Dead or Alive 5 Alpha Demo System and Character Discussions

[Aion]

I should repost what I though would be a good solution (from SRK):

There's a very simple solution to hold's out of stun; a solution you would come across if you look between the see-saw balance of offense and defense; risk and reward/greed.

-I think, that if the attacker lands a good stun, he/she should be rewarded; so the defender should not be able hold out of that initial stun. The attacker then has the guaranteed options/follow-up of going for a launcher/natural combo etc (not a power blow however).

-See, if the attacker then wants to get greedy, throw away his guaranteed damage because he/she wants to go for more (i.e increasing the stun threshold), an element of risk must be added. So I think the defender (for example) should then be able to hold out of the 2nd stun.

-So, if the attacker STILL guesses right he/she should then be rewarded again for taking that big risk and reading/guessing correctly; meaning that the 3rd stun should not be able to be held out of, granting greater reward than the first stun as now you can get higher launchers/damage and even a Power Blow like we saw in the Akira trailer.


The current problem is that holding out of stuns from the get-go and every step of the way does not reward a good offense; but not being able to hold at all rewards offense way too much. We don't want to make the game linear, and we don't want to remove guesses completely. The stun system is good because it is a branch of gameplay that comes after spacing/zoning; a new branch of gameplay/mini-game that comes after a hit is landed.

With a good fighting game, each scenario arrived should present it's own depth and branch of gameplay. Which is why I would agree with Caliagent in saying Combo Breakers in MK9 are rubbish. There are no real set of options when it comes to Combo Breakers as you can't bait them; which means that you can't do anything about it other than NOT attack or not combo etc. You have to hit them to trigger it which makes it one-sided; if you want them to waste it you have to get hit. Bursts in Guilty Gear on the other hand, present a deep branch of gameplay. They can be baited in a multitude of ways; punished in a multitude of ways; executed successfuly in a multitude of ways etc.


And I agree with Cali once again when he says: "The game only needs a few changes to make it truly competitive."

This is very true; I think that people give DOA less credit than it deserves, maybe because of DOA4. DOA has a system with real good potential imo; it just needs the right tweaks/tunings and fleshing out and it will be a really great game. It just needs to be able to grow in the right direction; not completely altered

And like Cali agreed on the SRK thread; I would limit the idea of not being able to hold out of initial stuns to only certain types of stuns.

I also see alot of 'we want to make DOA competitive', when the actual phrase doesn't make sense. A game doesn't make itself competitive; the players do. There is no such thing as a 'competitive game' as a standalone concept; a 'competitive game' or sport is only dubbed as such because people take it competitively.

I would also like it if people respected DOA more. The game has its merits; yet I see people wanting to sell that in an attempt to appease this imaginary 'l337' crowd. Well most people these days play games like SFIV, and SFxT...and I think these games suck majorly (among others)...to the point where I think that people who play these games seriously have no right to hate on DOA...not even DOA4.

To put it simply; I think some of you guys are overestimating the 'competitive' FGC and what it recognizes as a good, tournament worthy game. Amazing games like VF have been underappreciated forever. Now that alone should say enough.

 

[Jefffcore]

I should repost what I though would be a good solution (from SRK):



And like Cali agreed on the SRK thread; I would limit the idea of not being able to hold out of initial stuns to only certain types of stuns.

I also see alot of 'we want to make DOA competitive', when the actual phrase doesn't make sense. A game doesn't make itself competitive; the players do. There is no such thing as a 'competitive game' as a standalone concept; a 'competitive game' or sport is only dubbed as such because people take it competitively.

I would also like it if people respected DOA more. The game has its merits; yet I see people wanting to sell that in an attempt to appease this imaginary 'l337' crowd. Well most people these days play games like SFIV, and SFxT...and I think these games suck majorly (among others)...to the point where I think that people who play these games seriously have no right to hate on DOA...not even DOA4.

To put it simply; I think some of you guys are overestimating the 'competitive' FGC and what it recognizes as a good, tournament worthy game. Amazing games like VF have been underappreciated forever. Now that alone should say enough.

HERESY!

 

[matsu]

I just thought about something quite simple but it could be effective about holds.

The damage received from a hold should be recoverable,making it a defensive tool as it is supposed to be without granting you extra damage.But if you get hit again you definitely lose the recoverable part,Encouraging players to take back the offensive.Or use it from idle to make your opponent think twice before attacking.
Like this if you land hit you get what you earned and the defender still has an opportunity to avoid damages.

The exception should be the expert hold considering the mid punch/kick limitation and the input making it in theory less spammable and harder to do.

And there should be more strikes with frame disadvantage (a small window to punish as in Soulcalibur to reward good defense and knowledge of the game) as guarded low within a string for example, or a risky but rewarding move as a good launcher.

I agree about the defender not being able to hold out of the first stun,but only if it was a counter,giving the attacker the choice of doing guaranted minimal damages or taking the risk to extend his combo.

I 'd also like to know what you think about extended damages on counter throw.

I am just taking an example with ein:
Land any hit wich stuns, the opponent does a high/mid hold , 33(counter) 97 damages only with the throw...
Hit again ,if the opponent is an average player he would react with a low hold to avoid being thrown again, 2(counter)82 damages......crazy mind game have a nice day.
Ein isn't a grappler lol.(works with almost anyone anyway)

Extended damages on a counter throw is interesting but too powerfull.

And i hate the fact that you can't break a throw.I know that you can break the standard one in doa5.
Thank you TN ,but seriously, you know my main has plenty of more interestig throws so ..... why use it? even more if my opponent can break it.
I think doa really needs this mechanic which needs work ,reaction or reading ability,aka some kind of skill.
This is a missing tool for defensive playstyle imo.

I have other ideas but i do not want to make a wall of text for my second post(i know it's too late ... )

Edit :dashing and ducking are so low.

 

[Matt Ponton]

The damage received from a hold should be recoverable,making it a defensive tool as it is supposed to be without granting you extra damage.But if you get hit again you definitely lose the recoverable part,Encouraging players to take back the offensive.Or use it from idle to make your opponent think twice before attacking.

I like the idea of this, but worry how it may be implemented. You're basically saying that normal holds would be like a Street Fighter 4 Armor property? Where taking the hit does the damage but the life force replenished to the initial point slowly over time? Interesting...

 

[matsu]

Oops what i meant was the damage "of" a successfull hold.Making a decent risk reward for the offensive player.And still giving a chance for the defender to minimize the combo with a hold.

If you get hit it's your fault,The hold breaks the offensive but does'nt give cheap damage. forcing the opponent to defend next if he wants to replenish his life.
And giving a chance to the previous defender to take back the offensive with a bonus "canceling the life recover."+the damage he deals of course.

The stun system is as a juggle,The hold was implemented to avoid taking a full combo each time,ending a match with two long combo.(who said tekken...)

Landing a hold interrupts the combo and is not supposed to be a damaging tool imo.But giving it 0 dmge would be totally unfair with the risk of being thrown.

The actual hold system rewards you even if you're in disadvantage.And the counter throw was implemented to minimize the problem of holds,but the damage ouput of it is a problem too for me.
Two good throws as said above with ein and it's over not a smart decision from my point of view.


Quite as SFIV but instead of losing life you deal damge which can be recovered and giving you a situational advantage.

 

[UncleKitchener]

TN don't really have the facility to do the Namco/SEGA style of game testing, but do they have the money to push the game forward in events? I thought they spent quite a lot of money touring Europe a month ago, so they're probably sitting on gold toilets or something.

 

[HokutoNoBen]

To put it simply; I think some of you guys are overestimating the 'competitive' FGC and what it recognizes as a good, tournament worthy game. Amazing games like VF have been underappreciated forever. Now that alone should say enough.

So much this. But that much goes right along with what d3v posted as an article a while ago:

http://www.freestepdodge.com/thread...mate-only-if-there-are-people-playing-it.479/

And honestly? I still agree with that assessment. Because if it weren't true, the Western FGC would likely do more to support older games like Vampire Savior and CvS2 as well, instead of focusing primarily on whatever is "new, popular and convenient".

 

[virtuaPAI]

So... saying that you're not competitive at other fighting games (which is the truth), is suddenly belittling and negatively classifying you? Wow...

-The belittling aspect is you thinking that we are not informed, and trying to class us as "Doa only players...so they must not know what they are talking about" attitude. There is no need to backtrack now. you implied it, so stick with it. The truth is, I am not competitive in any current fighters, but I was in the past. It also doesn't hurt that I was personally trained by one of the best known players in the FGC, who broke every single thing down to me about competitive play for months on end. Trust, I am very much aware of what makes a fighting game competition worthy.

Not always. There are plenty of attacks that have more recovery on whiff because there's no block stun to pad the recovery.

-There is no block stun in whiff punishment! Block stun is a stun that only occur after an attack is blocked...thus the naming block stun. Just like hit stun is a stun that only occur after an attack hits.

-This is still just a demo, and I do see the game stepping in the right direction. With a few tweaks here and there, Doa5 will be a great game.

 

[Chris Harris]

@Dr Dogg - I understand all you are saying as I branched out heavily and I understand where you are coming from. DoA is a game of momentum and they put the counter in to stop momentum and put it back in your favor. That is where the mind games begin, etc, etc.

In other competitive fighters that's where the mind games end unless you go for a reset. Once you get a hit you either hit confirm into a knockdown or combo. After the knockdown then you can move forward with some type of offense or just take the advantage of knocking someone down. That doesn't happen in DoA which is where a lot of players stop playing the game.

For DoA to be accepted by the "masses" it can stay the way it is. With the guessing but the damage has to be there to justify hitting someone and the defender having a tool to get out . This is why I like the idea of stun > launch (provided you get the max launch height no matter the stun) because it only allows for ONE guess unless YOU go for more damage. DoA isn't strong on punishment as other fighters that offer launchers or an attack that gives advantage. In DoA you are given throw punishment which would be better if you didn't have phantom wake up kicks.

If they want to focus punishment on throws so heavily wake up kicks need to be toned down really hard. They need to be punished so getting a knockdown has a significant purpose. Because being knockdown should be a "crap I got knocked down" not a "oh well i got knocked down". In DoA getting knockdown doesn't have a strong enough meaning because of the heavy defense options you get from getting knocked down. It's so meaningless to the point that backing off of someone after knocking them down is more common than pursuing the advantage.

I still am a believer of holds having like some crazy disadvantage on them. Like -35-40 but that was in DoA 4 when holds did insane damage lol.

 

[DrDogg]

I added my replies from Berzerk's thread to help clean that up a little bit, so this post has a lot of replies in it.

I personally believe that if you were to say make that a guarantee after guarding then you're starting to push the envelope of the system. What's to stop someone from just throwing the move out there repeatedly?

The same thing that stops me from using frame adv attacks over and over in other fighting games. Usually an attack that gives you frame advantage is relatively slow. I use it to get my frame adv, then I have to use a faster attack to make sure the frame adv is used properly.

You're right though. The simple fact that there's guessing in DOA is not my main issue. It's the fact that guessing is forced on you all the time... far more than in any other fighting game. If you want to break it down farther, my personal style of play is to be as safe as possible. I have the option of doing that in most other fighters, but it's near impossible to play safe in DOA (including the demo).

They've already solved that problem; you can't spam holds. The problem is the constant guessing, and ease of guessing with 3point.

What's preventing you from spamming holds? I've had no problem doing so.

Just making up crap here, but what if they added a meter system that could be either used for your PB or critical stun parry which gets you out of mid high or low? No?

I would actually be okay if meter determined when you could hold, but I don't think a majority of DOA players would be happy with that change. I don't think DOA continues to be DOA if holds are based on meter usage.

What the game needs is more NH launchers and for moves to be stronger in general. Right now the entire game revolves around getting a stun and playing within a mix up to get more damage.

Having the launch height at maximum no matter what the stun is would be great. It would give a reason to not play with the stun game as much which would mean if you get stunned you get 1-2 guesses at most. The problem still lays that you get to guess while being hit which is probably what people hate the most. In all fighters once you get hit that's usually it unless they can't get a combo from whatever poke they were using or they drop the combo. In DoA hits don't normally knock you down unless you go for a single attack and they don't CH crumple so the only way to truly get a combo is to stun your opponent while standing so you can go for a launcher/throw set up.

If there were certain attacks that left the opponent standing in a stunned state (something like Hitomi's 6p+k) that led to a free launcher or stun mix up game would be nice.

This is why I like the idea of stun > launch (provided you get the max launch height no matter the stun) because it only allows for ONE guess unless YOU go for more damage.

I've been asking for normal hit launchers since I started posting here. However, I don't want stun, then guess. I want stun, then free launch/combo. Counterholds clearly aren't going anywhere, so you'll always be able to counter that first attack that puts the opponent in a stun. If I hit that attack, I do not want the opponent to be able to counterhold and escape the situation or inflict damage to me.

The demo does not currently have this. Change that one thing and DOA suddenly becomes competitive.

Ok, gotcha. My suggestion was just to balance out the game, not to make him top tier. If I had better knowledge of the other characters I'd do the same, but I haven't had time with them. As it stands, I can tell you that Hayabusa is going to be really bad against faster characters because of his lack of options.

What kind of options do you need? Something that crushes mids? Really?

If we're using Hitomi has an example of a fast character, then I don't see what you're so concerned about. 90% of her attacks are unsafe or high. Duck and punish, or block and punish and she'll stop using those "fast attacks".

I'd hate to say it, but I'm pretty sure Bass will be slower and have less options than Hayabusa. I think the problem is that you're too accustomed to God-tier Hayabusa with an option to escape every situation and damage the opponent.

By playing well in the game as it is now, you minimise guessing to a very acceptable level. I do not find players flouting guesses and feel like I'm losing ground because of silly luck on the side of my opponent in DOA5.

Are there any videos of "playing well in the game"? My experience with the demo has been pretty much the same as my experience with DOA4. The same problems I have with DOA4 are still prevalent within the demo. They've been lessened a little bit, but they're still very much there... to the point that I would not want to play in a tournament for the game if it plays like the demo come September.

Can people give me reasons why Ayane is good? I really want to see matches between people but it seems like the community is too small and spread out for that.

I don't play Ayane, so my opinion shouldn't be taken as fact, but she gets a free combo from her throw where she slides between your legs. I believe that's a 7-frame throw. Given the amount of attacks that are at least -7 in the demo, that translates to Ayane getting a free combo after blocking almost anything. None of the other characters have something like that (at least to this extent).

To put it simply; I think some of you guys are overestimating the 'competitive' FGC and what it recognizes as a good, tournament worthy game. Amazing games like VF have been underappreciated forever. Now that alone should say enough.

Pretty much every game worthy of heavy competitive play is played heavily in tournaments somewhere in the world. VF has a solid scene in Japan. KoF is decent in Japan and huge in Mexico. Tekken is big everywhere except the US. Where in the world has DOA ever been competitive?

No one is using the dictionary definition of "competitive" when we say DOA5 in it's current state (the demo) won't be competitive. We mean that it will not be accepted as one of the main competitive fighters. Right now those would be (in the US), AE 2012, SFxT, UMVC3, SC5, MK9 and KoF13 (basically the Evo lineup). To a lesser extent you could say BB, but then you could also say Tekken 6 and neither of those games have much of a competitive following in the US at the moment.

Your definition of competitive would mean that DOA4 was a competitive fighter, and I don't think anyone here would really agree with that.

And i hate the fact that you can't break a throw.I know that you can break the standard one in doa5.

You can't add throw breaking to DOA until you change how punishment is handled. Even if that is changed, you still have to adjust the throw system before you allow them to be breakable. Right now you can't buffer a throw break (or anything else) while holding Block. You'd have to react once you got thrown, and with throws being so fast, it's unlikely the break window would be more than 3-4 frames.

Anyone know what the break window is on neutral throws?

-The belittling aspect is you thinking that we are not informed, and trying to class us as "Doa only players...so they must not know what they are talking about" attitude. There is no need to backtrack now. you implied it, so stick with it.

I think that you're informed when it comes to DOA, but not what needs to be changed to make DOA widely accepted as a competitive fighter. This is what I have determined based on your posts. If you were left in charge of making DOA into a competitive fighter, I would have very little faith in you getting the job done. I think you'd make a game that DOA players love, but gets the same competitive reaction as DOA4 from everyone else.

I assume this is because you don't play other fighters competitively, because if you did I thought you'd react like everyone here who disagrees with you (and in turn, agrees with me). It seems that is not the case since you used to be good at other fighters. Therefore I have no reasoning for the way you think, but I still hold firmly to that fact that you don't know how to make DOA into a widely accepted competitive fighter.

I think the people who only play DOA need a say in how DOA5 shapes up, because in the end it's their game. However, if those same people want to see DOA at Evo and other tournaments with good turnouts, you need input from people like myself. You don't seem to want that input and therefore you are classified as such.

Look at it this way. If I didn't want to see DOA perform well at tournaments, then I wouldn't care what you had to say about the game.

-There is no block stun in whiff punishment! Block stun is a stun that only occur after an attack is blocked...thus the naming block stun. Just like hit stun is a stun that only occur after an attack hits.

-This is still just a demo, and I do see the game stepping in the right direction. With a few tweaks here and there, Doa5 will be a great game.

That's what I've been saying this entire time... >_>

 

[Berzerk!]

Nice points on knockdowns Chris. Have you had a chance to play the demo? I think you'd like the wall game as it can't be held or wake up kicked out of.

I think the wakeup kick game needs a little more analysis. It's definitely improved as I see moves crushing wakeup kicks depending on height/position, but I don't know the exact usage as I haven't had the opportunity to break this part of the game down. It would be nice if sidesteps in the right direction as the wakeup kick opens up could allow you to reliably step them. The idea would be to step in the direction the kick is moving in, so you step around its circular hitbox.

It's good that Powerblows appear to reliably crush wakeupkicks, but it can be hard to get enough time to position, charge, and release as the wakeup kick comes out. Maybe wakeupkick recovery needs to be looked at.

I have to add that its nice that there is a "get off me" element, it just needs to be toned down. I think they have tackled this to a degree in DOA5 demo. There's also moves that let you knockdown and oki/tech the opponent up so they can't wakeup kick

On the points about the DOA mindgame, I think that's one of the refreshing things about DOA, that you don't autopilot your same approach from SF etc. Attackers should be rewarded, but that doesn't mean it has to be in the same way/sequence as other fighters.

Stun > Launch is not bad, coupled with the fact there are neutral launchers now, but the idea to remove or delay the defenders ability to counterhold out of a deep/critical stun would reward the attacker who landed a heavy hit or took the risk to extend a stun.

 

[DrDogg]

I think the wakeup kick game needs a little more analysis. It's definitely improved as I see moves crushing wakeup kicks depending on height/position, but I don't know the exact usage as I haven't had the opportunity to break this part of the game down.

Helena has the ability to evade all wakeup kicks in DOA4 with different options. It turned the wakeup game into a guessing game, which I do not like. As long as you have the option to do a mid wakeup kick, the player on the ground will have the advantage (or at least too much of a chance to get up with ease).

I like how SC5 handles wakeup. If you choose to attack off the ground, I can interrupt your attack because I have frame advantage while you're grounded. However, if I opt to use that frame advantage, you can stand and block to avoid the grounded attack (unless the situation gives me a guaranteed grounded attack). As the grounded player you can stand and block or attempt an attack, but as the offensive player I can force you to do what I want you to do. It's my choice, not yours.

 

[Chris Harris]

Helena has the ability to evade all wakeup kicks in DOA4 with different options. It turned the wakeup game into a guessing game, which I do not like. As long as you have the option to do a mid wakeup kick, the player on the ground will have the advantage (or at least too much of a chance to get up with ease).

I like how SC5 handles wakeup. If you choose to attack off the ground, I can interrupt your attack because I have frame advantage while you're grounded. However, if I opt to use that frame advantage, you can stand and block to avoid the grounded attack (unless the situation gives me a guaranteed grounded attack). As the grounded player you can stand and block or attempt an attack, but as the offensive player I can force you to do what I want you to do. It's my choice, not yours.

This is what I am talking about mostly. In other fighters getting knocked down is just like throwing a turn over. You DO NOT get a turn to change the tide cause you messed up and got knocked down. You "could" try something but it can be beat clean and make the knockdown even worse for you. Wake up kicks need to be toned down so heavily to the point it's just not as good an option as it is now. There 100% should not be 3 of them because it becomes too much of a guessing game.

Now if you could beat wake up kicks clean with attacks or just make them heavily punishable then the game would be much better because then you have something to work with.


Also like you Dr.Dogg I am an advocate of trying to stay safe and use certain methods of playing. In DoA it's possible but it still pulls you into the whole countering and guessing game. In 5 at it's current state there are ways around playing that type of game (from what I have seen and heard thus far).

I will be playing it in a week and I'll get more of a grasp on it personally.

 

[Berzerk!]

Helena has the ability to evade all wakeup kicks in DOA4 with different options. It turned the wakeup game into a guessing game, which I do not like. As long as you have the option to do a mid wakeup kick, the player on the ground will have the advantage (or at least too much of a chance to get up with ease).

I like how SC5 handles wakeup. If you choose to attack off the ground, I can interrupt your attack because I have frame advantage while you're grounded. However, if I opt to use that frame advantage, you can stand and block to avoid the grounded attack (unless the situation gives me a guaranteed grounded attack). As the grounded player you can stand and block or attempt an attack, but as the offensive player I can force you to do what I want you to do. It's my choice, not yours.

I like SC5 but I wouldn't want its wakeup game for DOA. It's too "sticky" (sluggish even) for DOA's flow. VF5 is the preferred model, which has wakeup kicks but their priority and stun are lessened and in certain situations you can sidestep around or hop of the opponent if they are going to wakeup kick - and that leaves them slightly at disadvantage.

Getting hit with a wakeup kick in VF doesn't grant the waking player with stun or advantage. Neutral is good enough. If you standup without wakeup kick to avoid crush/evade tactics you can be attacked and its back to the attackers initiative. All very fair and gives the defender opportunity to get up and start things again without taking complete momentum from the attacker.

Knockdowns should, at the end of a ground game or combo, give the player a chance to get up and try again.

 

[Chris Harris]

I like SC5 but I wouldn't want its wakeup game for DOA. It's too "sticky" (sluggish even) for DOA's flow. VF5 is the preferred model, which has wakeup kicks but their priority and stun are lessened and in certain situations you can sidestep around or hop of the opponent if they are going to wakeup kick - and that leaves them slightly at disadvantage.

Getting hit with a wakeup kick in VF doesn't grant the waking player with stun or advantage. Neutral is good enough. If you standup without wakeup kick to avoid crush/evade tactics you can be attacked and its back to the attackers initiative. All very fair and gives the defender opportunity to get up and start things again without taking complete momentum from the attacker.

Knockdowns should, at the end of a ground game or combo, give the player a chance to get up and try again.

In SC or any other fighter for the most part you do get to get up and try again. You don't get an option that completely reverses the momentum though. If there is such an attack it has quite a negative outcome if blocked or it costs something to use it because it is powerful. Wake up kicks in DoA are pretty much free attack that stuns and gives you momentum for being knocked on the ground.

So say you get whiff punished and knocked down it's almost a good thing because he hit you so now you get to play the guess game for being punished. The attacker is rewarded with nothing in this regard unless he guesses right for knocking you down. Do you see how weird that sounds?

 

[virtuaPAI]

SNIP

-The issue at hand is not mutually exclusive, with one action automatically referring to another. This is why your deduction fails. Your deduction also fails due to you believing that your view is the only correct view. You have yet to play a Doa game competitively that have the tools and assets that are currently in this build. So the conclusion that you currently possess is not based on fact, but with your experience with Doa4(which others have pointed out to you more than once).

-Also, I never said I did not want to hear other people's input. It is the fact that you have never played a competitive doa with Doa5's current tools and assets. So how can you automatically tell someone they are wrong, when you yourself are playing it like Doa4? This is the problem right here! You could have easily stated what you would have liked changed instead of attacking people. It is your insistence on proving someone wrong with incorrect statements that is making you look foolish. You can look at every single post on this forum on how Team Ninja can fix Doa5, where have I outright disagreed and said I would not want any such changes? There is not one. I have went as far as agreeing with Rikuto about the removal of holds in stun as a possible solution. I have openly accepted all discussion on what changes could be made. Once again it is you making assumptions because someone doesn't agree with YOU!

Wake up kicks in DoA are pretty much free attack that stuns and gives you momentum for being knocked on the ground.

So say you get whiff punished and knocked down it's almost a good thing because he hit you so now you get to play the guess game for being punished. The attacker is rewarded with nothing in this regard unless he guesses right for knocking you down. Do you see how weird that sounds?

-This is something that needs to be fixed. With the side rolls having an increased Stepping properties, the defensive player is capable of just side rolling an opponents attack, and/or than hitting with a kick. This is enough defense a grounded opponent needs. They can easily remove the invulnerability frames so that they act as regular attacks(and can be punished as such), and remove the high kick as well.They can also make them more punishable on block...-12, -14.

 

[DrDogg]

You have yet to play a Doa game competitively that have the tools and assets that are currently in this build.

Tournaments consisting of 6-10 players and a scene totaling no more than 30-40 players throughout the entire life of the game isn't exactly a proper testing ground for competitive play.

I have not played 3.1 and probably never will... But I have played the demo, and I do not believe the demo would be accepted as a competitive game by a vast majority of the FGC.

So how can you automatically tell someone they are wrong, when you yourself are playing it like Doa4?

Have you seen me play the demo? How do you know I'm playing it like DOA4?

I tried to play it like I play other competitive games. I didn't even attempt to play a match until I had made an Excel file with frame data so I knew what attacks I wanted to focus on. Guess what? Frame advantage didn't mean much, there were no guaranteed damage setups and virtually no wakeup pressure.

The demo still has all the problems than DOA4 has (from a competitive standpoint). I did not want to play DOA4 again so I'm waiting until the E3 build.

You could have easily stated what you would have liked change instead of attacking people.

Perhaps you should try looking at my posts as me sharing my point of view and not attacking people. You've said far more things that can be taken as attacks than I have. I'm not attacking anyone and I didn't even aggressive defend my stance until you started acting like I don't know what I'm talking about and your vision of DOA is the best DOA.

It is your insistence on proving someone wrong with incorrect statements that is making you look foolish.

I don't think I look foolish at all.

You can look at every single post on this forum on how Team Ninja can fix Doa5, where have I outright disagreed and said I would not want any such changes? There is not one. I have went as far as agreeing with Rikuto about the removal of holds in stun as a possible solution. I have openly accepted all discussion on what changes could be made. Once again it is you making assumptions because someone doesn't agree with YOU!

I don't feel like digging through each thread to quote examples of this, but you make just as many assumptions as I do.

Bottom line, I stated that the demo is not competitive. You said that it is. I stated my reasons why I believe you're incorrect. You took it as an insult and decided to lash out. Not my fault you can't have a debate without getting your feelings hurt.

This is how I am. You think I'm being harsh and lashing out because of how you read my text. You're incorrect. Ask just about anyone who's talked to me in person. I talk exactly the same way, but you wouldn't feel as though I'm belittling you.

 

[Berzerk!]

In SC or any other fighter for the most part you do get to get up and try again. You don't get an option that completely reverses the momentum though. If there is such an attack it has quite a negative outcome if blocked or it costs something to use it because it is powerful. Wake up kicks in DoA are pretty much free attack that stuns and gives you momentum for being knocked on the ground.

So say you get whiff punished and knocked down it's almost a good thing because he hit you so now you get to play the guess game for being punished. The attacker is rewarded with nothing in this regard unless he guesses right for knocking you down. Do you see how weird that sounds?

I'm with you Chris, I think the key words here are that on wakeup there should be an opportunity (not guarantee) for the defender to stop or get a pause in the momentum, not reverse it.

I agree that defender claiming immediate advantage on wakeup (thanks to invincibility of wakeup kick and stun on hit) creates a reversal of momentum. DOA5 has lessened the power of wakeup kicks but I think there should be a chance for the attacker to step or choose an attack that keeps them pressing forward.

That's why I took the VF example. You can wakeup kick as a "get off me" doesn't provide advantage, and doing it too predictably lets the attacker step, or whiff punish you. Just blocking it correctly keeps the ball in the attacker's court, but the defender isn't being slogged continually - they get to create a chance to set things to neutral.

Of course we could be dealing with SF which has invincible wakeup moves that can be cancelled into a safe blockstring or throw cancel 50/50 so lets not forget other games have plenty of ways to reverse momentum too.

 

[x Sypher x]

I honestly think it's only OBVIOUS that the demo is not competitive. I mean come on, it's a DEMO, and it still has flaws that were carried over. Since when does a demo get judged on whether it's viable competitively? (excluding this particular instance) The only time we should be considering this is after the game develops further and the (pre)final product is presented to us. It's only common sense.

 

[Berzerk!]

I honestly think it's only OBVIOUS that the demo is not competitive. I mean come on, it's a DEMO, and it still has flaws that were carried over. Since when does a demo get judged on whether it's viable competitively? (excluding this particular instance) The only time we should be considering this is after the game develops further and the (pre)final product is presented to us. It's only common sense.

No, they are asking for feedback, so we should be considering these issues when we think about what feedback we want to give.