System Bad habit or good strategy?: “Respect” in fighting games

[Darkslay]

DOA crushes aren't always safe, but that kind of defeats the point of them. Momiji's 8P is -11 on block, but it's an instant high crush at 15 frames, so I'll use it in situations that people are likely to throw highs at me (R1F, jab punishing my low-negative string enders). I won't just throw it out for no reason.

Mashing, as I think of it, is hammering on two or three different strings regardless of how effective that ends up being. Alas, I know some people who have a tendency to do this.

Fair enough.

That's actually a pretty unusual interpretation but i think for that reason it makes a lot more sense.

 

[Pictured Mind]

First of all I wanna say respect is a weird term, especially when talking about people you don't know. Anyways there's two factors for me; The intention of the player and the fact that online is bullshit.

First of, when we're talking about playing online, there is no respect. Simply because DOA online doesn't work like it does offline. Even in a 4-5 bar connection there are still things that simply would or wouldn't happen offline. Especially if you play a character like Christie, Kasumi or Jann Lee. I don't care how many games you've played or how good you think you are, there is no respect from me.
Let's move on from the make-believe bullshit because I don't like the topic, even tho' I brought it up.

If you, as a DOA player and "community member" do not intend to help the community or the game, there is no respect.

For instance, take an offline tournament/casual session. I have respect for people who go to these, even if they're "bad" or new players. They support the offline scene and the game. I know players who I personally don't find all that good but they're supporting what I've said before, so I appreciate those people and we need them. I have a lot more respect for the Helena player who actively plays offline than the Helena player with 2000 online wins and three stars next to their name, or whatever weird ranks they have now.

Might have gone a little off topic, just wanted to say this.

 

[Darkslay]

First of all I wanna say respect is a weird term, especially when talking about people you don't know. Anyways there's two factors for me; The intention of the player and the fact that online is bullshit.

First of, when we're talking about playing online, there is no respect. Simply because DOA online doesn't work like it does offline. Even in a 4-5 bar connection there are still things that simply would or wouldn't happen offline. Especially if you play a character like Christie, Kasumi or Jann Lee. I don't care how many games you've played or how good you think you are, there is no respect from me.
Let's move on from the make-believe bullshit because I don't like the topic, even tho' I brought it up.

If you, as a DOA player and "community member" do not intend to help the community or the game, there is no respect.

For instance, take an offline tournament/casual session. I have respect for people who go to these, even if they're "bad" or new players. They support the offline scene and the game. I know players who I personally don't find all that good but they're supporting what I've said before, so I appreciate those people and we need them. I have a lot more respect for the Helena player who actively plays offline than the Helena player with 2000 online wins and three stars next to their name, or whatever weird ranks they have now.

Might have gone a little off topic, just wanted to say this.

Online is BS in every game lol, don't you worry.

I understand where you're coming from, i am an offline player and community manager before, unfortunately, the country where i live doesn't have a big DOA following, its mostly Tekken, SF and KOF here, but i have managed to pull some people in and create a small offline medium, still, there are conducts and behaviours that are not appropriate even in an offline setting that sometimes even end up in full fledged grudges and violent encounters (just look at Viscant and Low Tier God's incident last year), but i understand where you're coming from, online creates bad habits and stupid superiority complexes, which is a shame, mostly we where just discussing these types of subjects in both online and offline settings.

 

[Lulu]

I think its disrespectful if you use a cheap tactic.....
Well what qualifies as cheap you ask ?
Well...... anything....
To be more specific its considered cheap when you keep repeating a move that your opponent doesn't know how to deal with..... the disrepect comes from if you keep doing it but refuse to teach them how to deal with it....

So be patient with your fellow player, they want to get better and you obviously want someone to present you with a challenge, it behooves you to help them out.

 

[Brute]

Irrelevant.

 

[Lulu]

Oops..... all right then...... I think Sit Down Stuns are Disrespectful.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

Then play Mario Kart

 

[Lulu]

I would if I could.

 

[Kohlrak]

In MMA they say that throwing a cross before the Jab when the range is questionable is disrespectful. It means you're not afraid of getting punished, so obviously they don't hit hard or use good technique.

I extend that, saying that if your opponent can't tell you why he lost, it's disrespectful to the game.

So, if you do dangerous stuff repeatedly, you're disrespecting him (unless you don't know what you're doing). You're saying that you don't respect his punishing. If he fails to punish you, he deserves it, but at the same time that means he needs to learn something, somehow. If you fail to teach him, you're disrespecting the game, yourself, and the community. And when i say teach, you need to make an effort to try to help them understand, rather than just parroting something. I follow this for every game when i win, save when i fight against the computer. Hollow victories against someone who doesn't know what they're doing leaves a bad taste. Failure to generate good opponents from your victories cheapens you as much as it does the community as a whole (thus, there should be no "secret technique" [we do that in paid sports because we get paid, but if your opponent can't beat your strategy, you don't get paid by having a secret strategy since our only pay in games is getting better]).

 

[Darkslay]

Then play Mario Kart

That cracked me up so hard LOL.

In MMA they say that throwing a cross before the Jab when the range is questionable is disrespectful. It means you're not afraid of getting punished, so obviously they don't hit hard or use good technique.

I extend that, saying that if your opponent can't tell you why he lost, it's disrespectful to the game.

So, if you do dangerous stuff repeatedly, you're disrespecting him (unless you don't know what you're doing). You're saying that you don't respect his punishing. If he fails to punish you, he deserves it, but at the same time that means he needs to learn something, somehow. If you fail to teach him, you're disrespecting the game, yourself, and the community. And when i say teach, you need to make an effort to try to help them understand, rather than just parroting something. I follow this for every game when i win, save when i fight against the computer. Hollow victories against someone who doesn't know what they're doing leaves a bad taste. Failure to generate good opponents from your victories cheapens you as much as it does the community as a whole (thus, there should be no "secret technique" [we do that in paid sports because we get paid, but if your opponent can't beat your strategy, you don't get paid by having a secret strategy since our only pay in games is getting better]).

We talked about something similar in a previous post but basically, you can disrespect your opponent's skill as well as their knowledge, depending on the situation it can even get beyond that or not, however, on some situations its not necessarily "disrespect" from either player. This of course is just based on opinions.

 

[Argentus]

Just do whatever it takes to win. It's the purpose of every single fighting game after all, anything used to reach that goal is legit.

There is no "grey area" bullshit argument in fighting games, no such thing as an honor code, fair play, respect, hidden rules to follow in order to fight with "dignity" or that sort of scrub talk, because anything that is virtually possible within the game is automatically legit (well except breaking tournament bannable offenses such as pausing the game). That's what makes them great.

If you don't like what you're playing, change game or blame it on the developers if you really have to, but never blame the player. Read this great article if you haven't: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

This mentality is what it cones down to. There's peoples whose only concern is getting a win, so things like respect, sportsmanship, etc, have no place for them. This is also where the term "tryhard" comes from. As in, trying way too hard for a win at all costs even when there's no reason or reward for doing so.


Personally, if I see a person having a hard time, I'll ease up so they can learn. I gain nothing from just "winning" against them so its better to lower to their level till they can work up to mine.

Like if I see a clearly one sided match where one player can't keep up, that's not "gg" or "playing to win". That's just someone being a dick to a noobie, and it usually discourages the loser off of playing the game at all, which is a really bad thing.

^ Explain to me where "Holding back" came from and why it is used as an "excuse" because not everyone plays aggressively. You mentioned tournament players, but what about casuals? I guess they'd be "holding back," too, though until they play more and can do more! IOW, I feel like this term is just as idiotic! So, again, why does it exist?

This as well. In a tourney yeah sure go all out. But theres no reason to in casual play. Unless you are running casuals with fellow pro tourney goers, you're just being disrespectful towards other players for being a tryhard with the overkill.

DOA crushes aren't always safe, but that kind of defeats the point of them. Momiji's 8P is -11 on block, but it's an instant high crush at 15 frames, so I'll use it in situations that people are likely to throw highs at me (R1F, jab punishing my low-negative string enders). I won't just throw it out for no reason.

Mashing, as I think of it, is hammering on two or three different strings regardless of how effective that ends up being. Alas, I know some people who have a tendency to do this.

Yeah crushes are meant to well...crush enemy offense lol. Doesn't really matter if they're safe or not.

I think its disrespectful if you use a cheap tactic.....
Well what qualifies as cheap you ask ?
Well...... anything....
To be more specific its considered cheap when you keep repeating a move that your opponent doesn't know how to deal with..... the disrepect comes from if you keep doing it but refuse to teach them how to deal with it....

So be patient with your fellow player, they want to get better and you obviously want someone to present you with a challenge, it behooves you to help them out.

This too. You're just being a disrespectful ass if you do that instead of helping them figure out what to Do. Like I said its different if its a tourney, then yeah just play to win. But otherwise? Have some class and he respectful towards other players.

In MMA they say that throwing a cross before the Jab when the range is questionable is disrespectful. It means you're not afraid of getting punished, so obviously they don't hit hard or use good technique.

I extend that, saying that if your opponent can't tell you why he lost, it's disrespectful to the game.

So, if you do dangerous stuff repeatedly, you're disrespecting him (unless you don't know what you're doing). You're saying that you don't respect his punishing. If he fails to punish you, he deserves it, but at the same time that means he needs to learn something, somehow. If you fail to teach him, you're disrespecting the game, yourself, and the community. And when i say teach, you need to make an effort to try to help them understand, rather than just parroting something. I follow this for every game when i win, save when i fight against the computer. Hollow victories against someone who doesn't know what they're doing leaves a bad taste. Failure to generate good opponents from your victories cheapens you as much as it does the community as a whole (thus, there should be no "secret technique" [we do that in paid sports because we get paid, but if your opponent can't beat your strategy, you don't get paid by having a secret strategy since our only pay in games is getting better]).

Exactly. I've actually paused offline casual matches when the guy I was playing straight ignored me when I asked how to deal with what he was doing. I don't care if you're trying to win, don't be rude, especially to someone who's trying to learn.



Now all that said, I've been told I'm disrespectful in two situations.

1) if I'm getting creamed and can't do anything/can't figure out how to get out of it, I just put the controller down and wait it out. Im told that's disrespectful, I disagree based on the criteria of what the hell difference does it make, though either way I find it hard to feel bad when I find it disrespectful to wail on someone who can't fight back. However, there was a kid who dropped his controller at his opponents when he WON at the MKX tourney, and everyone wanted to beat his smug face up his ass for it. THATS disrespectful.

2). I've been told I'm being disrespectful for not using longer combos. This never made sense to me. Because a) i know how to do them, I just prefer a defensive bait and punish style, and b) it seems like it would be overkill when I'm doing fine without.



Bottom line for me, is that whether you win or lose is irrelevant in terms of how good or respectful you are. Its HOW you play and/or win. Going all out against an opponent who can't keep up is just being disrespectful to them, especially when you aren't teaching them how to keep up.

That and teabagging is always a dickmove.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

^ Yet, you have to realize too, that some ask for you to go all out though! I was playing a dude awhile back and he told me he would go all out. I told him that I was used to it. Would you believe I reciprocated and we went to five rounds? I lost, but hey! When one is pushed beyond his/her limits! Yet, again, I figured he wanted me to do the same, so I did! And folks are surprised when I do so at all, seeing how I, like you, am defensive, too; yet, I find hat under-estimating someone is disrespectful, but if you use that as motivation. Maybe it is then a good thing!

 

[WAZAAAAA]

This mentality is what it cones down to. There's peoples whose only concern is getting a win, so things like respect, sportsmanship, etc, have no place for them. This is also where the term "tryhard" comes from. As in, trying way too hard for a win at all costs even when there's no reason or reward for doing so.


Personally, if I see a person having a hard time, I'll ease up so they can learn. I gain nothing from just "winning" against them so its better to lower to their level till they can work up to mine.

Like if I see a clearly one sided match where one player can't keep up, that's not "gg" or "playing to win". That's just someone being a dick to a noobie, and it usually discourages the loser off of playing the game at all, which is a really bad thing.

There's no reward for playing video games in general, not just for "winning in fighting games". Your point is?
I would be pretty pissed off to know that someone is holding back against me. I thought only 9 years old could have a "plsss let me win" mentality lmao.
Both winning and losing are part of the game. If you somehow get "discouraged" for losing,

Then play Mario Kart

If I want to teach someone the mechanics of any game, I won't simply "hold back", I will completely stop fighting, start to communicate with the opponent and bring him into "practice mode". Hey do you know about the triangle system? Let me show you. Hold back to block strikes! Hey throw punishing is pretty important in DOA, etc. Holding back doesn't help if the opponent doesn't know what he's doing.

 

[Argentus]

^ Yet, you have to realize too, that some ask for you to go all out though! I was playing a dude awhile back and he told me he would go all out. I told him that I was used to it. Would you believe I reciprocated and we went to five rounds? I lost, but hey! When one is pushed beyond his/her limits! Yet, again, I figured he wanted me to do the same, so I did! And folks are surprised when I do so at all, seeing how I, like you, am defensive, too; yet, I find hat under-estimating someone is disrespectful, but if you use that as motivation. Maybe it is then a good thing!

Ya if someone asks me to I will, but first instinct is to scale it back so as not to discourage them. I've tried to go "all out" from the start and all that did was cause friends to give up entirely leaving me with nobody to play with.

There's no reward for playing video games in general, not just for "winning in fighting games". Your point is?
I would be pretty pissed off to know that someone is holding back against me. I thought only 9 years old could have a "plsss let me win" mentality lmao.
Both winning and losing are part of the game. If you somehow get "discouraged" for losing,If I want to teach someone the mechanics of any game, I won't simply "hold back", I will completely stop fighting, start to communicate with the opponent and bring him into "practice mode". Hey do you know about the triangle system? Let me show you. Hold back to block strikes! Hey throw punishing is pretty important in DOA, etc. Holding back doesn't help if the opponent doesn't know what he's doing.

There is actually a reward sometimes. That's the entire idea of tournaments. In which case go all out.

Also what you just described as "going into practice mode" is what I mean by holding back to help them figure stuff out.

But when ya just wail on someone who doesn't know how to fight back (not you specifically, I'm speaking generally), that doesn't say you want to "play to win", that comes across more as "you don't want a challenge, just an easy win".

Like I have a lot of respect for opponents who wait when I have to go afk, rather then those who beat on an idle opponent just for a win, or people who answer when I ask how to do something, rather than ignoring just for an easier win.

No its not their duty to help their opponent, but its still. INCREDIBLY douchey behavior outside of a tournament.

 

[Lulu]

There's no reward for playing video games in general, not just for "winning in fighting games". Your point is?
I would be pretty pissed off to know that someone is holding back against me. I thought only 9 years old could have a "plsss let me win" mentality lmao.
Both winning and losing are part of the game. If you somehow get "discouraged" for losing,If I want to teach someone the mechanics of any game, I won't simply "hold back", I will completely stop fighting, start to communicate with the opponent and bring him into "practice mode". Hey do you know about the triangle system? Let me show you. Hold back to block strikes! Hey throw punishing is pretty important in DOA, etc. Holding back doesn't help if the opponent doesn't know what he's doing.

You remind me of Seth Killian.

 

[Brute]

Like I have a lot of respect for opponents who wait when I have to go afk, rather then those who beat on an idle opponent just for a win,

Actually, they usually do it to keep the lobby rotation going so that they can actually play an opponent who fights back, rather than just waste everyone in the lobby's time by standing around staring at an AFK opponent. I find people who wait on AFK opponents to be rather disrespectful and discourteous to everyone in the lobby who are there and ready to play.

So it's quite the opposite of wanting an "easy win."

 

[Argentus]

Actually, they usually do it to keep the lobby rotation going so that they can actually play an opponent who fights back, rather than just waste everyone in the lobby's time by standing around staring at an AFK opponent. I find people who wait on AFK opponents to be rather disrespectful and discourteous to everyone in the lobby who are there and ready to play.

So it's quite the opposite of wanting an "easy win."

There is that, yes, but that's assuming its a large lobby with extended time matches etc.

But like, if I see someone stop moving in a small lobby or ranked match, I'll hold off a second to let em wrap up whatever pulled em away from game.

Going for benefit of the doubt

 

[Kohlrak]

Exactly. I've actually paused offline casual matches when the guy I was playing straight ignored me when I asked how to deal with what he was doing. I don't care if you're trying to win, don't be rude, especially to someone who's trying to learn.

Exactly. That shit needs to stop offline and online. I hear that doesn't happen at tournies, but it shouldn't happen at all, anywhere. It will, but we need to try to limit that as a community. We also need to take notice of when the skill level is too low to ask about such specific things.

Now all that said, I've been told I'm disrespectful in two situations.

1) if I'm getting creamed and can't do anything/can't figure out how to get out of it, I just put the controller down and wait it out. Im told that's disrespectful, I disagree based on the criteria of what the hell difference does it make, though either way I find it hard to feel bad when I find it disrespectful to wail on someone who can't fight back. However, there was a kid who dropped his controller at his opponents when he WON at the MKX tourney, and everyone wanted to beat his smug face up his ass for it. THATS disrespectful.

Pardon me for saying this, but their criticism is the lack of principles (they don't know why they're criticizing it, they just do [this becomes a big problem in religion as well just about anything where someone has an opinion]). If you threw it down to make a statement, that's one thing. If it made a loud bang when it hit the floor, i could understand. But if you're riding away the rest of your health bar, there's no point in holding that thing anymore.

2). I've been told I'm being disrespectful for not using longer combos. This never made sense to me. Because a) i know how to do them, I just prefer a defensive bait and punish style, and b) it seems like it would be overkill when I'm doing fine without.

I don't know what's going on there. I understand criticism, but not on a respect basis. It sounds to me like they're saying it for lack of a better explanation of why they're mad (AKA lack of principles). They hate it, but they don't know why, so they throw out a phrase that hurts alot to make you not do it. This is akin to having a job and that one person who constantly threatens to "take you to the office" for looking at them the wrong way. The easiest solution is to threaten the same thing, but make sure they realize you're willing to do it (in this case, call out their statement with ways it's also true of them, since they're throwing at you what hurts THEM the most).

Bottom line for me, is that whether you win or lose is irrelevant in terms of how good or respectful you are. Its HOW you play and/or win. Going all out against an opponent who can't keep up is just being disrespectful to them, especially when you aren't teaching them how to keep up.

That and teabagging is always a dickmove.

Teabagging isn't always so. If you're close to the person as a friend (or more) it can be seen as a challenge.

There's no reward for playing video games in general, not just for "winning in fighting games". Your point is?

Yeah, there is. It's the chase, and the friendship that can result from an even match. If winning was all that matered, there's this.

I would be pretty pissed off to know that someone is holding back against me. I thought only 9 years old could have a "plsss let me win" mentality lmao.

Beautiful strawman. The objective is to learn. Getting your ass beat non-stop without tips or a working method to stop what's kicking your ass teaches you to leave the game, which is something we have a massive problem with. I don't mean ragequit, i mean simply leave. This is why DoA can't the get sexuality passes that other games get. You don't disrespect a game that actually gets played.

Actually, they usually do it to keep the lobby rotation going so that they can actually play an opponent who fights back, rather than just waste everyone in the lobby's time by standing around staring at an AFK opponent. I find people who wait on AFK opponents to be rather disrespectful and discourteous to everyone in the lobby who are there and ready to play.

So it's quite the opposite of wanting an "easy win."

But it's disrespecting the guy that walked away. Let the guy keep him own disrespect for walking away without leaving rotation. He's only about to get kicked, anyway, so give him that much.

 

[Darkslay]

This mentality is what it cones down to. There's peoples whose only concern is getting a win, so things like respect, sportsmanship, etc, have no place for them. This is also where the term "tryhard" comes from. As in, trying way too hard for a win at all costs even when there's no reason or reward for doing so.


Personally, if I see a person having a hard time, I'll ease up so they can learn. I gain nothing from just "winning" against them so its better to lower to their level till they can work up to mine.

Like if I see a clearly one sided match where one player can't keep up, that's not "gg" or "playing to win". That's just someone being a dick to a noobie, and it usually discourages the loser off of playing the game at all, which is a really bad thing.



This as well. In a tourney yeah sure go all out. But theres no reason to in casual play. Unless you are running casuals with fellow pro tourney goers, you're just being disrespectful towards other players for being a tryhard with the overkill.


Yeah crushes are meant to well...crush enemy offense lol. Doesn't really matter if they're safe or not.

This too. You're just being a disrespectful ass if you do that instead of helping them figure out what to Do. Like I said its different if its a tourney, then yeah just play to win. But otherwise? Have some class and he respectful towards other players.




Exactly. I've actually paused offline casual matches when the guy I was playing straight ignored me when I asked how to deal with what he was doing. I don't care if you're trying to win, don't be rude, especially to someone who's trying to learn.



Now all that said, I've been told I'm disrespectful in two situations.

1) if I'm getting creamed and can't do anything/can't figure out how to get out of it, I just put the controller down and wait it out. Im told that's disrespectful, I disagree based on the criteria of what the hell difference does it make, though either way I find it hard to feel bad when I find it disrespectful to wail on someone who can't fight back. However, there was a kid who dropped his controller at his opponents when he WON at the MKX tourney, and everyone wanted to beat his smug face up his ass for it. THATS disrespectful.

2). I've been told I'm being disrespectful for not using longer combos. This never made sense to me. Because a) i know how to do them, I just prefer a defensive bait and punish style, and b) it seems like it would be overkill when I'm doing fine without.



Bottom line for me, is that whether you win or lose is irrelevant in terms of how good or respectful you are. Its HOW you play and/or win. Going all out against an opponent who can't keep up is just being disrespectful to them, especially when you aren't teaching them how to keep up.

That and teabagging is always a dickmove.

Excellent observation. The point of fighting new opponents or "newbies" is to bring them into the game and let them have their fair share of fun as well, not to beat every last bit of confidence they have out of them, you have to think that not everyone can be lucky enough to have an offline scene/partner to train them, a lot of people's medium of learning is mainly online. I'm also impressed at the way you used the term "tryhard" it always struck me as a nonsensical way of referring to a player, but under those circumstances it actually makes AT LEAST a little bit of sense.

You remind me of Seth Killian.

Oh my lord, that's a name i haven't heard in a while lol.

 

[Lulu]

Seems like he faded into obscurity..... which is good because he comes from a specific generation of fighters that are intolerable ass holes...... usually.

What the name of that Evo champion who plays to win All The Time Everytime..... even against casual play against kids ?

That dude was a dick..... he was a talented dick but a dick none the less.