Agreed.
Concerning Juggles
- Thread starter Nameless Sama
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Agreed.
@Argentus, you may not feel like you need to do combos and juggles, but at the end of the day you're only holding yourself back from expanding on your options against tougher matchups.
You say that your goal is to become better competitively. And you often tell me that you don't know what to do against Christie. Sure, you may get by every once in a while, but why settle for that when one of the goals in becoming a better player is to win consistently with the strategies you're using in an actual match?
If you only realized how much better you'd become if you applied the knowledge of using air juggles (among other things like guaranteed follow-ups) to your existing strategy, you'd look back at all this and laugh. But I certainly can't make you see this, you have to be willing to see the barriers of growth you're making for yourself. I honestly don't know why you feel that using such tactics is such a taboo, when directly compared to true infinites, this is quite normal in fighting games. At least give it a try.
You say that your goal is to become better competitively. And you often tell me that you don't know what to do against Christie. Sure, you may get by every once in a while, but why settle for that when one of the goals in becoming a better player is to win consistently with the strategies you're using in an actual match?
If you only realized how much better you'd become if you applied the knowledge of using air juggles (among other things like guaranteed follow-ups) to your existing strategy, you'd look back at all this and laugh. But I certainly can't make you see this, you have to be willing to see the barriers of growth you're making for yourself. I honestly don't know why you feel that using such tactics is such a taboo, when directly compared to true infinites, this is quite normal in fighting games. At least give it a try.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
Well
A) well aware I'm being stubborn
B) juggles are not fun and I see no reason to play in a way I do not enjoy.
C). If I could just figure out what of Christies hits are highs and mids I could get some footing against you lol.
D). I already know how to do juggles and follow ups and whatnot. I simply do not enjoy playing that way. Like at all. You've seen that I still do them here and there when the opportunity comes up, but I'm not aiming for it. I always hesitate to use them because it feels like a copout.
E). By definition, someone who can consistently win without having to rely on juggles or guaranteed damage is going to be a good player. Its a bit of a road but that's my goal.
Though I may break out the juggles and whatnot for a tournament because fuck it not trying to have fun or be a good player, I'm there to make money lol
But for everything else I'd rather focus on becoming better.
I want to get good enough to consistently outplayy opponents, not just get wins because I do some big juggle off a launcher. There's no satisfaction in that. I didn't beat anyone, I just memorized some input.
By your definition, players like Infiltration and Daigo are not good players because they memorize juggles or do juggles. This is the most idiotic statement i have ever seen in my life.
RoboJoe
Well-Known Member
Am I the only one who feels a disconnect with the thread title and the topic creator's post?
Also, lol at the hate of combos! This is a competitive forum. A large part of improving as a competitive player is by optimizing your gameplay by removing unnecessary movements and maximizing damage. Combos are an integral part of that. If you don't optimize, you will never become as good as you can be. That's a fact, not an opinion. If you don't want to get better, that's fine, but don't spew your poisoned ideology on a competitive site because this is where new players come to get better. If a new player that actually wants to get better and comes to this site hoping for knowledgeable players to help them start out and you go telling them shit like "...setup launchers for juggle damage instead of learning how to fight and deal actual damage." you are confusing them and gimping them from becoming better and that goes against everything competitive play stands for.
Also, lol at the hate of combos! This is a competitive forum. A large part of improving as a competitive player is by optimizing your gameplay by removing unnecessary movements and maximizing damage. Combos are an integral part of that. If you don't optimize, you will never become as good as you can be. That's a fact, not an opinion. If you don't want to get better, that's fine, but don't spew your poisoned ideology on a competitive site because this is where new players come to get better. If a new player that actually wants to get better and comes to this site hoping for knowledgeable players to help them start out and you go telling them shit like "...setup launchers for juggle damage instead of learning how to fight and deal actual damage." you are confusing them and gimping them from becoming better and that goes against everything competitive play stands for.
No one's asking you to rely on those 100% of the time. But it would benefit you greatly if you were well-rounded in utilizing any damaging options you have, even if it requires using a juggle.
And it's not just inputs in a combo you need to memorize. You also have to memorize what moves are unsafe as well as how to respond to them, among other numerous situations to have the upper hand against your opponents. Associating an "illegitimate victory" with memorization is a moot point. Memorizing your situations and learning how to adapt accordingly in an optimal fashion is a layer of strategy to strengthening your own playstyle. Learning how your opponent plays against you and using it to your advantage is another layer of strategy.
My point is to simply be well-rounded with your tactics. Embrace your options, and neglect nothing. There will be times when you won't have to use everything in your arsenal against some opponents, and there will be others who will push your limits. But you will never know this firsthand when fighting an opponent for the first time. In this case, always consider the latter when engaging them. As long as you're trying your best and others can see it, that is satisfying enough.
Gurimmjaw
Well-Known Member
About the first 10 posts were originally in the Mortal Kombat thread. It was going off topic so Brute made a new topic concerning this so appears that Nameless Sama is the topic creator.
Honestly guys, you are wasting your time. You already posted your reasons on juggles. His view on this will not change at all no matter how much you try to reason with him. If he doesn't want to utilize juggles so be it. He's only hurting himself. He can't really complain others do juggles either cause it their for them to take advantage of.
RoboJoe
Well-Known Member
Ok thanks, that makes sense.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
Exactly. I have no issue recognizing them as a tool, beyond them being my least favorite tool.
The point I was making, is that, as was shown repeatedly in this thread, is that too often people obsess over juggles, thinking them to be the only way of winning.
I still find them boring however.
But see fgc needs more like you who think things through for responses instead of the mindless bashing that usually happens.
SilverForte
Well-Known Member
Stupid topic is stupid, go play divekick if you don't like combos. Heck you could probably play soulcalibur as some chars get big damage off of only a few hits in that game, ezio only has 1 launcher for example.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I don't think anybody that has posted in this thread believes what is stated in the bold. A player could know all the juggles and combos in the world; It makes no difference if they do not have the skill or the fundamentals to land that initial hit consistently in a fight.
The point everyone is trying to make is that juggles are there to maximize your damage whenever you land a hit. In a fight between two high level players nobody is going to give the other enough opportunities to secure a win through poking. Poking simply does not do enough damage. If you need numbers in DOA a single counter hit poke is 22 damage at the least with people like Ein having a 236P that does 56 damage on counter hit excluding wall and environmental damage.
So the Ein player would have to hit you with 236P 6 times on counter hit and the guy doing pokes would have to hit 14 times to secure a win. You forcing yourself to play like this does not make you a better player at all. What makes a player the better player is outplaying his opponent through superior tactics. The most important thing that makes a good tactic a good tactic is efficiency.
As an Ein player it is not efficient for me to try and win a fight solely through whiff punishment. That is not happening in high level play because high level players do not present many opportunities for that to take place. I must take advantage of every stun I get and juggle / throw my opponent for Hi counter damage. I must take advantage of the wall splats and dangerzone hits from my whiff punishment and followup on them with a juggle. This is how Ein gets his damage.
Keyword here is DAMAGE. If singular pokes were more damaging than juggles players would opt for those instead. Players should use whatever is optimal for getting them damage because it is the most EFFICIENT way to WIN. It is your REWARD for outplaying your opponent and landing a hit on them.
The reason you get the heat you do is because you are basically indirectly criticizing players for wanting to get the most out of a given situation with points that are not proven to be true. Using juggles doesn't make a player worse; It is neglecting fundamental skills in fighting games that does this.
I stopped replying & following in this thread for 3 reasons:
1. I knew that it would get like this after the 2nd page when I responded: out of hand.
2. I knew that it would lead Argentus saying that "He's getting bashed" ( & I didn't bash him not once, gave him facts as to why juggles are there so you must be referring to someone else on this thread) & why when I tried to tell him not once but twice in 2 different posts that people were going make a mockery out his theory & concept of fighting games. Honestly, I only saw one person's post that you could've found insulting & that was Luna Kage's.
3. Once I read the last response, there was no reason to respond again because both parties of the conversation going on was dead set their statements. Only difference was one was facts, the other was an opinion, one that indirectly criticized players for going further & perfecting craft of their game with strong potential damage.
Along with others to follow up with my last response with posts questioning his. So what did you honestly expect? People not to reason with you & just up agree with you when they actually know what the purpose was of a basic mechanic?
So, me personally since it was part of the MK dicussion that turned into a juggling discussion, before anyone else comes in here with an input potentially flamming him because like I said there only one so far, I would just lock the thread.
1. I knew that it would get like this after the 2nd page when I responded: out of hand.
2. I knew that it would lead Argentus saying that "He's getting bashed" ( & I didn't bash him not once, gave him facts as to why juggles are there so you must be referring to someone else on this thread) & why when I tried to tell him not once but twice in 2 different posts that people were going make a mockery out his theory & concept of fighting games. Honestly, I only saw one person's post that you could've found insulting & that was Luna Kage's.
3. Once I read the last response, there was no reason to respond again because both parties of the conversation going on was dead set their statements. Only difference was one was facts, the other was an opinion, one that indirectly criticized players for going further & perfecting craft of their game with strong potential damage.
Along with others to follow up with my last response with posts questioning his. So what did you honestly expect? People not to reason with you & just up agree with you when they actually know what the purpose was of a basic mechanic?
So, me personally since it was part of the MK dicussion that turned into a juggling discussion, before anyone else comes in here with an input potentially flamming him because like I said there only one so far, I would just lock the thread.
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