Dead or Alive 5 Alpha Demo System and Character Discussions

[Raansu]

Do wake-up kicks still give the same deep stun when you are hit by them? Also, are they still like projectiles?

Edit: I am talking about the same deep stun from DOA4.

Yes they still stun.

No they are not like projectiles anymore. They are extremely easy to avoid and punish.

 

[Allan Paris]

Yes they still stun.

No they are not like projectiles anymore. They are extremely easy to avoid and punish.

That's good that they are not like projectiles anymore, but them still stunning that deep is not a good look. So we have good or at least a better back dash now? Is that what you mean by easily avoiding the wake-up kicks?

 

[Raansu]

That's good that they are not like projectiles anymore, but them still stunning that deep is not a good look. So we have good or at least a better back dash now? Is that what you mean by easily avoiding the wake-up kicks?

Well ya, stepping in general is about the pace of doa3 so getting out of the way is easier. But most they are just easier to interrupt, especially the low wake ups. I've interrupted mids a few times with 3f+k but the low is interrupted easily with stuff like 9k and 2kk and 3f+k. It doesn't glue to the bottom of your feet and trip you like it did in doa4.

 

[Allan Paris]

Well ya, stepping in general is about the pace of doa3 so getting out of the way is easier. But most they are just easier to interrupt, especially the low wake ups. I've interrupted mids a few times with 3f+k but the low is interrupted easily with stuff like 9k and 2kk and 3f+k. It doesn't glue to the bottom of your feet and trip you like it did in doa4.

I can live with this, thanks for the info.

 

[TRI Mike]

I don't know if this happened to you guys in the previous games but I was not able to recognize a mid hold animation from a high one with some characters. In the alpha, the three holds are very different and is much easier to react by seeing them and avoid getting caught by the opponent.

 

[Raansu]

I don't know if this happened to you guys in the previous games but I was not able to recognize a mid hold animation from a high one with some characters. In the alpha, the three holds are very different and is much easier to react by seeing them and avoid getting caught by the opponent.

Maybe I'm just used to the animations as it seems the same to me. High holds the hands were always up by the head, mid holds were always by the waist. I'm glad that it's easier for you to differentiate them now though.

 

[DrDogg]

Like all other fighters, the game is going to boil down to 50/50's.

Name one other (current) competitive fighter that boils down to primarily 50/50s at the highest level of play.

What you're not understanding is that the demo is nothing but guessing (50/50 or not). That is not a good thing.

I haven't played the demo yet but because of how Hitomi is she is already super strong out of those 4 characters. If she knocks you down you have to get up without a wake up kick because she can stand just outside of range charging and if you don't do a kick just cancel it and apply pressure with 3f+k (I think that's the notation for it in the game) again. And that works for a big portion of the cast.

But you can counter 3H+K on reaction, which means the opponent is safe to get up and no pressure is applied.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Name one other (current) competitive fighter that boils down to primarily 50/50s at the highest level of play.

Street Fighter: Option Selects limiting the multiple options an opponent has to one or two ways to escape an otherwise six different ways to escape, is one. Jumping cross-ups or resets are another, vortex, having an opponent in block stun and not sure if they're going to backdash or srk out of the block stun, to name a few more. Tokido has even gone on record as saying he hates playing Daigo because Daigo will always go for SRK after a pressured block stun instead of mixing up - just to hope for the chance he gets the "Ume-shoryu". After those inital setups it's up to dexterity for combo timings and situation.

 

[ShinMaruku]

If you ask me it's more 60/40 than 50/50. Ya need a huge amount of moves to cut the 50/50 thing down.

 

[Raansu]

Every fighting game has guessing in it.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Some are more educated guess thna others. and option selects cut down some of that guessing. And some games have such strong options that you just do it and when it works you have something to work with. (Like Kurosru's log trap)

 

[virtuaPAI]

Name one other (current) competitive fighter that boils down to primarily 50/50s at the highest level of play.

What you're not understanding is that the demo is nothing but guessing (50/50 or not). That is not a good thing

-What you are not understanding, when it is said and done, fighters boil down to you either being right, or you being wrong. If there is any choice being made, you are in fact guessing. There is simply no getting around it.

Some are more educated guess thna others. and option selects cut down some of that guessing. And some games have such strong options that you just do it and when it works you have something to work with. (Like Kurosru's log trap)

-At the end of the day, both players are guessing. There is just some who believe that no such guessing is happening when they play anything outside of Doa.

 

[DrDogg]

Street Fighter: Option Selects limiting the multiple options an opponent has to one or two ways to escape an otherwise six different ways to escape, is one. Jumping cross-ups or resets are another, vortex, having an opponent in block stun and not sure if they're going to backdash or srk out of the block stun, to name a few more. Tokido has even gone on record as saying he hates playing Daigo because Daigo will always go for SRK after a pressured block stun instead of mixing up - just to hope for the chance he gets the "Ume-shoryu". After those inital setups it's up to dexterity for combo timings and situation.

An option select in SF is not a 50/50, and in some cases it's not a guess at all. Vortex is a guess, but only a few characters have it. Counterholds and guessing in DOA are a blanket statement for the entire game. No other current competitive fighting game has that much guessing as a core system mechanic.

-What you are not understanding, when it is said and done, fighters boil down to you either being right, or you being wrong. If there is any choice being made, you are in fact guessing. There is simply no getting around it.

-At the end of the day, both players are guessing. There is just some who believe that no such guessing is happening when they play anything outside of Doa.

In other fighting games it's an option to guess. I rarely guess when playing SC or Tekken, and in the few instances in which I do guess, the consequences from my incorrect guess are minimal.

Let's look at how I "guess" in SC5:

- I guess that my opponent will retaliate after blocking my safe attack, so I buffer a Just Guard. If the opponent attacks and I guess right, the Just Guard is successful and I "might" get a guaranteed attack. If I guess wrong and the opponent does not attack, I'm left simply blocking... taking no damage. If the opponent throws, I can still buffer a throw break during the Just Guard.

- Maybe I guess that the opponent will do a high attack, so I iMCF with Yoshi to tech crouch under the high. If the high comes out, I get a CH stun into a combo. If the opponent does a mid or low, my iMCF wins because it's i10. If the opponent does nothing, the iMCF is safe, so I'm fine. If the opponent steps, the iMCF recovers fast enough to avoid any major damage.

In DOA you're forced to guess a good numbers of times per round, and if you guess wrong, you're taking big damage. There's no comparison at all between guessing in DOA and guessing in other fighting games.

 

[Jefffcore]

Option selects are there to remove guessing.... Ex. Jump in Option Select: (Assuming the don't have a DP) You do a safe jump, so already you're safe after your attack. If they do anything but block the attack you buffered will hit them in the face. Only exception are characters with Teleports; that you will have to guess with.

 

[DrDogg]

My responses from the consolidated feedback thread:

Even those treating it like DoA4 have wrong information like DrDogg with his whiff punishment and hold statements.

I'm not wrong. What I stated is fact. It's not my fault you don't understand how whiff punishing works in other fighters compared to DOA.

That's something you and Rikuto both share. He has had just as much trouble playing SF - or any 2D game for that matter as most were built off of SF2's design.

I can play SF just fine. I don't have any "trouble" playing it. I just don't enjoy playing it and have difficulty putting in the hours needed to get to a high level of play.

I believe this happened primarily due to the nostalgia of the "Mortal Kombat in Arcades" that they focused on bringing back. They were able to bring in the casuals who were still there, casuals who remembered the past, and hardcores who have been wanting a return to that past. This was basically the same pull that Street Fighter had in giving a resurgence to the community by going back to a similar play style of Street Fighter 2. I do not think Dead or Alive can pull such a feat off because it's not in the same general social consciousness to pull that off.

Because DOA has never had a competitive scene... even when it was in arcades.

Free canceling is unsafe because the frame disadvantage/advantage is applied upon the end of the recovery animation, and continuing a string overrides playing of the recovery animation. The opponent is in a block stun during that recovery animation though.

The opponent can still punish. Block Hitomi's PP (-7 on block), free cancel out of it and try to interrupt a 5-frame throw punishment with an attack. The throw hits every time.

Gimme 4 point holds, more useful stuns, and Busa his crushing ability back and I'm happy.

Edit: Better ground game would be nice, too

Why does Busa need to be able to crush true mids and low attacks again? No thank you.

-Buffering seems off. Hitomi's 46p (back forward punch) is very difficult to pull off and 90% of the time only 6p comes out.

I had no problems executing this attack.

 

[Jefffcore]

Why does Busa need to be able to crush true mids and low attacks again? No thank you.

Because they've slowed him down, and made him quite a bit more unsafe. It would be nice if he at least had his ability to crush. Even just one... Like his 2F+K.

 

[DrDogg]

Because they've slowed him down, and made him quite a bit more unsafe. It would be nice if he at least had his ability to crush. Even just one... Like his 2F+K.

Um... no. Everyone should have somewhat equal crushing abilities, unless they excel elsewhere. Hayabusa already has very good advanced holds, a good air throw, and as a grappler, a 4-frame standard throw. None of the other characters in the demo have any of that, yet you want him to be able to crush everything in the game again.

No... just no.

 

[Jefffcore]

So he can punish and can do good damage with holds; that's all defensive. To get his air throw he has to actually land a hit/get a stun, that's not easy when he's hella slow and can't crush. And I don't want to see Hitomi nerfed, i wanna see the other characters brought up to a level where they don't get massacred. Busa just needs 1 tool for that. Right now he relies mostly on Ninpo shenanigans.

 

[DrDogg]

How is crushing anything but defensive? o_0

 

[Jefffcore]

It's avoiding an attack. That's no different than hit level priority, so in that thinking every attack would be defensive. I'm throwing an attack assuming I'm going to win, therefore it's offensive, unless you're doing it out of block to crush a string. The point is, is that his tools to get hits are limited against fast characters.

 

[Berzerk!]

I want to use this thread to respond to statements made in the consolidated feedback thread

The point is I play all of these games. I am not ignorant of anything. DOA is bad competitively, and no matter what kind of justifying anyone does for it, it's not going to change this fact.

The people who actually enjoy competitive DOA always, and I mean always fall into one of three camps.

1. They suck ass at other games but excel at DOA, thus giving them a bubble of delusion.

2. They excel at other games, but suck ass at DOA and assume it's better than it is because they can't improve at guessing.

3. They suck at everything but still can't seem to shut the fuck up about how great they think DOA is.

No, not always, and I mean NOT always. I agree those categories exist, but there are other categories that exist and will be created as players of other games discover the new DOA.

I'd be category 4 - Likes DOA and plays other games at a high level. I play SF4 at a competitive level. I play SC5 at a competitive level. I play Virtua Fighter 5 at a competitive level. I play DOA at a competitive level.

I do not fit into your categories above and I think DOA5, based on the demo is going to be a great game competitively. I need more time with it and it needs to be completed before I start fully comparing it to those other games, but I can already see myself playing it alongside VF5 as my two main games. That's not simply from a fandom perspective as I have plenty of games to compete in and people to play with. I actually have been known to place top 8 in 80-100 man SF4 tournaments so I've dedicated a lot of time to it. 3D games are my preference but I play a shitload of 2D.

With that perspective I have to disagree with the above and say this game is on a good track. I consider VF5FS the best fighting game around and I think DOA5 could come close.

Its not just "casual" DOA fans that need to change their thinking, it's DOA players who think they're the hardcore and need to get out and play other games at gatherings AND play DOA at gatherings with other fighting game players, teach them the game, then let them run and listen to their impressions while being open to adjusting your own.

It's been a positive eye opener taking DOA5 demo to gatherings this last week. People like it and it can develop a whole new community. This old-paradigm stuff... lets put it to bed on both sides.

I've never once had "trouble" playing a 2d fighter. I simply never gave them any of my time.

If I actually cared enough to become good at street fighter I'd be a fucking wrecking ball in that game. Same thing with Marvel, KoF, and even MK.... which when I was dicking around with for all of two weeks, I wasn't too shabby at, if I recall.

So you didn't play it as a dedicated tournament player, but you'll claim you could have been great. Come on, I know you're a talented player but that talk doesn't wash. I don't claim to be great at SF4 but it seems I've played it competitively more than most here by the looks of it. I know Perfect Legend and ChrisH have played a lot of tournament SF4 over the last few years but I haven't seen them comment much lately. What I have seen from them on DOA5 has been positive.

DrDogg was on the right track earlier in thread to talk about showing the game to a whole range of players, but we should put old prejudices aside and all try to educate players on what the game is. The new game, and what it can be - not the old stereotypes of who plays DOA. It's a very different fighting game community now.