her mid punches and kicks (aka she has no lows). This is why she can "spam" them to beat people! I haven't touch on the three mids that may come later (which folks also deem unfair since that adds up to a full combo)

The the disrespect to block and sit down, period! Players are told to constantly try to hold every single attack thrown out, but then rationalize how Alpha's lack of holding is the greenlight to just rush her down or how one hold from her opponents can fuck her up!

So, if she hold spams, you can keep attacking or even throwing her, but if YOU hold spam and therefore began to have that zit I call a face BURST! I don't understand what makes people think she has to play a different game than the one the other characters are playing or why she's even in it if that is the case? I mean, yeah, she can disrespect you, too; however, it's an issue when she in fact does it! Double-edged sword, I guess.

Lastly, what about respecting your own options? I think this is where the term mashing comes from! But I believe it has to do with how the game is set up.

You have the striking/faster characters (ie: Ninjas, Kasumi Clones). Since there entire game is built around "How many hits and flashy combos can I pull off!" they are the easier characters to use (I hear this alot with Alpha) Ulitizing their speed/poking/mixup ability to their advantage. (ie: The grapplers are screwed - and they are)

I have some friends who play Bayman and they tell me to let loose as Alpha since she has an incredible speed advantage over them. Yet, that can also be a disadvantage since all Bayman has to do is make a good READ before his offense can get going (and he doesn't just have grabs). When this happens, Alpha's speed is somewhat negated, unless she now holds or parries correctly to gain the advantage again. And of course, since Bayman, though lacking in speed and agility, doesn't lack damage output either on an attack, hold, throw or OH! (and again, he can rushdown, too).

So, both characters have to be respected due to what they have - maybe not in the since that "I won't rush you down!" However, I hear how giving too much respect to a character can be detrimental. While I agree, complete disrespect can get one in trouble, too! Therefore, balance it out!

In conclusion, the game in general is not respected on so many levels. If it were, we'd see alot more good games while seeing a proof of knowledge about the game! Less tearing someone down - which is tearing the comm down. Respect is a big word and some are just asking for "a little bit." However, one has to give it to earn it! In game wise, I, as Alpha could get fucked up all day long, but if I manage to get through all of that and get a win (and I don't have to "disrespect you" with my character though everybody says it's who she is and therefore has too), then tha is a won for both of us! (It'd also help if tips were given after a complete beatdown happens - if one does)

P.S. I don't wish to hear how I am whining about the flaws of Alpha because I am not. I have been accepted them. This isn't what this post was about. I felt she as a character (or myself as a player since she is only the extension of me since I am using her) would undeniably fit here!

Play hard! Play ro win. Play to have fun. Above all, be respectful. This goes beyond gaming! Thank you and good night!

 

[WAZAAAAA]

Yes i have read the book actually good sir, kudos to you as well for knowing of its existence.

While i partially agree with what you said, you make mention of the term "scrub" and you say "anything virtually possible in the game", i've never agreed with the expression "a win's a win" mainly because of my analytic nature/personality, however i don't diminish people who do.

It all depends on what your definition of those terms are, and of course, two VERY different factors. Online and offline.

Do the top professional fighting game players "hold back" on using any tactic in the game they're playing, or instead they go all in with all the techs at their disposal?

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

^ Explain to me where "Holding back" came from and why it is used as an "excuse" because not everyone plays aggressively. You mentioned tournament players, but what about casuals? I guess they'd be "holding back," too, though until they play more and can do more! IOW, I feel like this term is just as idiotic! So, again, why does it exist?

 

[WAZAAAAA]

^ Explain to me where "Holding back" came from and why it is used as an "excuse" because not everyone plays aggressively. You mentioned tournament players, but what about casuals? I guess they'd be "holding back," too, though until they play more and can do more! IOW, I feel like this term is just as idiotic! So, again, why does it exist?

I mentioned holding back because the OP stated that playing in some specific way was somehow a "touchy subject", which makes no sense to me.
Why did you bring up aggressive play though? I don't get it.
I said "techs at their disposal". If a "casual" has no tech at his disposal, he's not holding back; he's just not good enough to know about them lol.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

I mentioned holding back because the OP stated that playing in some specific way was somehow a "touchy subject", which makes no sense to me.
Why did you bring up aggressive play though? I don't get it.
I said "techs at their disposal". If a "casual" has no tech at his disposal, he's not holding back; he's just not good enough to know about them lol.

I brought it up since it is perceived that a fight consists of both opponents giving no fucks whatsoever! I'm sure you've heard the term: Going all out! Does this not mean playing aggressively? Or folks who like the conservative/defensive style. This can fuck someone up beyond belief as well. It just looks bad because it is deemed "safe," and playing safe is apparently a bad thing.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

I brought it up since it is perceived that a fight consists of both opponents giving no fucks whatsoever! I'm sure you've heard the term: Going all out! Does this not mean playing aggressively? Or folks who like the conservative/defensive style. This can fuck someone up beyond belief as well. It just looks bad because it is deemed "safe," and playing safe is apparently a bad thing.

I don't give a fuck how you play, just play

 

[Darkslay]

Respect - On what level?

Player to Player = Good Game - even if you got your ass handed to you (I have many times). However, the losers that get beat badly whom take offense since they "couldn't play." Now, I know what most are gonna say: "That's scrub talk," but a good game to me is about how good the game was. Sure, you have the good game hogh foves after the sporting event, but if someone says: "We got run out of the building!" (IOW, there was no game played nor did the opponent show up).

If the better player is "picking on," the average player, beating him the hell up every time and enjoys it because it is easy or worse complains that player was running from him. You get alot of that shit online regardless of the game!

In gameplay terms (regarding characters), well, it should be obvious what respect/disrespect mean. I will use DOA and my main as an example!

Folks always ask how do you beat her? You disrespect that bitch like no tomorrow aka rush her down - don't give a fuck! However, knowing the tools she has (if she somehow gets a chance to use them), you better respect them, too since they are very deadly when used correctly!

The players who complain regarding her as such a spammy character, it is due to the unfathomable amount of disrespect as a character which stems back to DOA4 (which as a Boss, she was fucking stupid, but she was a BOSS! What did anybody expect? She frustrated me, too!) Or being mashy (there's a reason she floats leaving her open as fuck); yet, I've seen the rest of the roster be like this, too.

On respect though, usually you will hear this term from seasoned players regarding a character's moveset, certain strings/attacks making note of said frame data and/or how safe/unsafe a move or the character is. (ie: Phase 4. Alpha, Kasumi). "Said move should be respected since it gives that character so many options!" Which leads me to this bullshit:

How or why the hell do people not respect Alpha's lows? Nevermind them being slow as fuck and even more retarded when you BLOCK them - not hold - block (-25 on 2H+K). Yet, I believe it has to do with Helena's low sweep BS. No one seems to ever think to block those and I doubt they are as slow or as negative on block as Alpha's are! Many Alpha players automatically tell newcomers to watch only for her mid punches and kicks (aka she has no lows). This is why she can "spam" them to beat people! I haven't touch on the three mids that may come later (which folks also deem unfair since that adds up to a full combo)

The the disrespect to block and sit down, period! Players are told to constantly try to hold every single attack thrown out, but then rationalize how Alpha's lack of holding is the greenlight to just rush her down or how one hold from her opponents can fuck her up!

So, if she hold spams, you can keep attacking or even throwing her, but if YOU hold spam and therefore began to have that zit I call a face BURST! I don't understand what makes people think she has to play a different game than the one the other characters are playing or why she's even in it if that is the case? I mean, yeah, she can disrespect you, too; however, it's an issue when she in fact does it! Double-edged sword, I guess.

Lastly, what about respecting your own options? I think this is where the term mashing comes from! But I believe it has to do with how the game is set up.

You have the striking/faster characters (ie: Ninjas, Kasumi Clones). Since there entire game is built around "How many hits and flashy combos can I pull off!" they are the easier characters to use (I hear this alot with Alpha) Ulitizing their speed/poking/mixup ability to their advantage. (ie: The grapplers are screwed - and they are)

I have some friends who play Bayman and they tell me to let loose as Alpha since she has an incredible speed advantage over them. Yet, that can also be a disadvantage since all Bayman has to do is make a good READ before his offense can get going (and he doesn't just have grabs). When this happens, Alpha's speed is somewhat negated, unless she now holds or parries correctly to gain the advantage again. And of course, since Bayman, though lacking in speed and agility, doesn't lack damage output either on an attack, hold, throw or OH! (and again, he can rushdown, too).

So, both characters have to be respected due to what they have - maybe not in the since that "I won't rush you down!" However, I hear how giving too much respect to a character can be detrimental. While I agree, complete disrespect can get one in trouble, too! Therefore, balance it out!

In conclusion, the game in general is not respected on so many levels. If it were, we'd see alot more good games while seeing a proof of knowledge about the game! Less tearing someone down - which is tearing the comm down. Respect is a big word and some are just asking for "a little bit." However, one has to give it to earn it! In game wise, I, as Alpha could get fucked up all day long, but if I manage to get through all of that and get a win (and I don't have to "disrespect you" with my character though everybody says it's who she is and therefore has too), then tha is a won for both of us! (It'd also help if tips were given after a complete beatdown happens - if one does)

P.S. I don't wish to hear how I am whining about the flaws of Alpha because I am not. I have been accepted them. This isn't what this post was about. I felt she as a character (or myself as a player since she is only the extension of me since I am using her) would undeniably fit here!

Play hard! Play ro win. Play to have fun. Above all, be respectful. This goes beyond gaming! Thank you and good night!

This is true, different types of characters have different styles of play in which they are most effective, grapplers have by default a very "respectful" play style since they basically feed from their opponent's mistakes, on the other hand, other characters can have the luxury of taking more risks since they have better tools (speed, poking game, etc.)

Do the top professional fighting game players "hold back" on using any tactic in the game they're playing, or instead they go all in with all the techs at their disposal?

You're beating your own reasoning with that statement. some "tech" or some "strategies" used in very high level play require the player to "hold back" as you say. Ever heard the "let them hit/grab you" mentality? Works that way.

 

[J.D.E.]

There is no such thing as a fair fight lol. Play to win 1st, shake hands & "GGS" afterwards.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

I want a fair Fight no lag Thank You

 

[KING JAIMY]

There is no such thing as ''disrespect'' WITHIN the game. Every move, combo or setup is legitimate. I'm talking about offline play, of course.

However, OUTSIDE of the game, I believe there are forms of insulting or cockiness which can be considered disrespectful. Some examples:

- Sandbagging: Intentionally picking low tier characters against lower level players. This is pretty arrogant and often looked down upon, also by me. It conveys a message like ''Hey, I'm able to beat you anytime and with any character. So why not pick a low tier character and beat you to destroy your soul?''
- Saying ''good game'' before the match is over and you are the one having the match lead.
- Insulting/taunting/belittling your opponent or calling your opponent names during, before or after the match.

In short, I believe there is no form of disrespect in the game itself. You could always call a ''mashy playstyle'' disrespectful, but this playstyle can be countered by playing patiently and benefiting from your block advantage. It's just as subjective as saying that someone plays ''cheap''. However, at the real life psychological level I definitely believe there exists such a thing as disrespect.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

You're beating your own reasoning with that statement. some "tech" or some "strategies" used in very high level play require the player to "hold back" as you say. Ever heard the "let them hit/grab you" mentality? Works that way.

If that kind of tactic helps to win then it's not true "holding back" lol.

 

[Darkslay]

There is no such thing as ''disrespect'' WITHIN the game. Every move, combo or setup is legitimate. I'm talking about offline play, of course.

However, OUTSIDE of the game, I believe there are forms of insulting or cockiness which can be considered disrespectful. Some examples:

- Sandbagging: Intentionally picking low tier characters against lower level players. This is pretty arrogant and often looked down upon, also by me. It conveys a message like ''Hey, I'm able to beat you anytime and with any character. So why not pick a low tier character and beat you to destroy your soul?''
- Saying ''good game'' before the match is over and you are the one having the match lead.
- Insulting/taunting/belittling your opponent or calling your opponent names during, before or after the match.

In short, I believe there is no form of disrespect in the game itself. You could always call a ''mashy playstyle'' disrespectful, but this playstyle can be countered by playing patiently and benefiting from your block advantage. It's just as subjective as saying that someone plays ''cheap''. However, at the real life psychological level I definitely believe there exists such a thing as disrespect.

True as well, however like @Intelligent Alpha was saying, that also goes in hand with you taking advantage of your opponent's skill level, a lesser way of "sandbagging" if you will, also physical and psychological disrespect is a given of course lol.

If that kind of tactic helps to win then it's not true "holding back" lol.

Uhhhh sure? lol.

 

[Xernuht]

What if your crush is unsafe as well? there's a strategic edge to it sure, but at the same time you're taking advantage of your opponent's skill level.

Define "mashing" lol.

DOA crushes aren't always safe, but that kind of defeats the point of them. Momiji's 8P is -11 on block, but it's an instant high crush at 15 frames, so I'll use it in situations that people are likely to throw highs at me (R1F, jab punishing my low-negative string enders). I won't just throw it out for no reason.

Mashing, as I think of it, is hammering on two or three different strings regardless of how effective that ends up being. Alas, I know some people who have a tendency to do this.