Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience

[Allan Paris]

To put one measly point about DOAD in, Allen said above why is master advocating when noone else is... honestly, a lot of us forgot or did not go indepth enough on that game, and Manny may have a point about its benefits that we do not have. Just because the community isn't requesting it, doesn't mean its not in the community's interest to draw attention to the system in that game, or that the community is educated enough on it to have come up with it "ourselves".

My dude, if you read what I said. Which I know you did. I clearly said that, "I am not saying he's right or wrong. Just that, I'd like a plethora of scientists (more than 1 and myself in the mix of things) to work on a theory before I am willing to take in anything."

I heard the same things about DOAD's system, ok fine. Still, he is the only player of high level tournament play to do that with the game. I am not just going to go off his merits alone. The community, at least the competitive side ignored it, why, the game was produced for a handheld. The mass majority is not going to sit and put in hours on hours for that game. No matter how great it is.

Should it be ignored if it is truly this great, no. But who is going to sit there cramped fingers and all to really find out? Only one man so far, and that my friend, is not good enough.

Furthermore, that system promotes guessing. We don't want that. We want to keep pushing the ideas for situations that reduces guessing. As you see, Manny wants to limit it to '1' hold before serious damage is done (DOAD's System). We want 0 holds before real damage is done. So, if there is anything else so great about that system it needs to be said, because what he's pushing for, DOAD can keep it.

I remember the stun/launch (and generous launch heights) in DOAD as being much clearer rewards for the attacker than in DOA4

Just like DOA4, you can hold those launchers that grant this amazing juggle height. It doesn't matter that a hit on CH or HCH gives me this. My next move (the launcher) can be held before I can get what I want.

 

[Rikuto]

If you are to implement DOAD's counter-hit launch height, and give someone multiple CB options, you are taking game theory and throwing it off the table because every option is too good to not go for. Game theory is important as hell Master, it's the very basis for figuring out your opponents mental state.

Defense really does become random as hell at that point, because everything makes you fearful on CH (and damn near everything results in CH which enforces this problem). When defense becomes super random, so does offense. This absolutely cannot happen.


This is like taking the problem we had with counters doing too much damage and making player behavior totally random, and turning it on its head... making every offensive option in stun just as random and overly beneficial. Turning the game upside down doesn't fix it.

 

[Allan Paris]

Looks like I am getting a Twitter.

 

[d3v]

...that system promotes guessing.

This pretty much sums up what the rest of the FGC see's in DOA.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

This pretty much sums up what the rest of the FGC see's in DOA.

While I agree that everyone wants less guessing involved, I'd say going from 3 or 4 chances to 1 chance is pretty good. Doesn't the CB only give 1 chance? So, it's the same? Either way, the end game is still going to have guessing involved somewhere. I don't see the point in bickering about this any longer.

 

[d3v]

While I agree that everyone wants less guessing involved, I'd say going from 3 or 4 chances to 1 chance is pretty good. Doesn't the CB only give 1 chance? So, it's the same? Either way, the end game is still going to have guessing involved somewhere. I don't see the point in bickering about this any longer.

The issue is more one where the guessing happens. The issue with many is that in DOA, the guessing happes after a "hit confirm." Meaning that your reward for good offense is having to guess. Compare to Street Fighter III, another game that was criticized for having too much guessing due to parries (even UltraDavid quit on the game because of it). The III series was still considered "competitive" because the guessing primarily happens before a combo, during the neutral game - the only time there is guessing after a combo is if the attacking player goes for a reset. Even then however, this split the community, with a good number of players dropping the games (or not playing them at all).

 

[AKNova7]

It also sucks that you can speak for the entire community when you are not really a part of it, as far as I can see. This is where the community is, you pop up only when enough shit is thrown your way, and then you disappear. Your fans, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and whatever other social site does not count. DOAW and FSD is where the community is. I don't need to speak on TKP much, you are there, so you know what it is, ghost town.

No one here or at DOAW is advocating for DOAD's system, so why are you doing it, by yourself for yourself? If you truly represent US (THE COMMUNITY) then please do that; listen to us and roll with our collective ideas on the game. If not, then some new representatives need to be chosen, I have a few in mind. All I read in your post was, "I personally would like, I told them, and what I prefer." All of this stuff you are asking for, IS ALL FOR YOU. This is pretty selfish to me.

I was with you until about here. He expressed to Team Ninja something to think about, his difference in opinion. He's pushing for something he believes, he shouldn't automatically agree with the others because they're the majority. I'm not saying in THIS example, but one, the majority isn't always correct.

Like the following for example:

The advantage you want on hit and stun. I want that on block, something along the lines of +3~8, numbers can definitely be played with here. Just as long as they give a real advantage, only thing to beat the user of frame advantage should be a hold or sidestepping to avoid it. It should be a given that I am at major frame advantage on hit and stun. With holds the way the are, even with them being nerfed. You still have to worry about being held, so your advantage is 50/50 in the stun game.

The only way to beat a user of frame advantage, should be to hold or sidestepping to avoid it, and you want that to be on any kind of MAJORITY of attack strings? That would become the DEFINITION of a twitch fighter. Please tell me you mean the last hit of a string, because not even Safety Fighter (Virtua) goes that far. I know most people hate holds, but that's insane, especially with free cancel and string delay.

Furthermore, that system promotes guessing. We don't want that. We want to keep pushing the ideas for situations that reduces guessing. As you see, Manny wants to limit it to '1' hold before serious damage is done (DOAD's System). We want 0 holds before real damage is done. So, if there is anything else so great about that system it needs to be said, because what he's pushing for, DOAD can keep it.

One more reason some people probably have somewhat of a problem with this, is because outside of the global system, the neutral game kind of sucks donkey balls. Just saying. DOA doesn't even have a useful backdash in most cases, and the community wants high damage guaranteed offense. Come on guys.

I mean, honestly, defense in the game has quite a bit of risk, compared to fighting games with strong neutral game. In Virtua Fighter, to compensate for the damage potential, there's not only substantial offensive risk, but also a very strong neutral game to compensate as the defensive side of the game.

 

[Allan Paris]

I was with you until about here. He expressed to Team Ninja something to think about, his difference in opinion. He's pushing for something he believes, he shouldn't automatically agree with the others because they're the majority. I'm not saying in THIS example, but one, the majority isn't always correct.

That's fine that he's giving his ideas to TN. Unfortunately his ideas is to promote a guessing system. The system does not need to be in place for a CB. WIth the CB in place, there's no need for the system. That systems allows 1 hold the CB allows 0. The CB situation wins in competitive play.

He shouldn't automatically assume that we as a community want the DOAD system. This street you are playing on goes both ways. In this particular situation, I am 100% right, and you and him are wrong for backing this thought process. If he truly represents us, The DOA Community, he should be here with us. He should be consulting with us and pushing our collective ideas to make Dead or Alive 5 a solid fighter. Manny pushing just what he thinks/believes on his own, is not a good look for someone who "represents" a community. That is selfish, no matter how you cut it, period.

The only way to beat a user of frame advantage, should be to hold or sidestepping to avoid it, and you want that to be on any kind of MAJORITY of attack strings? That would become the DEFINITION of a twitch fighter. Please tell me you mean the last hit of a string, because not even Safety Fighter (Virtua) goes that far. I know most people hate holds, but that's insane, especially with free cancel and string delay.

That is asinine to give frame advantage to everything on block. Having particular moves giving frame advantage and some strings having it in the middle or at the end of them. This of course has to vary from character to character. I didn't think I'd have to explain that, but I guess so.

Holding is not "bad" nor do I "hate" it. However, DOA is the only game with a i0 move that is also a huge comeback factor. So, it for damn sure needs to be controlled. So far TN is doing well in that department, more guaranteed situations that disallow holding will suffice, in the end.

One more reason some people probably have somewhat of a problem with this, is because outside of the global system, the neutral game kind of sucks donkey balls. Just saying. DOA doesn't even have a useful backdash in most cases, and the community wants high damage guaranteed offense. Come on guys.

DOA3 has good movement and DOA2U if I recall correctly. DOA4 is where the movement went bad, along with the rest of good competitive fighting game logic. DOA5 seems like it wants to go back to its roots with its movement, DOA3.

I mean, honestly, defense in the game has quite a bit of risk, compared to fighting games with strong neutral game. In Virtua Fighter, to compensate for the damage potential, there's not only substantial offensive risk, but also a very strong neutral game to compensate as the defensive side of the game.

Do not compare VF to DOA. One game is solid and the other is trying to get there. If anything, notes should be taken from VF and worked with to help out DOA. DOA does not have a good neural game, and it needs one. Defense in DOA is fine, my defender will forever have the best move in competitive play. A i0 move that inflicts damage just as long as they are being attacked, yeah, defense is great. Then with the addition of the SS, cool.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

I thought it was made clear a while back that CB is also a 1 chance to hold scenario?(Assuming you do the CB move twice or you are Bayman) So I don't see the difference except that you will get more damage with the CB.

 

[AKNova7]

That's fine that he's giving his ideas to TN. Unfortunately his ideas is to promote a guessing system. The system does not need to be in place for a CB. WIth the CB in place, there's no need for the system. That systems allows 1 hold the CB allows 0. The CB situation wins in competitive play.

He shouldn't automatically assume that we as a community want the DOAD system. This street you are playing on goes both ways. In this particular situation, I am 100% right, and you and him are wrong for backing this thought process. If he truly represents us, The DOA Community, he should be here with us. He should be consulting with us and pushing our collective ideas to make Dead or Alive 5 a solid fighter. Manny pushing just what he thinks/believes on his own, is not a good look for someone who "represents" a community. That is selfish, no matter how you cut it, period.

Everybody has their own viewpoint of what will make something the best it can be. I'd rather him express his opinion and go against the grain than support something he doesn't believe in, especially if he honestly thinks it's what'd make DOA good, regardless if he's correct or not.

Now, if he's just being a fucker for his own personal reasons, that's a different story altogether.


[/Quote]That is asinine to give frame advantage to everything on block. Having particular moves giving frame advantage and some strings having it in the middle or at the end of them. This of course has to vary from character to character. I didn't think I'd have to explain that, but I guess so.

Holding is not "bad" nor do I "hate" it. However, DOA is the only game with a i0 move that is also a huge comeback factor. So, it for damn sure needs to be controlled. So far TN is doing well in that department, more guaranteed situations that disallow holding will suffice, in the end.[/Quote]

You said that's what you'd want on block. Personally, your entire statement and strings together didn't make sense in the first place. If you're getting blocked the entire time, you deserve to be at disadvantage assuming you've traversed through an entire string. But, let's assume that's not the case.

DOA3 has good movement and DOA2U if I recall correctly. DOA4 is where the movement went bad, along with the rest of good competitive fighting game logic. DOA5 seems like it wants to go back to its roots with its movement, DOA3.

While DOA3 had good movement, the backdash still left something to be desired compared to the other 3D fighters I've played with any intent to learn anything.

Do not compare VF to DOA. One game is solid and the other is trying to get there. If anything, notes should be taken from VF and worked with to help out DOA. DOA does not have a good neural game, and it needs one. Defense in DOA is fine, my defender will forever have the best move in competitive play. A i0 move that inflicts damage just as long as they are being attacked, yeah, defense is great. Then with the addition of the SS, cool.

Oh, don't give me that. Personally, I figured you'd were going to go there, so I was prepared.

Make the move two frames slower, block high AND mid, and ignore re-GI's. You now have Soul Calibur IV impacts. Virtua Fighter has reversals as well for specific characters.

Oh, and don't forget Aoi's stance, which, while probably not a zero frame stance transition, isn't exactly slow, and has guaranteed follow-ups.

Point is, is that the DOA reversal isn't that crazy of a mechanic. In fact, to compensate for the quickness, the 4 point counter system, as it's three in standard Virtua reversals, and in Virtua, the speed the strings are coming at you is even slower in most cases than in DOA.

Reversals/Holds aren't really a big deal, and nothing to automatically claim that, even with damage nerfing, holds single-handedly make defense solid. That's beyond unfair to say. As for the neutral game, yes, DOA needs a much better neutral game. I'm tired of wanting to play poke with some characters and getting blown up because I'm -1737394091 on block. It's irritating, but there's a middle ground here, we just have to find it. Personally, I think the middle ground is in blowing up the AWFUL stun system, but I've been told that's probably not possible, so I'm putting that to rest until DOA6.

 

[Allan Paris]

I thought it was made clear a while back that CB is also a 1 chance to hold scenario?(Assuming you do the CB move twice or you are Bayman) So I don't see the difference except that you will get more damage with the CB.

You can only slow escape and then block Bayman's follow up that causes the CB. That is what I am mostly referring to because I hope and would like to see other characters get that as well. As far as other characters doing it, like Kasumi for instance, I am not 100% sure on this or not. Rikuto and DrDogg can shed light on this again.

My understanding of the sit-down stun was that you can't hold the CB flow up. SE'ing then blocking is your only option. Which is why a certain person deem them unnecessary, I believe.

Everybody has their own viewpoint of what will make something the best it can be. I'd rather him express his opinion and go against the grain than support something he doesn't believe in, especially if he honestly thinks it's what'd make DOA good, regardless if he's correct or not.

Wow, just. . . . wow. Why do you think we are or the extreme competitive players are arguing with (almost) his every suggestion? Not for the fuck of it, I can assure you that.

DOA3 had good movement, the backdash still left something to be desired compared to the other 3D fighters I've played with any intent to learn anything.

The game either has good all around movement or not. I know it did, as well as others who spent time with it.

Oh, don't give me that. Personally, I figured you'd were going to go there, so I was prepared.

Make the move two frames slower, block high AND mid, and ignore re-GI's. You now have Soul Calibur IV impacts. Virtua Fighter has reversals as well for specific characters.

Adding frames to it will defeat its original purpose; stopping moves on reaction. The move is not to be relayed on 100%. I don't care what SC has or doesn't have. We are talking about DOA. The reversals in VF will get you slaughtered mercilessly if you try to rely on them. I play with Pai, trust, landing reversals in that game is not what you are making them out to be. Hell, even if I managed to land one, the shit honestly isn't worth it.

Oh, and don't forget Aoi's stance, which, while probably not a zero frame stance transition, isn't exactly slow, and has guaranteed follow-ups.

Point is, is that the DOA reversal isn't that crazy of a mechanic. In fact, to compensate for the quickness, the 4 point counter system, as it's three in standard Virtua reversals, and in Virtua, the speed the strings are coming at you is even slower in most cases than in DOA.

Reversals are character specific and, I pretty much just explained that deal to you. In DOA holds are crazy, I suggest you play the game and see what everyone else sees.

Holds aren't really a big deal, and nothing to automatically claim that, even with damage nerfing, holds single-handedly make defense solid. That's beyond unfair to say. As for the neutral game, yes, DOA needs a much better neutral game. I'm tired of wanting to play poke with some characters and getting blown up because I'm -1737394091 on block. It's irritating, but there's a middle ground here, we just have to find it. Personally, I think the middle ground is in blowing up the AWFUL stun system, but I've been told that's probably not possible, so I'm putting that to rest until DOA6.

Tell me, what fighting game have you played besides DOA. That has i0 move that lets you comeback from losing whenever you want? Get back to me on that whenever you find the game. HAHAHA, what DOA are you playing where you're at the much disadvantage on block (if anything the attacker is at that much of disadvantage)? I will wait for you to find that version of DOA for me. DOA 3.1 did a great job with frame advantage, but I doubt you are talking about that game because it wasn't as extreme as you are saying it is.

 

[Skilletor]

It blows my mind every time somebody likens any other game's counters to DoA's.

I then realize I will never agree with such a person.

 

[MrMoon360]

Now, if he's just being a fucker for his own personal reasons, that's a different story altogether.

Ya don't say..

 

[just_me]

So in the DoAD system launch height post-stun depends on the initial hit condition/dmg modifier and not stun threshold? Well that's better than DoA4, but I'd still prefer unified launch height (for a given launcher) post stun. (H)CHit Stun->Launch- setups will do more damage anyway I'm not sure if you really need an extra boost just for landing a Counter Hit. Especially if you stun someone with a HCH you most probably did not read the opponent correctly, you just got lucky while poking around (otherwise going for a direct launch, giving the opponent 0 chances to hold, would be better, no?). The game should not give you (a potential) extra reward for getting lucky...
Well or you went for a safer option, but in that case less reward is appropriate as well.

I think a single CB move per character is fine, it's certainly better than multiple moves that can be used in the same situation. There is this specific situation and the attacker wants to use the CB move, since it's a lot better than the other options in the scenario... the defender knows that, but the attacker knows ... and so on. That's an interesting mind game with educated guesses. If the attacker could use one of three CB moves that lead more or less to the same outcome, the whole thing falls apart... it's just rock-paper-scissors for both players, which is not interesting at all... it's pure guessing.
Although I think additional CB moves at the end of certain strings could be interesting, it obviously should not be possible to free cancel the string and mix-up with the regular CB move (because the stun does not grant enough advantage for the regular CB, the opponent is out of range etc.)

 

[DrDogg]

One more reason some people probably have somewhat of a problem with this, is because outside of the global system, the neutral game kind of sucks donkey balls. Just saying. DOA doesn't even have a useful backdash in most cases, and the community wants high damage guaranteed offense. Come on guys.

The backdash in DOA5 varies from character to character. However, some characters have a very good backdash (Akira comes to mind) and all characters can guard cancel their backdash.

You can only slow escape and then block Bayman's follow up that causes the CB. That is what I am mostly referring to because I hope and would like to see other characters get that as well. As far as other characters doing it, like Kasumi for instance, I am not 100% sure on this or not. Rikuto and DrDogg can shed light on this again.

My understanding of the sit-down stun was that you can't hold the CB flow up. SE'ing then blocking is your only option. Which is why a certain person deem them unnecessary, I believe.

For the most part, any character that has a sit down stun can use the same setup Bayman has. The problem is that not all CBs are equal and not all sit down stuns are equal. For instance, Kasumi's primary sit down stun (at the moment) is her 66KK. It isn't anywhere near as effective as Bayman's 3K. Also, Christie has one of the slowest CB attacks in the game, which makes it more difficult to use in combos.

All of that is just a matter of balancing, which is still being done. However, I did suggest removing the ability to SE out of sit down stuns. I'm not sure how far that suggestion will go, and it's not a huge concern, but I think the game would be better overall if you couldn't slow escape out of a sit down stun.

 

[RikWeaN]

Yeah, you shouldn't be able to slow escape out of stuns. Any of them. What's the deal with slow escaping anyway ? What a dumb mechanic, why suddently give players an alternative to defensive holds ? DOA4 was such a crappy game. Shouldn't be able to escape stuns, at all. Oh but then stuns would become overpowered, there are so many of them. Well then, just reduce the number of stun moves. Along with string delay, what's the deal with that ? Dumb mechanic. Let's take that out too.
Oh but then the game becomes VF with counters... but I already have that game on my shelf, I can play it whenever I want to.

Let's just strip down DOA of all that sets it apart so it becomes a pale copy of VF. That'll do some good.

 

[d3v]

The problem is, alot of what makes DOA unique to most people is also what makes it a terrible competitive fighter.

 

[MajesticBlue]

I have a few questions if you guys dont mind. Are most cb moves mid? Also lets say you max out the stun threshold and you just go for a launch mixup instead. What launch height do you get? If it followed the Doad stuns it would be a Hi counter blow height.

If everybody only has one cb move the mixup would be between that and your best launcher thats not the same hit type as the cb. On stuns that sitdown or crush highs it limits some options. The other stuns at cb time would be a three way mixup that either guarantees damage or they try and hold your cb but you launch them at hi counter height. I could kinda see how that is too much.

So the changes in the buffer system make it possible to back dash cancel into a guard without returning to neutral? That is a major buff to movement if so. If they wanted the game to have more space control it would be nice to see getting hit while backdashing not be a hi counter. Being able to cancel into a guard should remedy this though. I wonder if with the new normal hit launchers could be used for wiff punishment........even though they are few and slow.

 

[CyberEvil]

I'd say that a lot of what makes DoA unique has contributed to making certain versions terrible from a competitive perspective. I would definitely not say that they are wholly responsible. Zero-frame counters aren't really helping things, but with enough checks and balances they could contribute to being competitive rather than laughable. They're moving in the right direction. Stuns seem to be as well. Time will tell.

 

[RikWeaN]

The problem is, alot of what makes DOA unique to most people is also what makes it a terrible competitive fighter.

Maybe the point of the series is to be a terrible competitive fighter. Yeah I know, it's kinda hard to admit, but think about it for a sec. DOA was all about being a more accessible Virtua Fighter right from the start, just look at DOA1, it was basically a poor man's VF.