OSTCarmine
Active Member
lies
Crap Tier
- Thread starter Russian-chiropractic19
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lies
Arnell Long
Active Member
This isn't DOA4...but even then my answer was always a >Yes<.
Baron West
Member
Historically bottom tier characters have always been competitive in DOA games. Zack, Helena, and Bass were capable of beating top tiers in DOA2, and Christie and Brad were able to beat top tiers in DOA3.
Even though I suspect that the VF characters having more plus frame moves than the DOA characters is going to allow them to dominate, I don't think the bottom tier characters will be hopeless.
DOA2 we got Bayman clone.
DOA3 we got Ein clone.
DOA4 we got Gen-Fu clone.
...but in those same games we got two completely new fighting styles. So it makes you wonder. Since Leon is a clone to begin with, and I can't really picture a female other than Nicole doing the Desert Falcon, I don't think he'll get a clone.
Even though I suspect that the VF characters having more plus frame moves than the DOA characters is going to allow them to dominate, I don't think the bottom tier characters will be hopeless.
DOA2 we got Bayman clone.
DOA3 we got Ein clone.
DOA4 we got Gen-Fu clone.
...but in those same games we got two completely new fighting styles. So it makes you wonder. Since Leon is a clone to begin with, and I can't really picture a female other than Nicole doing the Desert Falcon, I don't think he'll get a clone.
I think he's referring to Eliot, but they don't appear even remotely like clones to me.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Of course not, completely different animations and fighting styles. That would be like saying Brad Wong is a clone of of Helena.
No he wasn't, they only move they share is the super throw launcher. He's a completely different character with his own set of animations and style.
MaxwellMouse
Active Member
I mained Jann Lee in 4, right now he appears to have been improved. So I hopefully won't have to worry about that. If he turn out to be bad though, I would still use him as long as he was fun. I would just make sure to have another character.
Baron West
Member
Clone might be misleading because he's not as similar to Gen-Fu as the Karatekas and Soldiers are to each other...and that's probably a bad thing. If he had more of Gen-Fu's moves he'd have been a lot better.
Umpei isn't the only move Eliot got from Gen-Fu. Eliot does have a lot of new animations, but off the top of my head I can think of at least 5 moves he got from Gen-Fu and I played relatively little DOA4. I'd like to think there are more. Gameplay wise he's a lot like Gen-Fu, relying heavily on his mids for offense. Unlike Gen-Fu his mids are weak, so he's overly reliant on delaying strings in order to come up with a decent offense.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
He has about a hundred or so moves, and the 5 that you couldn't name or show make him a clone? You're pretty much calling everyone in DOA4 a clone if up close mids and delayed strings defined a character. Look you're wrong, there's no shame in that. He didn't need more of Genfu's moves, he had his own, the system itself made using his parries useless, his back turn throw useless, his guarbreak pointless, etc. . . half the cast got the shit end of the stick because of DOA4s last minute flawed system changes.
OSTCarmine
Active Member
lol, i like this line right here. the sneak shot, not quite a direct insult... not NOT an insult either
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Trust me I've been wrong many times and tried to fight my way out of it, haha.
Baron West
Member
Actually...yes.
When those 5 or so moves out of a 100 are signature moves, then I do think of a character as a clone. In Tekken 3 I thought of Hwoarang as a Baek clone, even though technically he only had 6 or so moves that were the same as Baek. Hwoarangs strings were all very different from Baeks, as were his options out of Flamingo. But since he had the Sky Rocket, Hunting Hawk, Heel Explosion, and command grab...Baek's signature moves, and best punisher...he was a clone.
Eliot is the same. I can't think of a better word to describe two characters who have the same signature attacks.
It's not that I can't name any of the moves Eliot got from Gen-Fu per se...I just can't name them properly. I didn't play Eliot enough to memorize his conventions, and I gave away my copy of DOA4 so I can't go back and check.
Off the top of my head(and excluding umpei), Eliot has Gen-fu's 3K, 6K, 6P+K(though Eliot's doesn't KD), 2P+K~P+K, 66P, 7K and FC3P(though Eliot's is not FC).
The 6P+K, Umpei, and 2P+K are Gen-Fu's signature moves. They're also Eliot's signature moves.
Saying that Eliot is a clone of Gen-Fu isn't anywhere near the same as calling Brad a clone of Helena.
A true clone, through and through, would be more along the lines of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf in Super Smash Bros. Melee. What you're describing isn't really a clone, but I'm not sure what word to use for it.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Bullshit is the word. We've already agreed that they share very little, apparntly Genfu has signiture moves, whatever that means. A clone is something closer to Ein and Hitomi where almost everything is shared between them and little new. Same with Bayman/Leon/Spartan, share a majority of their animations. By his definition Tina/Bass/Lisa are clones.
Yeah, even Ein/Hitomi and Leon/Bayman are different enough that I wouldn't call them clones. Semi-clones somewhat, but not true clones.
OSTCarmine
Active Member
clones! CLOOONES! what does it matter really, they are fun to play with and the majority of people WELCOME additions to the character roster for DOA.
Baron West
Member
In Street Fighter EX Allen Snider has completely different normals from Ryu/Ken, a different throw, different guard break, new command throw, and no hurricane kick. But since he has a Hadoken, Shoryuken, f+MK, and a Shinku Hadoken, people call him a Shoto-clone. 4 out 26 moves isn't a majority of moves in common, but since the moves he has are Ryu's signature moves...he's a clone. Even though 2-D games have much smaller move lists than 3-D games, the point is that it only takes a few moves to make Allen a clone.
Funny you mention Ein and Hitomi though. In terms of the moves they share, it's not like they have a 90% similarity or even an 80% similarity. It's more like Hitomi has 50% of Ein's moves, but it seems like more than that. Their "cloneness" isn't a point of debate though.
By my definition, Tina, Bass, and Lisa are not clones. Tina and Bass only share four moves(Tina's 6F+K, 2F+K, 236P, and 6P+K), and those moves aren't central to their game.
You don't want to call them Eliot a clone of Gen-Fu clones, I understand completely. A clone to you is someone who shares at least half the move list. I just don't have anything else to call a character that borrows core moves and relies on them the same way. A derivative? This debate really isn't productive, so we can just agree to disagree.
Yeah, and that's just programmers being lazy. I was quite disappointed in Gannondorf and Falco. Back in the days of SF2, it was ok that Ryu and Ken were the same, because SF was the first, and drawing those sprites wasn't a walk in the park. Nowadays, outside of SF, I really don't like seeing characters that are just a rehash of other characters, especially in 3-D games. I always think "this clone took the spot of what could have been a new character".
Anyways, if I had to make an educated guess I'd assume that the same characters that were bottom tier last time around will be bottom tier again, if everyone is improved by the same margin. The tier list doesn't change very drastically between DOA games, but I don't mind being surprised. I'll play Brad, Zack, Helena, Akira, and Christie even if they're bottom. Even though at this point I think it's impossible for Akira to be bottom tier.